"What's wrong with FOW" Topic

1) Overly complex
2) Too many special rules
3) Just right
4) Overly simplistic
5) Not enough depth
6) Should have an armored vehicle lucky hit table
7) Should be less biased in favor of the Germans
8) Rules should be more consistent

Big can of worms here. I don't care for the rules, but the quality of the rules production and support is outstanding.

3

Not found anything wrong with it, and as for number 7 I scoff at that. Mainly because using the US D-Day landing forces seems to rain on the nazi cake parade every time :P

7, 8

I don't like the name.

I find 2 and all the codexes (sorry 'Intelligence Briefings') turned me off.

7

I'm just so tired of Germans units with full TOA in 1944.

Codex creep and special uber characters/units. So theat might be 2 & 8

For the old cranks, you would probably need the following:

9.) Too colourful and glossy
10.) Has sold more than a dozen copies
11.) The manufacturers are actually making a profit out of the game. How dare they!

I like the game over all, though i do not understand why tank main guns cannot shoot further, with an appropriate modifier, a minor point.

If you want a challenge, take your old Squad Leader/ASL scenarios out and subsitute a counter/stand and then play using the FOW rules. A much different game that does come closer to real tactical challenge.

"For the old cranks, you would probably need the following:"

LOL! So true. Let me add:

12. Never satisfied with any rules they have to pay more than $20.00 USD for, even though they will gladly shell out $23.57 USD for a large garbage pail pizza twice a week.
13. Never want to make more than one expenditure for any rules system, ever, for the entire lifespan of the product. (Anything else is "gouging.")

14. The fanboys.

Agree with DinofBattle. , Personally, I don't like the telescoping range thing, but that's just my opinion.

Funny that Mr. Hodge shows up right after the comment regarding "old cranks."

One thing that got me the first (only) time I've played it so far was how crap shaped charge weapons like panzerschreks seem to be. From memory it seemed that, whilst it was easy to hit a vehicle and force the crew to bale out, the owning player then made a recovery roll (or something like that) and the roll was so easy to make that the crew just piled back in at the end of the turn and carried on with no ill effects (and since I was lobbing panzerschrek rounds into oncoming M18s and M4s and have, in other rules, been used to seeing them brew up quite nicely, I was a bit surprised by this). I suspect we may not have been playing the rules properly and as I don't have a copy myself I can't check. Can anyone tell me whether this really is a feature of the rules, or whether an error was being made?

I don't care for the rules.

3…

I would say #2 and the fact that I look at it and think "WFB"….

2,4,5,8,14.

And I'll add:

15. Don't like the system. WFB/WH40K with WW II models.

16. (Part of #15 really) Too many dice.

17. Range/ground scale. Just doesn't "look" right, seeing 15 mm models that can shoot only so far. The whole telescoping range thing.

Yes, I've played it. No, I don't like it. And no, I don't begrudge those who do. Congrats on finding a game you enjoy. It's just not a system that I enjoy.

And since the question was asked …

Honestly, the game just doesn't fit what I want in WWII miniatures rules. I think that in various ways, numbers 1,2,3,4 and 5 all fit for me, as does 9 in a way, and loosely 13, though none are exact fits, nor do they cover all of the reasons that the rules fail me.

I'll go for (3). With the exception of the bail out rules for armor it's just right. Goldilocks would be rather fond of it.

I've played it/seen it played a few times. Yes it is a "buckets o'dice" system and I agree w/Highlandcatfrog: That the 15mm scale--despite the gorgeous figures--looks odd. I've heard of folks playing the game maintaining the same ground scale, but using micro-armor figures.

It's what I intend to do anyway. I agree with the second part of Dinofbattle2's comment; that the product support is indeed outstanding.

Ted

Why don't I like FoW. I don't know maybe its the the fact that it is a marketing gimick that creates a cultish fanboy customer base that survives off of exbeanie babie and poke man card collectors.

Bede19025 wrote:

Funny that Mr. Hodge shows up right after the comment regarding "old cranks."

Then Bede19025 shows up (for the second time) right after the comment regarding fanboys.

I think it is sad that a poll should be entitled "what is 'wrong' with …".

Yes, I know that Option 3 is there for those who do think nothing is wrong, but the whole title and layout of this poll assumes that these rules are 'wrong', rather than that people just have differing opinions about them.

Yep. Well said.

Allen

if the cap fits wear it..

I don't think anything is wrong with FOW. I don't play the game because I don't like painting 15mm figures and that I don't think the units and tanks look right on the table.

Not a lot …. I would've thought. Bringing heaps of people into historical gaming, selling lots of minis and giving a new generation a basic grounding in WWII history. Whats not to like? If you need a deeper, simulation experience there are other good rules and you can use the same figures.

There is only one thing wrong with it.

18) It's simple, and you don't have to consult endless charts like in the Good Olde Days.

Oh, yes. One more.

19) It's popular, and it upsets those who think that wargaming is an esoteric brotherhood of well trained adepts, steeped in long years of rigorous training.

Go for it, OFM!

20) The rules have too many pretty photos of miniatures, and the Old Farts could never get such good looking terrain on the table.

I am predisposed to on this topic, since I just came back from a game at our neighboring arch rival an hour and half down the pike, in which I did well as Russians assaulting a city! 10 players! Massive tables full of nicely painted toys! My Katyushas drew blood!
Thanks, Dragonhead, and all the guys who were gracious hosts to the PaWM Commie Scum™!

Arteis, come up to Pennsylvania, and we'll give you a company to play with. It must be a short drive for you.

Yep!

Lame logo! Too much eye candy!

As I have said on similar threads before, not my cup of tea, very strange ground scale and having seen some games both at the club and in the magazines it can almost be tanks in Napoleonic lines firing at each other at point blank range! Words like Troop moving two up with mutual support don't seem to work.

However it is popular, the models are nice, the books well put together and the chaps that play it enjoy it, which is the main thing.

Tally Ho!

"There is only one thing wrong with it.

18) It's simple, and you don't have to consult endless charts like in the Good Olde Days."

What are these charts you speak of? Do they look like the charts in Flames of war?

"19) It's popular, and it upsets those who think that wargaming is an esoteric brotherhood of well trained adepts, steeped in long years of rigorous training."

So popular, I know of no one who has played it more than me!

"20) The rules have too many pretty photos of miniatures, and the Old Farts could never get such good looking terrain on the table."

How on earth would you know what people's tables look like?

2, 4, 8, 14

Kevan, you are obviously immune to irony.

Let me be frank here. ("Hi, Frank!")
I am getting sick and tired of constipated blowhards who hate Flames of War with such a passion that it borders on derangement.
I am making fun of, and ridiculing such people. If you think what I wrote is a serious analysis…

I am blaming the hatred on the irrational certain belief that the more demented possess; that if it is popular, it must be bad. That if it is easy, it must be for imbeciles. That if it has high production values, it is a capitalist plot to separate innocent dupes from money that they SHOULD be spending on the obscure mimeographed games they played back in the 80s.

*I* enjoy it, and I don't care what others play.
For some odd reason, the haters care what I play, and I cannot fathom why.

How on earth would you know what people's tables look like?

I don't know what your table looks like, and I don't care.

I also think this is a STUPID topic.
IS Flames of War the ONLY game to be treated to such a question?
Well, why not. It's the only game to have its own Board.

We "need" Polls on
What's wrong with DBA?
What's wrong with Warhammer?
What's wrong with Lasalle?
What's wrong with Harpoon?
What's wrong with Empire?
What's wrong with Science vs Pluck?
What's wrong with Fairie Meat?
What's wrong with The Sword and the Flame?
What's wrong with Panty Explosion?

Do we really need crap like this?
Do we really need smug goons dumping all over games that other people like, for no other reason than to demonstrate their own superiority?

John the OFM wrote:

I don't know what your table looks like, and I don't care.

For anyone who does care there's pics of some of Kevan's rather good terrain at
link

dereksweetoys.com/?p=18

dereksweetoys.com/?p=9

40K Jungle Death Planet terrain is popular this year.

Allen

14

Wake me when the bar opens.

I love FOW for the amount of hate it seems to inspire in some. Makes me actually want to play the game.

I have yet to see anything in FOW (WW2 ETO land combat allergic) to attract me but, that said, I shudder to agree with John the OFM – "…I don't care what others play…"

For me it's games like Matchlocks on the Warpath but the principle is the same.

Gracias,

Glenn

I have two major objections to the rules:

1. Invincible Heavy Armor -- or the 'you will never kill a Tiger with a T-34 unless you are stinkin lucky' rule.

2. Rapid Fire / Rapid move or the 'T-34's shall not pass' rule. It is just amazing that you can only fire once a turn on a slow moving T-34 but you can get double the shots at a fast moving T-34 (with no detriment to you chance to hit) -- silly me, I never knew hitting a target going 40mph was easier than hitting a stationary target.

"I love FOW for the amount of hate it seems to inspire in some. Makes me actually want to play the game."

Funny, I feel the same way. Must be the Irish in me.

"Kevan, you are obviously immune to irony."

…..thats the second funniest thing you have written.

As allen would say, Unintentional irony is the best kind

But this is also a cracker….

"I am blaming the hatred on the irrational certain belief that the more demented possess; that if it is popular, it must be bad"

Where do you get this stuff from? I know that the US is a foeign country to me and locally maybe people behave in this manner but i truly find it hard to beleive. I don't know anyone who doesnt like something because it's popular.

oh wait, maybe this is the irony thing again…..Gosh, I keep missing it!

However, if it makes you feel better to think some people dont like things because they are popular, then thats probably a good attitude to take.

Personally, I think the bottom line for people is they just don't like what they dont like…and they like what they do like and that will make it the right thing for them.

I'm sure that works for you and I know it works for me…. and I agree with you that this is a barmy thread.

Everyone knows the only thing wrong with flames of war is that they overrate opportunity fire……

Needs moar Skullz and Spikez.

As someone who I'm quite sure many of you would label an "FoW hater" can I please put forward the fact that, over the years, I have owned multiple editions and enjoyed playing both Warhammer Fantasy and 40K as conclusive evidence that my dislike of FoW is not caused by any of the factors listed below?

I'd also like my ownership and enjoyment of Black Powder to be taken into account.

9. Too colourful and glossy

10.) Has sold more than a dozen copies

11. The manufacturers are actually making a profit out of the game. How dare they!

12. Never satisfied with any rules they have to pay more than $20.00 USD USD for, even though they will gladly shell out $23.57 USD USD for a large garbage pail pizza twice a week.

13. Never want to make more than one expenditure for any rules system, ever, for the entire lifespan of the product. (Anything else is "gouging.")

19. It's popular, and it upsets those who think that wargaming is an esoteric brotherhood of well trained adepts, steeped in long years of rigorous training.

20) The rules have too many pretty photos of miniatures, and the Old Farts could never get such good looking terrain on the table.

I don't understand KevanG having trouble with irony. I thought Brits used it all the time and us Yanks had trouble with it.