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"18th C. Fantasy / Horror / Pulp and Sci-Fi" Topic

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The last four villagers from Blue Moon's Romanian set, as painted by PhilGreg Painters.

4,584 hits since 24 Nov 2010
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Comments or corrections?

abdul666lw24 Nov 2010 9:16 a.m. PST

Yes, real possibilities.
Mid-18th C. Sci-Fi = Lacepunk – mid-18th C. being (in Europe) the Age of the 'Lace Wars' TMP link , and Victorian Sci-Fi being, if not exactly the same, to a large extent overlapping with 'Steampunk' as 'Sci-Fi in the Age of Steam'.
with indeed historical (contemporary) precedents: picture

18th C. Fantasy / Pulp / Horror?
Latest relevant TMP thread: TMP link (with links)

On my blog, to keep all informations relative to a given topic together I tend to treat each post as a 'folder', with the initial messages (generally edited & amplified afterwards) as the first 'file' in the folder, and to add new 'files' as *comments*. Totally Google-reader unfriendly, since the updates are not spotted, but a complement to 'labels' to easily and exhaustively retrieve later all informations relevant to a given subject.
Thus my 'Lace Wars Sci-Fi and Fantasy' post of sept. 2009 link has more than trebled and is developed in now 54 comments about diverse (yet hopefully relevant) topics:
7 very recent ones (somehow I'm now limited to 4,096 characters / comment) are devoted to suggestions about the adaptation of Japanese 'Hellsing' to a mid-18th C. (quasi-)European setting (such as Pangaea… link ) and to what miniatures are propitious to conversions to specific characters & types….
Older comments try to address, at least on a preliminary level:
Earthlings on Mars, Martians, origin and nature of life on Mars,
Christian clergy on Mars: missionaries or demon hunters;
Munchausenian steamtanks & APC, air power and H&M warfare;
Demons and political correctness, biology and ethics of vampires, reproductive strategy of long-lived species (Elves…), minis and painting for 18th C. vampires, werewolves and undeads, aluminium and 'supernatural' creatures;
War Hammer Chaos Gods <-> 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse <-> 3 'functions' of Indo-European mythologies, the 5th Rider;
Wargaming in the 'Monster Blood Tattoo' Half-Continent;
SYW Horror / Pulp.

Hope a few will be intrigued, even interested?

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP24 Nov 2010 10:51 a.m. PST

As soon as you said "punk", you lost me.
I hate the term.

The Gray Ghost24 Nov 2010 11:30 a.m. PST

Wargaming in the 'Monster Blood Tattoo'

This three volume tome is a must have for anyone remotely interested in 18th century fantasy.

DyeHard24 Nov 2010 11:51 a.m. PST

Hey John, substitute the term "speculative fiction" for "punk".

I had to go off on a fellow who said "That VSF and Steampunk were the same thing".

The "punk" is derived from the term Cyberpunk, and reefers to the dark oppressive dystopia, not the science fiction aspect. Very sadly all types of alternate history and historical setting speculative fiction is now called …Punk. It grates on my ears/eyes but I try and look past it to see if there is value behind the label.

the 15mm VSF Page:

abdul666lw24 Nov 2010 3:16 p.m. PST

Indeed 'futuristic' (set in the future) science-fiction ecompasses many subgenres and 'cyberpunk' is only one of them (though the *background* of e.g. the 'Alien' series); 'space opera' as exemplified by E.E. 'Doc' Smith's 'Lensmen' is another, 'serious' scienific speculation (A.C. Clarke's 'Rendezvous with Rama') is a third.
In the same way it can be argued that 'steampunk' corresponds only to a subgenre of science-fiction set in the 2nd half of the 19th C. (obsessed with rivets? But indeed generally not dystopian, so the term may be misleading), mainstream 'VSF' to another (colonial expeditions on Mars, 'alternate' Fenian war?) and Vernes' novels to a third.
The content of words is progressively set by usage, otherwise *all* science-fiction set between,say, 1850 -1905 could be called 'VSF'.

I use 'Lacepunk' essentially because it is short – 'SF in the Age of Reason' is a mouthful. Besides, while 'Napoleonic SF' would be as unambiguous and universally understood as 'VSF', how would you call SF set during the 'Lace Wars'? Frederician SF? Maria-Theresan SF? Not to speak of 'Ludovician SF', with 18 'Louis' in France only it would be meaningless. 'Munchausenian SF' can be considered, but would not cover the Horror / Pulp 'fringe' of 'steampunk' as generally used, which can be also be covered by 'Lacepunk'.

Then, I think words / labels are less important than their *content*: at 66 I heard politicians for too long to stop at *words*.

napthyme24 Nov 2010 3:39 p.m. PST

Where did you find the picture of the sky ships?

The Gray Ghost24 Nov 2010 4:19 p.m. PST

Also check out G P Taylors works Shadowmancer and Wormwood, Joseph DeLaneys The Last Apprentice series and The Cabinet of Wonders by Marie Rutkoski.

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP24 Nov 2010 6:37 p.m. PST

I know exactly where "punk" is derived from.
It makes it easy to reject things if I see it attached to anything.
"Lacepunk"? I cannot see Benjamin Franklin or Voltaire as the Ramones. Thus I reject it, and in the process save a lot of money.

DyeHard24 Nov 2010 7:16 p.m. PST

Perhaps you should read up on Franklin's commentary on Beer and Flatulence. Perhaps "punk" is not that far off.

Personal logo Cardinal Hawkwood Supporting Member of TMP25 Nov 2010 4:49 a.m. PST

"punk rampant"..Shakespeare used the term …has to be ok

abdul666lw25 Nov 2010 5:10 a.m. PST

Where did you find the picture of the sky ships?

On the 'Gaslight Rules', in the file 'Age of Reason', with the battle report and 'statistics' of the various contraptions. Then, you have to be a member to access.
Unfortunately -despite the *lot* of work involved in the modelling- the author never posted other battle reports (and does not reply to e-mail). Really too bad.

? I'd think 'Sex Pistols' -but I'm not a specialist (no, when it comes to Gene Vincent, Eddy Cochrane or Buddy Holly…)

@The Gray Ghost: thanks for the references.

Personal logo Cardinal Hawkwood Supporting Member of TMP25 Nov 2010 5:36 a.m. PST

Ramones are American punk..

abdul666lw25 Nov 2010 6:44 a.m. PST

Re. the pics, I provided links to them as they are so evocative, eye-candy and inspirational -but I cheated a little, the game was associated with the siege of Vienna (1683) and thus outside the 'tricorne era'.
Btw the design of the flying ships is 'historical': the creation of a (17th C. at most) jesuit: picture

'Munchausenian Science-Fiction' would still be a mouthful, and 'mid-18th C. SF' is not (yet!) known enough for the initials MSF to be immediately understood the way 'VSF' is (well, at least among us: question a person next door about 'VSF' and he / she will hesitate between:
- an IST,
- a new tax,
- a political party.)

@ The OFM: punk -or is goth?- tricornes: picture link
picture ??

Re. Hellsing: if at all possible ignore the TV series and view the OVA ('Hellsing Ultimate'): the whole TV anime barely corresponds to the 1st volume of the OVA and nonetheless the rich characters and their complex relationships are hardly explored; the TV series is hobbled by 'political correctness' -and a lot of visual references (Alucard <=> Cleant Eastwood in westerns and as Dirty Harry…) are simply ignored.

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP25 Nov 2010 8:21 a.m. PST

IOf it has "punk" in the title, I ain't buying it.

abdul666lw25 Nov 2010 9:50 a.m. PST

I'm not trying to sell anything -at most to perhaps give rise to a vocation or three.

abdul666lw25 Nov 2010 1:49 p.m. PST

Attempting to reach a wider audience: TMP link

abdul666lw26 Nov 2010 6:53 a.m. PST

This three volume tome ["Monster Blood Tattoo"] is a must have for anyone remotely interested in 18th century fantasy.

Indeed -though despite the vocabulary (alchemists'…) I'd characterize it as Science-Fiction rather than Fantasy link ; simply the 'amazingly advanced sciences' are biology and biochemistry rather than mechanics and physics in most 'mainstream' SF. The 'biological enhancements' are fully equivalent to the cyborg organs and limbs of the worshippers of the Machine God in WH40K -and somehow reminiscent of 'A Planet Named Shayol' link

Closer to Fantasy, Keyes' Age of Unreason tetralogy: link has much to commend. But I'm uncertain about the wargaming potential: firstly, with 'krafpistols' equivalent to Barsoomian radium rifles, submarines, airships and radio -not to speak of meteors as overkill weapons of mass destruction- one would no longer be playing European mid-18th C. linear warfare we know and love, but something akin to the Spanish Civil War with minis in WSS / GNW uniforms.
Then in the books the situation is totally unbalanced: a bunch of 'ordinary' people desperately resist the hordes of "Angels"' human puppets -and eventually have to make a sacrifice in some mystical dimension to change the very fabric of the Universe in the past…

Scorpio26 Nov 2010 9:08 a.m. PST

Yeah, the -punk suffix has only been around 30 years or so, can't expect John the OFM to like all that newfangled speak. :}

Personal logo Cardinal Hawkwood Supporting Member of TMP26 Nov 2010 3:47 p.m. PST

Punk has been around longer than that i think doesn't bpgart use the term in whichever movie?

Personal logo Cardinal Hawkwood Supporting Member of TMP26 Nov 2010 3:49 p.m. PST

I think having read the dictionary the term Punk is fine..

abdul666lw29 Nov 2010 2:27 a.m. PST

More recent relevant TMP thread (and NOT started by me!): TMP link

abdul666lw29 Nov 2010 1:44 p.m. PST

And yet another one: TMP link

abdul666lw04 Dec 2010 4:59 a.m. PST

Those curious about the good Baron Munchausen's improvements on the war engines depicted in the Da Vinci Code and the experimental weapons designed by that young Colonial Benjamin Franklin to use the power of the thunderflash of lightning, should subscribe to that Gazette entitled 'Gaslightrules Group' link (it's free) to peruse and enjoy Jeff "bogdanwaz" W's. two portfolios of fascinating and inspirational illustrations entitled 'Age of Reason' link and 'Ben Franklin's War' link .

Now, about celeriferes and with an ample pinch of salt, a work of passionate dedication link wink

abdul666lw19 Dec 2010 7:15 a.m. PST

A very short incident – but (I can say it, it's not from me!) exemplar: link

abdul666lw13 Jul 2011 12:05 a.m. PST

Potentially inspirational:
18th C. Fantasy / Horror / Pulp:
TMP link
TMP link
TMP link
18th C. Sci-Fi:
TMP link
TMP link
TMP link

28mmMan13 Jul 2011 9:28 a.m. PST

I like the idea of the Lace Punk…but the name is a bit unsettling, seems ungainly.

I agree with the VSF and Steam Punk comparison from above. Perhaps the same could be true for this thread direction…rather than Lace Punk, how about BSF or BSA?

After all if something is not Baroque why fix it?

Baroque Science Fiction
Baroque Science Fantasy
Baroque Science Adventure

Baroque still sets the mood with lace, velvet fashion, duels, and plenty of gold leaf :)

spontoon13 Jul 2011 9:43 a.m. PST

Dear, oh dear. Is being the commander of Frederick the Great's armies, or any other 18th. century commander's; not enough of a fantasy for you?

However, I am a fan of Ben Franklin's attitude towards beer and can see him and Voltaire as the Ramones! No electric guitars, so would they substitute sackbut and dudel-sack?

28mmMan13 Jul 2011 11:21 a.m. PST

Ben I think would play his Glass Armonica


François-Marie would most likely have been the front man, pulling an early Jim Morrison routine of sneaking poetry into the lyrics.


Both appearing as the FreeMasons at the Loge des Neuf Soeurs!

Fisherking13 Jul 2011 12:07 p.m. PST

John perhaps I could interest you in a punkpunk game setting? I agree that at this point adding the word punk to a setting is the same as adding the word gate to a political scandal. Annoying.

abdul666lw13 Jul 2011 2:26 p.m. PST

Ben Franklins Wars at Cold War 2011:
A teaser, re. Benjamin F's wtudies on harmonics:


28mmMan13 Jul 2011 3:25 p.m. PST

That construct as well as the others found within the link, just ridiculous.

How much fun would that be?! Lots that's how much!

Finally a use for all those stuffy historical miniatures…huzzah!


Blackwolf106614 Jul 2011 3:43 a.m. PST

Abdul is the man! Why not Lacepunk it's only a name,call it what you like…

abdul666lw14 Jul 2011 7:24 a.m. PST

Parallel thread (more specialized):
TMP link

[Old thread: TMP link Did not realized that I'm pestering TMP readers for at least 4 years with my pet ideas: how time flies!]

Relevant thread: TMP link
and how it turned out eventually (excerpts: peruse the blog):
{Btw Robert, we are still to discover 18th C. Melnibonean Elves War Dancers and Wytches, and hoping for Ornithopters: according to the name they would have bird-like [feathered] wings, or at least if with bat / Da Vinci wing, would be made of mobile 'flaps' a little like junk sails, 'closed' when the wing moves down, 'open' when it moves up; hull = a kind of narrow drakkar with a bird of prey head & tail rather than a dragon's?).
Btw this:

= seems from a video game, but which one?
Then YouTube link (not recent but inspirational, though too 'modern' for the Lace Wars; for that matter, the crew is in 'Napoleonic' shakos).

Recent inspirations of diverse kinds:
TMP link (the zombie priest can be used in many periods, and the zombie bride paint-converted to a baroque / rococo dress).

TMP link ('authentic' for a 18th C. adventure)

TMP link (hope the range will move back to the Lace Wars).

TMP link
What about Frederick, de Saxe, even Jeanne de Pompadour?

TMP link (other [Chaos] Dwarves engines such as the Grendel / Leviathan 'Goliath' TMP link and the OG 'Steam wagon' link -preferably with spoked wheels to look less 'archaic / medieval'- could be converted to 'alternate' Lace Wars contraptions, the small ones maybe more suitable for 1/72 or 15mm crews, with a somehow 'Indian Juggernaut' look?).

TMP link (easily set during the FIW; symmetrically YouTube link YouTube link can be pushed back a good half a century).

YouTube link
YouTube link
Can easily be turned 'Munchausenian' rather than 'Bergeracquesque'.

Well, even YouTube link YouTube link can be inspirational: the previous rendition YouTube link showed a tricorne…

Speaking of {were?}wolves, both Cipher "Jaws" link and GW "Thing in the Woods" link with a little paint conversion would make great 'tamed' armored warbeasts of the "Brotherhood of the Wolf" 'Bete' type

Not recent but I just came across him, Alucard link in 'quasi 18th C. / baroque' rendition

= : inspirational for a transposition of 'Hellsing Ultimate' link to a Lace Wars setting: link link

Another possible adaptation: Lovecraft's 'Lurking Fear' link to a FIW setting. Copplestone Yetis would make good Martenses (albinos with heterochomia) but lack variety; maybe Crocodile Wendigos, their horns removed? Or some types of humanoid almost naked ghouls?

abdul666lw05 Aug 2011 3:06 a.m. PST


Lacepunk TMP link skyships [Three Musketeers – 2011] YouTube link
18th C. 'Pulp' inspiration:

Recent threads:
'Historical' minis vs 'weirdness':
TMP link
Zombies across time:
TMP link
Set later, but easily transposed to the 'Lace Wars' times
TMP link
Vidocq's X Files:
TMP link
(for the 18th C. think 'City of Vice' link 'Garrow's Law' link 'Nicolas Le Floch' YouTube link )
Pride and Prejudice and Zombies:
TMP link
YouTube link
(for the 18th C. think Barry Lyndon!).

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