"Free shipping offer, should I pay large brokerage fees?" Topic

Seeking advice here.
I placed an order with a UK company, who I won't name but who are at the higher end of the price scale, as a result of which I am only willing to buy from them if I'm able to get their product used, or at a discount.

Now when I placed the order I was taking advantage of a free shipping offer, to quote from the companies website:
"We…as an incentive to customers to make those larger orders set an order value level from time to time that is POST FREE"

Well the order arrived both promptly and complete, and there were no charges upon delivery. However a month or so after the order arrived I had a letter from a company called TNT express requesting that I pay them not only the tax and duty on the order (a very reasonable 5% for my location), but also a substantial brokerage fee (that would add roughly 13 % to the order value). I sent them a cheque for the 5% tax, with a covering letter, but I've since been contacted by them saying they will take action against me if I don't pay the rest of the balance they were requesting.

Now the UK company I dealt with also say on their website:
"Import Taxes (outside the UK); ……. Ltd is not responsible for any charges the customer may have to pay in taxes or customs duty. We suggest customers contact their local customs office to establish what additional charges may be incurred on importation"

So my question is, do I have to pay not only the tax and duty as per the website description, but also the quite hefty brokerage charge as well? I've had roughly 100 packages over the last few years, from various international sellers and have never been hit by more than a very minor brokerage fee (never more than the value of the tax itself). If I'd known about this in advance, I probably wouldn't have placed the order as there are better value suppliers of product from the same company and it's competitors elsewhere and although most companies charge shipping, they are at least completely transparent about what you will be paying.

If the company I dealt with offer free shipping, shouldn't they also meet the brokerage fees, as long as I pay the tax as per their website description?

Any opinions would be welcome!

Cheers,

Andy

Why on earth would Foundry (you gave it away, quoting from their postal rates page) be responsible for paying the fees associated with collecting tax and duty? That's strictly between you and the express shipping company.

But ultimately, the issue regarding your paying tax and duty (which in turn *triggers* the brokerage fee) on toy soldiers is between you and your government! (Consider having a tea party…)

It *would* be a good idea to let Foundry know that TNT Express charges a substantial brokerage fee when collecting tax and duty; they may be unaware of that, and could consider changing to a more customer-friendly shipping option to Canadian customers.

Never had any issues here in the US, as there is no duty on toy soldiers; Foundry packages just come straight through the post. (Although with increased postal rates, they may have gone to a courier service more recently, and I wouldn't know about it; but in any case, as we do not pay duty, there would be no brokerage fees.)

This is what UK customers frequently complain about, when a high-value shipment triggers VAT (and possibly duty) charges, and also VAT on the postage, and then a hefty fee to collect the same.

Allen

Yes, unfortunately, which usually only gets levied on large orders such as yours.

I'm surprised they delivered the items to you before payment however.

Sadly no, most companies have boilerplate statements that they are not responsible for any import duties, taxes, or other "fees" (another nice word for an involuntary tax you have to pay).

You might ask the broker for a breakdown of their fees, but I doubt it will do you any good in terms of reducing the amount you will have to pay.

I had this happen on a large order of swim fins I placed for our club, coming into the USA from Canada. Anytime a courier company gets involved in a shipment, there may be brokerage fees levied, so I recommend avoiding those if you can.

Being a fellow Canadian (in Ontario), and owner of a miniature company which imports from countries all over the world and exports as well, I can tell you that brokerage companies have a 30 day delay in sending you their brokerage fee bills. You are indeed responsible for said fees and must pay them…no exceptions. They do have the right to take action. The company that you purchased from is not responsible for any duties nor brokerage fees. They provided you with free shipping as indicated. I know and understand how you feel, however, both the miniature company and brokerage company are playing by the rules. If you have had over 100 packages and not been hit with these fees, then count your lucky stars and be thankful you have gone unscathed up to this point. Pay it, and enjoy your purchase.

Andy,
Nothing can make me more mad than those scum "brokers".In good old times ,we called them pirates and hang them.It happened to me ,I would order some figures and such,this guys stop it on the border,and with the blessing of the government,demand a ransom.They do nothing for you:I did imported some stuff from the USA in the past;I would go through the commercial customs and do this brokerage thing on a terminal in seconds.Parasites!It seems that "brokers" would rob me only when i would use courier services.That is why I always ask people to send me parcels by US Postal Service.
I paid the fee on a $ 270 parcel, but also on a one that was only $36.I do not remember the amounts ,but for the $270 USD parcel ,I paid a lot.
I do not mind paying tax to the government(well,I do,but that is different story),but hate to be taken as a fool.

Thanks for all the advice, it sounds like I'll just have to pay out, although it's rather frustrating as I could have ordered the books and minis from the Amazon and the Warstore

Allen,
Thanks for the reply and top marks for initiative in revealing my source! :)
Having lived in both the UK and Canada, I certainly appreciate the generally more reasonable costs for goods over here. That being said however, shouldn't Foundry's website be more transparent and also list brokerage as something the customer pays, in line with what TopGunAce suggests?

Since I've had many orders from the UK with much more reasonable brokerage rates, there are certainly better options available, at least for the person on the receiving end of the package, most companies use Royal Mail, which where taxes/duties are levied results in a purely nominal brokerage fee when the order arrives.

TopGunAce,
They supplied a breakdown, which is why I sent a cheque for the taxes. The Other fees included "disbursement" and tax on their expenses for collecting the tax!

Hitman,
I have often paid duty and brokerage in the past, but it's never been as big a sum or as big a proportion of the order value as this brokerage company is asking. I usually pay without question, but the total fees here (including the tax which I don't mind paying) amounted to what approached twenty percent of my order value, so seemed unreasonably steep.

Cheers, Andy

Nevals,
Thanks for the moral support!
Andy

"That being said however, shouldn't Foundry's website be more transparent and also list brokerage as something the customer pays, in line with what TopGunAce suggests?"

I don't see why. Hitman lays it out accurately. It's not an issue of transparency. Foundry indicates they are not responsible for any charges for taxes or customs duty, and that is correct. A brokerage fee is a commercial transaction between the courier and the recipient in cases where such a fee applies. It simply is not the sender's business.

A customer needs to be cognizant of what delivery charges may apply in his country, as well as possible duty, or tax if it applies. There are many other threads on this same TMP board in which Canadian TMPers bemoan the unexpected charges they have had to pay (more often from the US than from the UK, but the same principle applies). So it really shouldn't be a surprise. It sounds like, as Hitman suggests, you've been lucky in the past.

(I had cited the same Foundry postage page on another thread earlier today, so it really wasn't detective work…)

Allen

I'm just kind of curious about this, as I read posts like this from time to time, and am ignorant about this process.

In any other context that I am aware of, a "brokerage" firm is obligated to make contact both buyer and seller and disclose fees or a fee scale prior to the action taking place.

If a manufacturer contacts a courier to ship a package without the recipient even knowing, how is it a commercial transaction between the courier and the recipient? And how can the courier get away with not disclosing the fees prior to delivery of the parcel?

That being said however, shouldn't Foundry's website be more transparent and also list brokerage as something the customer pays, in line with what TopGunAce suggests?

Yes just like those mugs that say 'coffee is hot'. We cannot work these things out for ourselves, I want my mommy.

To me, that's a new phenomenon for shipments from The Foundry. I am now going to think thrice before ordering from them, in case my order might be handled by the same brokerage.

Of course, their failure to honour their offer of free shipment with respect to a certain collection for which free shipment was very clearly stated on the North American view of their website has not exactly endeared them to me…

@sector51 a.k.a. Justin of VVV: Rather than posting abuse, how about either making a constructive post or not posting at all?

I am happy with my comments – it is a big question of our society, how much responsibility do we take for our actions.

Should I just order away and expect someone else to handle everything for me or should I be expected to understand the customs process for my country?

Yes we have cups of coffee labelled as may be hot, for those of us who have not woken up to the fact.

But I do appreciate that there are those like Skeptic who cannot take responsibility in life.

Andy,

My sympathies. I no longer order come companies that ship any way other than national postal systems because of the outrageous brokerage fees.

Bob

Sector 51,

I can appreciate your take on this as i would generally feel the same on many issues. However I've placed many international orders in the past, for miniatures and other items. Most shippers use Royal Mail from the UK or USPS from the U.S. and although tax and brokerage will be charged on larger orders, the brokerage from Canada Post doesn't add significantly to the order (in my previous experience a sum usually less than or equal to the value of the tax itself and quite reasonable to pay). The sum I'm being asked to pay here is much more than say Fedex or DHL charge for the same service (and I'm aware of several TMP threads regarding concern there).

My concern here is really that my first request for payment was from a third party that I'd never even heard of before (I didn't have the option of selecting the shipping company or broker, as IrishSerb points out), and added enough to the cost that I wouldn't have placed the order if I'd known in advance (in their defence the shipping company delivered very promptly, days rather than weeks, but my order was for a series of books and some minis not organs for a transplant, vaIuables, or anything else I might need urgently). As a comparison, the Warstore in the U.S. for example may not offer free shipping, but they give you a notable discount on figures from the same manufacturer as well as a remarkably good degree of control and transparency throughout the order process.

Andy

Again, not the companies' fault. They're selecting shipping systems based on cost and efficiency, which results in this case in Foundry's being able to offer free shipping with a certain level of purchase.

Again, the problem starts with tax and duty. Take it up with your elected representatives.

Allen

IrishSerb, Skeptic, Bob in Edmonton,

Thanks for your input. I think in future I'll definitely follow Bob's suggestion on this and plan who I place my orders with more carefully, after confirming which shipping service they use.

Cheers,

Andy

Allen,

I both appreciate and value your input here, but the company does already charge a large markup for their international customers (itself the subject of many threads on TMP and comments whenever Foundry advertise here), since you have to shop by location and can't pay the current rate for the goods in Pounds Sterling.

In my previous experience with many other companies the removal of the UK VAT charge from the order is usually sufficient to meet most of the additional shipping cost of an international order beyond the ten or twenty percent that most places charge for local shipping, as well as cover the local Alberta tax of five percent and any associated brokerage fees that are usually purely nominal.

To offer a comparison, ordering from Copplestone in the past I paid the actual value of the minis in Sterling, a transparent ten percent shipping and although I can't recall the tax and brokerage charged, it certainly wasn't enough to prompt me to join TMP and start a forum thread.

Andy

Sector 51,

I can appreciate your take on this as i would generally feel the same on many issues. However I've placed many international orders in the past, for miniatures and other items. Most shippers use Royal Mail from the UK or USPS from the U.S. and although tax and brokerage will be charged on larger orders, the brokerage from Canada Post doesn't add significantly to the order (in my previous experience a sum usually less than or equal to the value of the tax itself and quite reasonable to pay). The sum I'm being asked to pay here is much more than say Fedex or DHL charge for the same service (and I'm aware of several TMP threads regarding concern there).

Now there are limits to what I can do with Royal Mail, 2kg weight limit on airmail, no tracking info as examples so it is often better to send via a courier. I know the fees I am liable to face if goods are coming to me from outside EU. In fact such issues are discussed quite often on TMP.

It is a common trap to fall into for us British, prices in the USA are so much lower. Well not after you factor in the taxes (also paid on the postage BTW) and the fee for charging you those taxes.

My concern here is really that my first request for payment was from a third party that I'd never even heard of before (I didn't have the option of selecting the shipping company or broker, as IrishSerb points out), and added enough to the cost that I wouldn't have placed the order if I'd known in advance

But those are the rules which have been in place for years, if you had known about them you would have been able to make an informed choice. However you did not know, now who is responsible for that, others should have made it their business to tell you or that you should find out for yourself.

I remember how shocked I was to find out that in New Zealand, that it is not a requirement to have car insurance. I had been driving for 6 weeks amongst drivers who could have seriously injured me without having the means to cover my medical bill. Well you can be certain that I check now about local laws when I drive in a different country.

As a comparison, the Warstore in the U.S. for example may not offer free shipping, but they give you a notable discount on figures from the same manufacturer as well as a remarkably good degree of control and transparency throughout the order process.

That is the advantage of a local seller, they take the pain out of doing business with other countries (but they will have to take the pain on themselves). The EU has made shipping stuff around Europe a breeze, just post it, no forms or additional taxes involved.

But you have learned a lesson for a cheap cost, be aware of what is happening when you enter into a transaction.

Sector 51,

Thanks for your take on this and the examples you've given to illustrate your point. That's a scary thought about driving in New Zealand, although I read somewhere that a large proportion (can't remember the details) of drivers on the roads in the UK (and presumably elsewhere) are not insured and quite a number aren't even qualified to drive after having had their licence revoked or suspended.

Unfortunately for many gaming products there is often no local seller in Canada, so you have to deal internationally (for example through the Warstore in the U.S. who I have had a very positive experience with in the past).

Cheers, Andy

"…and the fee for charging you those taxes".

Wow, a tax (aka fee), on a tax, just to add insult to injury.

I hope our local politicians don't think of that.

AlbertaAndy;
Just to let you know…we now also pay both GST (5%) and PST (8%) on orders, brokerage fees, and duty, as well as a postal fee of $5 USD plus the 13% HST. Ordering from overseas is becoming a huge issue in Ontario. So I do empathize with you.
Regards,
Hitman

OK< what the hex is a brokerage company anyway? What do they do? Is it a 'shipping' company by another name?

Fees for customs brokers services are the charges that can really catch you by surprise. Courier companies and postal services use customs brokers to get packages processed through Canada Customs at the Canadian border. Fees for that service will be passed along to you.

In the UK the brokerage fee described is the fee for the shipper to act as your customs agent/customs broker – potentially that means that they have to have someone go in and stand in customs physically to ID the package and detail and match its contents with a customs official, so they essentially have to have someone on standby all the time and to go in and pay the fee for you. Royal Mail charge 8GBP for this service whatever the duty level paid.

You always have the option to do it yourself – any of the courier will do this (even once the shipment has been picked up from the sender in my experience) – but having had to do that in the middle of the night in winter at a customs yard at Stansted airport for work imports, Im more than happy to pay Royal Mail that 8GBP for my personal ones.

Now I learnt all that because I had to deal with imported materials at work, if I had't ever had to do that then the fees would have been a surprise, and an irritation, to me.

COuriers seem to vary quite wildly on their fee – I do not know why, it might be that one charges one fee if it just chunters through and a more expensive one if they have to attend in person while another courier charges a flat rate on every parcel and another based on a percentage of the fees paid – as you can see Im guessing at different charging strategies. Either way I have found FedEx and DHL to have charged me the lowest fees in my personal experience, whereas the others are considerably more expensive.

Either way they seem to be a bit more expensive than Royal Mail, although I did get a FedEx one a coupla years back where the fee was something like 2GBP. None of that lot compare with the fees chargeable by some dedicated customs agents, but then those people can deal with some seriously complex stuff which in comparison to which our 'figures from a retail source outside of the country' are a trivial exercise….