Inkpaduta | 05 Oct 2010 6:24 a.m. PST |
Okay, if one was to go through all the US wars you will find a number of rules and figure lines for FIW, Am Rev, Civil War, WWI, WWII and Vietnam. You can also find companies who cover the War of 1812, Indian Wars, Sp-Am War as well. However, you would have to look long and hard to find figures, specifically for the Korean War (Yes, you can use other figures from WWII ect to cover it, but what about specific North and South Korean, UN Forces ect) and virtually no rulebooks for the war that aren't add ons to other rules sets. I know that Korean Vets refer to their conflict as "The Forgotten War" but why so little interest on the part of wargamers? This conflict would seem great for skirmish level games, small unit actions, gallant position defenses against human wave assaults ect. You have a variety of ccountries involved, retreats, advances, interesting individuals as commanders, elite units fighting. Can't figure out why this isn't more popular. |
templar72 | 05 Oct 2010 6:27 a.m. PST |
Just a wild guess but I would say that there haven't been any really incredible movies about the war that in turn inspired a sculptor to make beautiful figures that in turn would inspire wargamers to buy figures and then go scrambling to learn all they can about the period. This seems like one common evolution of games. Sometimes the movie step can be skipped if a talented sculptor comes out with a line of stunning figures. Ed G. |
GildasFacit | 05 Oct 2010 6:28 a.m. PST |
Possibly beacuse no-one want to play the other side ? |
Frederick | 05 Oct 2010 6:42 a.m. PST |
The Korean War is not part of popular culture the way other wars are – I think Templar is right |
Striker | 05 Oct 2010 6:47 a.m. PST |
What I know about the Korean war from books and relatives who were in it just doesn't drive me to game it. It's a war that I really like to read about: all the Cold War antics,drawing down from WWII to be called back, heroic stands and battles, lots of new tech alongside old. Sure there are some skirmish possibilities but a lot of battles involving "hold this feature vs hordes of Chinese/NK" or "you're in a route now escape". I can't see many people painting up the hordes to take the hill. Not so intriguing. The begining of the war could be interesting but not terribly so. It's kind of how I view the Eastern Front, it really sucks to be the Soviets in the begining and the Germans have a boat load of problems at the end; it's the soft middle that's of interest where there's some parity. I also don't do WWI for the same reasons. Korean War specific minis would definitely be pulling at my wallet though and that might tip me, at least, to buy in. I think most rulesets out there would cover the conflict pretty well. |
95thRegt | 05 Oct 2010 6:50 a.m. PST |
Rumor has it that Spielberg and Co. are doing a Korean War film/series. Bob C. |
Grumpy Monkey | 05 Oct 2010 6:55 a.m. PST |
hope it's better than The Pacific |
Mr Elmo | 05 Oct 2010 6:58 a.m. PST |
I think it us because the technology isn't different from WWII and most of the battles lack BIGSEXYTANKS. Vietnam has a following because (I think) the helicopter fills the "sexy" role for the wargamer. |
Dark Knights And Bloody Dawns | 05 Oct 2010 6:58 a.m. PST |
I'm pushing Dave from Pendraken to produce 10mm figs and vehicles for the Korean war and I'll use a club variation of FOW for the rules. link I like the idea of 10mm for this period because of increased weapon ranges etc. |
Der Alte Fritz | 05 Oct 2010 7:16 a.m. PST |
Pork Chop Hill was a movie about the Korean War. There was also the MASH television series. |
Dan Cyr | 05 Oct 2010 7:18 a.m. PST |
For me it is the difficulty of 'viewing' the terrain so as to recreate it on the table. Figures and vehicles are easy enough, but setting up terrain has stopped me several times. Dan |
Richard Baber | 05 Oct 2010 7:21 a.m. PST |
There are some ranges of figures in 20mm both in plastic and metals. Tanks and vehicles are mostly WW2 surplus and easily available in this scale too. There are films out there – Fixed Bayonets (1951), Men in War (1956), The Steel helmet (1950), Retreat Hell! (1952), Bridges at Toko-Ri (1954), A hill in Korea (1956) and Pork Chop Hill (1959), there are more including one with Victor Mature as an American fighting with the Greeks and another with Sidney Poitier having to fight racism whilst commanding a platoon. More recently the Chinese/Koreans have released "Brotherhood of War" |
The G Dog | 05 Oct 2010 7:34 a.m. PST |
I'm with Dan – I think its the terrain. Mountains and 'big hills' are a staple of the Korean War. Both are tough to model successfully on the game table. The air war seems to have a following with all sorts of cool stuff – culminating with Migs and F-86 – duking it out. |
John the OFM | 05 Oct 2010 7:38 a.m. PST |
I think it's the context. The men went over there, did their job, took a lot of casualties, did not win, did not lose. No real end to the war, it just faded down to an armed armistice. No TV coverage. The vets were not demonstrative. Vietnam is different in that we clearly lost the war. I will leave it to the trained polemicists on either side to explain why and how and whether we REALLY lost it, etc. Plus it was on TV every night, and the media turned against it. It's more "famous". I would not say that there is "NO" interest. Obviously, there is some interest. It is just not the most popular war. I would play it if someone else did all the painting, but have little interest in doing it myself. I think the main problem that Korea has as a gaming era is that no one won, no one lost. It just stopped. Perhaps that is why 1917 in Flanders is not gamed much. |
Sane Max | 05 Oct 2010 8:06 a.m. PST |
It was the period I most wanted to play with Cold War Commander. Two things put me off – the troops and equipment did not feel ‘different' enough from other wars to inspire me to play, and the nature of many of the battles seemed ‘difficult' – heavy terrain, artillery stonks and sudden collapses. Plus I couldn't get a Trapper John in 15mm. Pat |
Martin Rapier | 05 Oct 2010 8:15 a.m. PST |
"Pork Chop Hill was a movie about the Korean War" As was 'A Hill in Korea', featuring a rather young Micheal Caine, who actually fought in Korea. Not a lot of people know that. |
elsyrsyn | 05 Oct 2010 8:31 a.m. PST |
Didn't we just have this discussion? TMP link Doug |
Schlesien | 05 Oct 2010 8:40 a.m. PST |
Thanks Doug, I thought we just had this discussion. |
cloudcaptain | 05 Oct 2010 8:43 a.m. PST |
You'd be shocked about how many people I've brought it up to who had no clue that it happened. Ditto for the War of 1812. |
DeanMoto | 05 Oct 2010 9:13 a.m. PST |
I do like how tigers' gapping maws were painted on the front of tanks |
11th ACR | 05 Oct 2010 9:22 a.m. PST |
I know that there plastic but: link link link link Yea I know there not that great, but you could use WW-II with a shtload of conversions. Robert Henry link link |
RockyRusso | 05 Oct 2010 9:42 a.m. PST |
Hi I didn't know there was no interest. I thought I had been doing games all these years and even had figs. Imagine! Course, what do I know, I have also regularly done 1812. However, I have never gamed anything in the carlist wars. I wonder if I get out more, or others don't get out enough. Rocky |
11th ACR | 05 Oct 2010 9:55 a.m. PST |
Now that I think about it, we did a Korean War game in 1/285th scale back in the 80's We used WW-II U.S. figures and vehicles vs WW-II Soviet figures and vehicles. It basically was U.S. vs U.S.S.R. late WW-II. Robert Henry link link |
John the OFM | 05 Oct 2010 9:56 a.m. PST |
I wonder if I get out more, or others don't get out enough. Yes. Not the audience? |
Tom Bryant | 05 Oct 2010 10:20 a.m. PST |
I don't think that its because there is no interest per se just low interest. With a few notable exceptions the bulk of the war resembled WWI more than anything else. The initial breakthrough to the Pusan Peri miter, the Inchon invasion and drive to the Yalu, the Chinese Invasion of 1950 and withdrawal out of the North all of this taking place within the first year of the war and are dynamic enough to attract gamer interest. Re-fighting Caparetto with airstrikes and WWII armor really isn't as appealing. I'm not saying it couldn't be made interesting, just that there isn't a huge degree of interest in the period. |
Pizzagrenadier | 05 Oct 2010 10:34 a.m. PST |
If someone did the minis in 28 or 15mm, I would definitely get into it. But I would want to see a enough to do at least full platoons and some heavy weapons first before diving in. |
CmdrKiley | 05 Oct 2010 10:34 a.m. PST |
There's no zombies involved. |
highlandcatfrog | 05 Oct 2010 10:35 a.m. PST |
Played a Korean War air game 2 days ago and had a blast. The guys on the other side kept referring to us as "Imperialist running dog lackeys of the bourgeoisie oppressors", whilst the players on my side continually questioned each others' loyalty: "Who's side are you really on, commander? Or should I call you comrade?" "Who played second base for the Brooklyn Dodgers in 1936? Don't know, huh? But I bet you know everyone on the Reds?" "If I don't hear the Pledge of Allegiance and God Bless America out of that guy within the next 10 seconds I'll shoot the dirty commie down myself!" "Look at how he keeps missing those Migs! Must be intentional – he won't really shoot his Fellow Travelers!". Great fun. I gotta buy some Sabres
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Inari7 | 05 Oct 2010 10:59 a.m. PST |
What Air rules did you use Highlandcatfrog? |
foot soldier | 05 Oct 2010 12:01 p.m. PST |
Gentlemen, If you are attending Fall In at the end of October you can see the preview of our new 15mm North Korean figures. cheers, rob eureka miniatures usa |
highlandcatfrog | 05 Oct 2010 12:24 p.m. PST |
What Air rules did you use Highlandcatfrog? Used the CY 6 Jet Age rules. Scenario was from the Korean War campaign book and featured 4 Sabres vs. 4 Russian flown Mig 15s. 2 Sabres shot down, 1 Mig shot down and 2 damaged. |
Jimmy da Purple | 05 Oct 2010 12:44 p.m. PST |
I will be running a game at Fall in using Eureka's new figures for the Korean War. I have an advance order of some of the line. It will be early war. The first meeting of the vaunted t34/85 and the Pershing tank. It is based on an action from "Marine Tank Battles of the Korean War". |
Oberst Radl | 05 Oct 2010 1:34 p.m. PST |
Tae Guk Gi is a Korean film set during the war. |
GUNBOAT | 05 Oct 2010 1:59 p.m. PST |
Had a Korean War Game at my house 20 years a go i think it was a Christmas game Wine and mince pies ect North Koreans/Chines i used WWII Russians with T34s and Japs to help make up the numbers WWII British and Centurion tanks with Churchill's All in 20mm used WWII rules modified a bit One large hill down the table running 20ft and 5ft in with Brits on top lost half the hill but then Sea Furys help to win it back (ok Frog Tempest's used) |
Liliburlero | 05 Oct 2010 2:17 p.m. PST |
As a Marine Sergeant, I made the landing at Inchon ("Green Beach" on Wolmido) on Sept. 15, 1950, and was wounded in the battle for Seoul. While I have read extensively on the subject over the years, it has never interested me as a theatre for wargaming. Larry Brom USMC H-3-5 |
Uesugi Kenshin | 05 Oct 2010 2:24 p.m. PST |
For me it lacks interest due to the fact that equipment wise its basically a re-fight of WWII. That simple. |
troopwo | 05 Oct 2010 2:26 p.m. PST |
Even more amazingly, I've read a book where it mentions you by name getting wounded during the re-taking of Seoul Larry! |
pvi99th | 05 Oct 2010 2:34 p.m. PST |
As for films there is supposed to be a big screen Battle of Chosin film coming out at some point. I attended the New Jersey premier of the Chosin documentary at Rutgers University and the film director mentioned that he has seen the first draft of the script and that they have found locations in South Korea to film. I am working on putting together 54mm figures for the war. Obviously it will be a skirmish! I have a bunch of Valiant Marines in winter gear and have even found a couple metal Chinese but they are tough to locate. Someday maybe I will complete the project. Of course then I will probably be too old to remember what I was doing with them. |
troopwo | 05 Oct 2010 2:46 p.m. PST |
I don't think that it is 'not' popular. Merely that it is not 'as' popular. Let me put it this way. I play 28mm. Let me go through some of my Korean War forces. First the infantry then the support forces. 28mm Chinese- I have near 500 altogether. It is the only way to play the Peoples Liquidation Army. Mostly 1st Corp that I had built at my cost through one of a number of amazing deals the then owner set up with me. Add to these about another 100 chinese from various pulp like Copplestone and Pulp and more. 28mm PLA support includes multiples of each, 76mm Zis3, 105mm RR, 75mmRR, 57mmRR, DShKa 12.7mm, Maxims, captured Browning .30, 82mm mortars, and 120mm mortars. 28mm British- specific to korea, turtle helmet and 1950s jackets, not battledress. See notes on 1st Corps and the deal with owner. The latest owners seem to like this range well enough that they added another three or four figures to it! Supported by 25 pounders, 81mm mortars, 3.5inch bazooka, Vickers mmg, Browning .30 cal. 28mm Belgians- I have a platoon of WW2 british paras in berets painted in apropriate belgian cam 28mm USMC-A company and a half 1st Corp USMC along with riflemen from both TAG and Brigade, 3 inch anti-tank guns, 105mm howitzers, 3.5inch bazooka, 75mmRR, 0.50cal hmg and 0.30cal mmg and lmg Brownings 28mm US Army-a platoon or two each from Artizan, Crusader and others. Look for the greatcoat range, Para, and others too. Support as USMC. 28mm North Koreans- mild exacto conversions.-another 120 figure force. This time they started as Mongrel Afghan Army with the mustaches exactoed off and the AK magazine clipped into a short SKS style carbine. Supported by similar to the PLA. 28mm Canadian- platoon, in battledress with the squared style field/baseball caps. Extra Brens and brownings. Simple conversions of West Wind feldmutz heads shaved down a touch on 1st Corps WW2 British in battledress. It can be done. Ask for ideas and help is the best to open your eyes to it. |
pvi99th | 05 Oct 2010 2:48 p.m. PST |
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scotskane | 05 Oct 2010 3:14 p.m. PST |
There was a lot of street fighting for Seoul, if I remember and guerilla activity in the south after the NKA was pushed back. I always thought there were a lot of 'what-if' and 'weird war' possibilities for the area and era. |
YesthatboyPeter | 05 Oct 2010 3:49 p.m. PST |
I recently finished reading David Halberstam's The Coldest Winter, thought it was a great read, especially if you are looking for a primer to the Korean War. Highly recommend it. Although it did get my blood boiling at few points to read about some of the down right ignorance of a few people in key positions. |
Legion 4 | 05 Oct 2010 3:53 p.m. PST |
I remember that TMP link too, Doug
thought we said all there was to be said ? Guess Not ! |
Rudysnelson | 05 Oct 2010 7:34 p.m. PST |
There are figures available in 15mm from Quality Casting/Battlehonors. US WW2 troops can be used with only a few new weapon systems like the RR. Shermans and Chaffees and pershings as well as HTs were still used. the Communist used Russian WW2 tanks. Chinese WW2 troops in USA gear can be used for South Koreans. |
Blake Walker | 05 Oct 2010 9:30 p.m. PST |
My friends and I talked about doing the Korean War in 20-mm about 10 years ago. The only thing I had about the conflict was Federbach's This Kind of War about the fighting in Korea. But people weren't interested in playing and then there was the issue of compatible figure ranges and terrain, too. Strange as it may sound, I've played more Korean War air games with Warbeads than anything else. But the only Korean gaming I really plan on doing is the Imjin War of 1592-98 between Korea and Japan (now that both my samurai armies are done and I just need to eventually buy my Perry Royal Korean army & paint it up)
Still, I understand why Mr. Brom probably doesn't want to really game it. A friend of mine who was in the US Navy can't stand to be around any 10-mm Vietnam games I play because he lost too many friends and buddies who were doing their tours in country (probably the same with my generation about Afghanistan and Iraq). |
Doctor X | 05 Oct 2010 9:41 p.m. PST |
Needs more boobies. Someone had to say it before we got to Page 2. |
aercdr | 06 Oct 2010 2:38 a.m. PST |
Actually, the Victor Mature movie was about the Turkish Brigade, not the Greeks. At Salute in 2004 there was a large Korean War Game using Rapid Fire. I joined in for a while. It was reasonably good at portraying Communist maneuver vs. Allied firepower. I had fun . |
Sir Sidney Ruff Diamond | 06 Oct 2010 5:17 a.m. PST |
Reiver castings do some 20mm figures. They looked quite nice when I saw them at Derby this weekend. I can't see much on the Reiver site but this site show photos of a lot of the figures (use the links an the side for US, Chinese and Brits). link |
Legion 4 | 06 Oct 2010 6:53 a.m. PST |
I have to completely agree with Blake
I used to do nothing but historical gaming
And still study military history
But after 10+ years as an active duty Infantry Officer('79-'90) in 4 Infantry Bns, I went the sci-fi route. Besides always enjoying sci-fi as well as military history and my fater was a decorated WWII Infantry SGT in the ETO
Sci-fi was "easier to game" and to "deal with" so to speak, than real conflicts. Especially knowing history and experiencing life as an Infantryman. In various environments and "threats" all over the world(including tours on the DMZ). But as always do what works for you
and game as you like. But I guess gaming especially with currently conflicts, "hits too close to home", in a manner of speaking
Of course I'm no pacifist, and like to see news reports of enemy loses. But gaming with US/NATO vs. Al Quada/Taliban/Iraqi Insergents does not work for me
However in the real world
it's a different paradign
obviously
|
Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy | 06 Oct 2010 8:53 a.m. PST |
Well Acheson Creations should be releasing their Fire in Korea 28mm figures to go along with our upcoming rules of the same name. picture I don't know but 50+ posts is quite a lot for a subject with supposedly no interest. |