"Hungarian Army of the 1848 Revolution" Topic

Does anyone know how was the revolutionary army organized?

I would guess that they followed Austrian organization.

Sorry, I expressed myself bad, I want to know more about the composition of the hungarian army (which regiments fought the war,etc)

Don,

If you don't read Hungarian, that's a tall order because other than the several articles in MWAN a few years back by Haggart and 'The Magyar War' published by Pickelhaube Press in 2006, there's not much available in English. If you read German, there's a wealth of material available in pdfs. If you want some titles, just ask.

Otherwise, you'll have to pick up a copy of Robert Hermann's 'Az 1848-1849-es szabadsagharc nagy csatai' [The Battles of the 1848-1849 Rebellion] published by Zrinyi Kiado, Budapest 2004. Not sure if it's still in print, though you could try bookline.hu and see if they have it.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the help. Unfortunally, I can't read a word of hungarian. However, I think I can translate german. What german material do you know?

Hi Don,

I live in Hungary and I can help you find what you are looking for. I have the MWAN article and I have the book above as well. Please contact me off list at csonkaj@hotmail.com

Cheers Hunlion

Don,

Also have a look at Ralph Weaver's booklet, 'Brief Freedom'.

Mike

Don,

Actually, there are more books in English than I thought and only two in German. The German ones deal with the fighting in Transylvania but are quite good. Here is what I've downloaded so far:

War in Hungary, 1848-1849 by Max Schlesinger

A Complete History of the Hungarian War by J. Frost

History of the War in Hungary in 1848 and 1849 by Otto Wenkstern

Scenes of the Civil War in Hungary, in 1848 and 1849

Bem in Siebenburgen zur Geschichte des ungarischen Krieges 1848 und 1849 by Pataky

Bem's Feldzug in Siebenburgen in den Jahren 1848 und 1849 by Czetz

There might be more but I've yet to find them. All of the above can/could be downloaded from google books. If they are not there [the Wenkstern book was reprinted a few years ago], then you could try to search it on google or some of the other online search engines or try archive.net .

If anyone has any other pdfs to add to the list, please let me know!!!

Oh, by the by, do you have the uniform book for the Hungarian War wrtitten by Barcy Zoltan and Somogyi Gyozo "A Szabadsagharc Hadserege"? If not, you need it if you're interested in gaming the war. Also, if you read Polish, you can pick up a copy of Istvan Kovacs "Polacy w wegierskiej Wisosnie Ludow 1848-1849", if you can find it.

Finally, I've compiled a list of 15mm miniatures that can be used for the war. If anyone is interested they can contact me at jestarnes66@gmail.com

Happy Hunting!

Swampking,thanks for the list of books, I'm gonna search for them at google books.

Do you have yourself the book "A Szabadsagharc Hadserege" ? It looked for it at google and it seems amazing! Do you know a good site that sells it?

Gefreiter, I have sent an email to you.

Seńor Don,

Nothing has come through as yet.

Mike

Don,

I have a photocopy of it [with most of the color plates]. It's impossible to find normally, though I see it from time to time on bookline.hu and abebooks.com , though it's normally outrageously expensive when you do find a copy.

It appears that the new book 'Brief Freedom' has some great plates as well and might be a good substitute~.

Swampking, would it be possible for you to send me this photocopy?

It's possible.

Send me an email at either:

dobretigger@email.com

or

jestarnes66@gmail.com

I've sent an e-mail to your first adress, tell me if it doesn't appear.

Hi, I have three wargame secenarios from this period if anyone is intrested please contact in off list at csonkaj@hotmail.com

Cheers Hunlion

It appears that Ralph Weaver's book on the Hungarians will be published in Septmeber for those that are interested.

Mike Embree … TMP link

OOPS!

The book on the Hungarian army has been cancelled by Helion.

Received an email yesterday to that effect. If anyone has any further info, please let me know. It's a shame, really, as besides the MWAN articles and the 'Magyar War, 1848-49' booklet, not much else in English exists.

Royal Marine – not sure what your post/link to Mike's book on the 1848 War in Italy has to do with this thread. Not trying to start a flame war, as Mike's book is incredible for the Italian War but it has nothing to do with the War in Hungary or the Hungarian Army of the '48 Rebellion.

Same year … may have some useful data for cross-pollenation between Austria, Italy and Hungary. Then again, if only want to look at one campaign in isolation at a time … "flame on".

Ah, now I see how your mind works RM!!

No, I'm not going to 'flame on' – I'm too straight for that kind of action :)!

Maybe I can get Mike to do a book on the Hungarian War….

Actually, some of the Aude Historica figures for the 1848 Italian War can be used for the Hungarian conflict, so there is some 'cross-pollenation' as you say!

I'm always pollenating and cheating with my figures and research. My Austrians, Italians, French and Germanics have stretched from 1859 to 1871 … mmm why not 1848? Just as long as they wave a nice flag then no one really cares!

I think Mike is watching this and smiling, just send him a proposal, it won't take him long to knock a nice book together.

Sent an email to Ralph Weaver asking about his forthcoming book on the Hungarians of 1848. He informed me that Caliver has taken up the task of publishing it.

It might be a few more months but hopefully this book will see the light of day and spark some interest in this little gamed conflict.

Don:
Glad to see folks are interested in this period. Big battles and armies with cavalry composed completely of hussars and lancers…That and artillery carriages painted in stripes.

ORGANIZATION: At the beginning of the war, the various Hungarian commands averaged about 10,000 men and were referred to as divisions. By the fall, the various independent commands containing more than one division were designated as army corps. In the Spring of 1849, ten corps had been formed, the first, second, third and seventh being combined into the first designated army, the Upper Danubian Army. Others soon followed, The Transylvanian Army, Upper Tisza Army, and finally the Lower Danubian Army, each of two to four corps depending on which point in the last six months of the war is considered. At its peak, the Hungarian army numbered 170,000 men and 500 field guns.

While the Austrian corps organization was followed in the beginning, the generally accepted structure was formalized in June by the then Minister of Defense Görgei. Two infantry divisions and a cavalry division, each of two brigades, constituted an army corps. Every corps contained ten infantry battalions, sixteen cavalry squadrons and five to eight batteries, one for each of the infantry and cavalry brigades in each division with one to three batteries as a corps artillery reserve. Thus an average Corps would comprise 9200 infantry, 1600 cavalry and forty to forty-eight guns.
The Honvéd never created infantry regiments; two to three battalions of six companies each formed a brigade of about 2,500 infantry. Eight to sixteen squadrons formed a cavalry brigade for an average of 1,600 cavalry.

Here is the OOB for the main Hungarian army at the battle of Isaszeg:

The Honvéd Upper Danubian Army, April 1849.

Major-General Artúr Görei Commanding (excellent)

I CORPS Major-General Georg Klapka (Good)

1st Division Colonel Desewssy (fair)

Bobich Brigade
28th Honvéd , 46th Honvéd , 47th Honvéd battalions
one squadron of 14th Lehel Hussars, eight 6# guns

Dipild Brigade
6th Honvéd, 26th Honvéd, 52nd Honvéd battalions
one squadron of 14th Lehel Hussars, eight 6# guns

2nd Division Colonel Kazinczy (Good)

Záko Brigade
19th Honvéd , 34th Honvéd Battalions half squadron of 13th Hunyady Hussars, four 12#
guns

Schulz Brigade
17th Honvéd, 3rd Btn/39th Dom Miguel Regiment
half squadron of 13th Hunyady Hussars, four 12# guns

Méstzterházy Cavalry Brigade
1st Emperor Ferdinand Hussars (8 sqns)
8th Prince Coburg Hussars (4 sqns), eight 6# guns

Artillery Reserve: Eight 6# guns

Strength: 9,200 infantry, 1,600 cavalry 800 artillerists and forty guns. Total: 11,600 men and 40 guns.

II CORPS Major-General Lajos Aulich (good)
1st Division Colonel Rakowski (fair)

Buttler Brigade
25th Honvéd(Landwehr),43rd Honvéd, 54th Honvéd Btns
One Squadron 6th Wurttenberg Hussars, eight 6# guns

Mihaly Brigade
56th Honvéd, 1st Btn/39th Dom Miguel Regiment
One Squadron 17th Bocskay Hussars, eight 3# guns

2nd Division Colonel Horvath (Good)
Mandy Brigade
49th Honvéd, 61st Honvéd, 63rd Honvéd Battalions
One Squadron 17th Bocskay Hussars, eight 6# guns

Cavalry Brigade
6th Württemberg Hussars (6 sqns)
14th Lehel Hussars (3 sqns)

Artillery Reserve: eight 6# guns

Strength: 6,800 Infantry, 1,800 Cavalry, 640 Artillerists and 32 guns Total: 9,040 men and 32 guns

III CORPS Major-General Johann Damjenich (Excellent)
1st Division Colonel Wysocki (Excellent)

Leiningen Brigade (Elite)
3rd Honvéd, 42nd Honvéd, 3rd btn/54th Pr.of Hesse
Regt. one Sqn 3rd d'Este Hussars, eight 6# guns

Kiß Brigade (Elite)
9th Honvéd, Polish Legion btn, 3rd btn/60th Vasa
Regt. one Sqn 3rd d'Este Hussars, eight 6# guns

2nd Division Colonel NágySandor (Good)

Knezich Brigade
60th Honvéd, 2nd btn/34th Pr. of Prussia Regt.
Eight 6# guns

Kázonyi Cavalry Birgade
2nd King of Hanover Hussars (8 sqns)
3rd d'Este Hussars (4 sqns), Polish Lancers (one
sqn)eight 6# horse guns

Artillery Reserve: Eight #6 guns

Strength: 9,200 infantry, 2,000 cavalry, 800 gunners and 40 guns. Total: 12,000 men and 40 guns

VII Corps Major-General Gáspár (poor)
1st Division Colonel Kossuth (fair)

Horváth Brigade
15th Honvéd, 39th Honvéd btns, six sqns 9th Emperor
Nicholas Hussars, five 6# guns

Waldberg Brigade
1st Btn, 60th Vasa Regt. two sqns 13th Hunyady
Hussars, eight 6# guns

Petheö Brigade (Elite)
1st btn/ 2nd Emperor Alexander Regt., Nógráder Btn
two co,s pioneers, two co.s Ujházy Rifles, five 6#
guns

2nd Division Colonel Kmety (good)

Gergely Brigade
10th Honvéd, 25th Honvéd, one co. of pioneers
two sqns 10th Friedrick Wilhelm Hussars, seven 6#
guns

Ujváry Brigade
45th Honvéd, two co.s Ujházy Rifles, four sqns 10th
King of Prussia Hussars, six 6# guns

Uechtritz Brigade (Elite)
33rd Honvéd, 51st Honvéd btns, two sqns 12th
Palatinal Hussars, six 6# horse guns

3rd Division Colonel Pöltenerg (good)

Kossuth Brigade (Elite)
1st Honvéd, 50th Honvéd btns, two sqns 4th Grand
Prince Alexander Hussars, seven 6# horse guns

Zambély Brigade
14th Honvéd, 66th Honvéd btns, four sqns 4th Grand
Prince Alexander Hussars, seven 6# horse guns

Weissel Brigade (Elite)
four co.s Grenadiers, 3rd btn/48th Ernö Regt.,
four co.s Tyrolean Rangers, two sqn 9th Emperor
Nicholas Hussars, six howitzers, two rockets.

Artillery Reserve: Seven howitzer horse guns

Stength: 12,400 infantry, 3,150 cavalry, 1,360 gunners and 68 guns Total= 16,910 men and 68 guns

ARMY TOTAL= 49,550 and 180 guns

Bill H.

Here are some other books I know of, to add to those mentioned above.

Barcy, Zoltán and Somogyi, Győző, A szabadságharc hasdserege. 1848-49 katonai szerveaete, egyenruhái és fegyverzete [The Army of the War of Independence. The Military Organization, Uniforms and Armament of 1848-49] (1986) Budapest.

Already mentioned, but it is a beautiful book with lots of illustrations. Well worthwhile even if you don't read Hungarian, though a Hungarian-English dictionary will really provide good information with work. Hungarian looks like a chicken with inked feet danced on the page.

Bona, Gábor ed. The Hungarian Revolution and War of Independence, 1848-1849, A Military History. (1999) New York: Columbia University Press.

This is the definitive history of the war. if you have one book on the war, this is it. AND it's in English.

Hartely, M. The Man Who Save Austria: The Life and Times of Baron Jellačić. (1860) Mills & Boon, Limited, London.

Very biased, but easy to find on google. What it does contain is terrific information about the organization of the Croat forces, the opening battles and the early politics.

Klapka, General. Memoirs of the War of Independence in Hungary. Vol I-II (1850) Charles Gilpin Press, London.

Another google book that gives great perspective on the war from one of Hungary's most talented generals.

Robert, Hermann. 1848-1849 A szabadságharc hadtörténete. (2001) Budapest: Korona Kiadó

Already mentioned. A beautiful book with wonderful pictures. It is a shame it hasn't been translated.

Mor, Than. A Szabadsagharc Kilenc Nagy CsatajaM ( Freedom fight: Nine big Battles)(1978) Budapest: Korona Kiadó

This is supposed to be translated, but I haven't found it.

Gorgi also has a memoir that can be found on Google.

Best Regards,

Bill

Swampking:

I'd be interested in your list of figures, if you can and are willing to share them.

Regards,
Bill H.

Bill H.

Just send me an email and I'll send a copy off to ya.

jestarnes66@gmail.com

Thanks for the Mor book – didn't know about it – I'll have to search for it.

Finally acquired a copy of the Barcy and Somogyi book – what an awesome book! Oh, and I just found out that it's been reprinted in Hungary! It's going for about 3,000 Hungarian forint [HUF], which is around $15 USD It's available from bookline.hu , if anyone is interested

The problem with the Bona book is that it's been out of print for several years and when it does come up it's way out of reach of the average wargamer, though if you use interlibrary loan, you can acquire it. However, if you live overseas, you're out of luck.

Swampking:

Will do. Thanks!

Bill

I am wondering how many folks are interested in the Hungarian War? Would there be some interest in a Yahoo wargame list etc.?

*Half a Million combatants. It is actually the third largest war in Europe after the 1870 and 1866 wars.
*Set piece battles with 50,000+ on a side to guerilla actions
*Campaigns in a fairly small area
*Gorgeous uniforms and exotic units.
*An almost successful Revolution

Also, one more set of books:

the two volume from the Austrian view Point:

Austria in 1848-1849 by William H. Stiles
Published by Elibron Classics

Bill

Bill,

I would say that at present, it doesn't appear too many people are interested in the period, though interest seems to be in spurts.

I started a Polish Wars Yahoo group a few years ago but interest faded after a few months.

If you [or someone else] starts a blog, then interest might be stoked. Also, I'd bet that Ralph Weaver's new booklet on the Hungarian Army of the '48 will spark some interest. His booklet on the 1st Schleswig-Holstien War garnered so much interest that Pendraken designed a new figure range, which is expanding every month it seems. I would hope that the same thing will happen with the Hungarian War but who can tell, gamers seem to be a fairly conservative bunch at times when it comes to new, unfamiliar periods, especially if they can't pronounce the names of the commanders of the armies!

My RCW gaming friend is Hungarian and is doing 1848 Hungarians I will point him at the post.

Thanks for the recommendations, Swampking.

War in Hungary, 1848-1849 (published in 1850) by Max Schlesinger
link

A Complete History of the Hungarian War by J. Frost
link

History of the War in Hungary in 1848 and 1849 (published in 1859) by Otto Wenkstern
link

Scenes of the Civil War in Hungary, in 1848 and 1849 by Baron W.
link

My Life and Acts in Hungary in the Years 1848 and 1849 (1852) by Artúr Görgey
link

The letters and journal (1848-49) of Count Charles Leiningen-Westerburg, general in the Hungarian army; (1911)
link

Also, take a look here: link

Wow, what a treasure-trove, particularly the last link. I really like having the books on PDF. I can do word searches that way.

Thanks!

Bill H.

Cuirassier,

No problems – happy to help.

Agree with Bill – quite a treasure-trove!!

Now, if only we could get a manufacturer interested in the period!~!

Hi Guys!

I am a Hungarian, living in London, and I am a member of the South London Warlords. I have around 150 figures in 28mm, for the Hungarian war of Independence 1848-49. My project was a game based on the two board game Memoir 44 and Battlecry, so we played this games on hexes. Now I am planning to start a new skirmish game, mainly the early period, the Southern front Hungarians vs Serbians. The figures are 70% Front Rank Napoleonic Austrian Grenz infantry against mixed Balkan figures, like Perry Bashi-Bazouks.
The Grenz infantry used the old Napoleonic style uniforms as well, so the figures are correct. On the Hungarian side as a part of the army, was 2 Battalion of Hungarian Szekely Grenz infantry and a Squadron of Hussar also Szekely Regiment (also Front Rank Napoleonic Austrian Hussars). The Szekely "tribe" was a Hungarian tribe, they had a kind of special status like the Cossacks in Russia. They lived and served as a border guard in Transylvania.
The Serbs who lived in the Hungarian Kingdom was supported by the Serbs who lived under the Turkish rule, on the other side of the border. The Serbs was loyal for the Austrian King, so they fought against the Hungarian goverment. The political situation was very confusing that time, because officialy the Hungarian goverment was loyal as well. :)
This Serb force was mainly irregular infantry and light artillery from the Danube river navy. No cavalry, they used waggons when they moved, and the fight was mainly raids against each other fortified villages.
This is a quiet good skirmish game base, good as a beginning. Some picture about my force, the figures are mainly handmade modified figures, from my Hungarian friend who used to work for museums to setup and make dioramas. I will use his figures as a 3D painting guide, for my project.

pictures: link

janos,

Thanks for the pics. You've done a great job with the modifications – those figs are beautiful!

Janos:

Very nice work! The Serb irregular unit is a well done conversion. Did those irregulars carry Austrian national flags, or did they usually carry Serb or local colors?

I noticed that you have the Austrian gun carriages striped black and yellow. Did they do that much? I know the Hungarians striped them green, white and red, but I hadn't seen any pictures of the Austrians stripping their gun carriages.

I hadn't realized that about the Szekely units. That explains a lot concerning their uses, names and organization, Hussars, Grenz and such.

Thanks for sharing.

Bill H.

Swampking:

Unfortunately these figures are not my work, as I said from my friend, He is working for Museums, as a diorama maker.

McLaddie:

The Serbs are from Perry Miniatures not converted. I am not sure about the flag, but because the Serb irregulars was served in Grenz units before (many was retired soldier, veteran), and was loyal for the Habsburg King, I think its accurate. As I said these figures are my 3D uniform book, from an expert figure maker. He painted the figures, so I think these are accurate. Also I think both, the flag and the guns are looks very good. :) I agree, I hadn`t seen any pictures about the guns as well. I will ask him about this.

Some other interesting bits and pieces, about the Honved officers. They got no choice, after the war the Hapsburg's are killed all the generals, and locked all the officers, the private must served 20 years in the Austrian army. So the remain lucky few escaped, and went to different countries.

Jozef Bem Polish general was one of our hero during the war, he was an officer in the Napoleonic Polish army (artillery), and after rebel officer against the Russians, and later leader of the revolutionary students in Vienna, after Hungarian general, and later Turkish general during the Crimean war against the Russians.

During the American Civil war, around 700 ex Honved served in the Union Army, one general got the Medal of Honor. The 39th New York Regiment, called Garibaldi Guard had a Hungarian company, mainly veterans of the Hungarian and the Italian war (Garibaldi had a company of Hungarian Hussars). These ex Honved officers was mainly highly educated nobles and/or students, they was dedicated freedom fighters. Some Hungarian officer fought in Mexico against the French, just because the Mexican Emperor was Hapsburg Austrian prince. The Prussians had Hungarian unit, during the Prusso-Austrian war in 1866. After 1867 some officer went back to Hungary and joint to the new Honvedseg (army), because the amnesty.

Hmmm. I didn't know Perry made those figures. Some of the Serbs fought with the Croats, but the Serbs fought separately too, along the Southern border, and the small army of regulars from Serbia did cross the border at times. I think there are some pictures of the Serb irregulars carrying other flags than the Austrian standard in Hermann's beautiful book.

Then there are the Croatian Sereshan irregulars, who dressed much like the Serbian irregulars, only with more color. ;-)

In anycase, thanks for the pictures and information. I would really like to know about the Austrian gun carriages. That would be cool if they were painted that way. It's hard to tell from your pictures as the guns are facing front, but it sure looks like they are.

Bill H.

I am Janos' erstwhile opponent, he is not fighting Serbs but TransSyldavians (bloody Hungarians couldn't tell a serb from a Moldavian if you wrote it on their foreheads you know :) ).

The wars have started and are blogged here

link

Hi,

Very interesting and helpful topic. I'm starting a 28mm figures company for 19th C. wars and this looks like a good range for the future. Austrians could be used for Italy and Hungary and there are lot's of possible conversions from other ranges.

Found this Hungarian site with military history and maps: link

Can anyone tell me if the uniform plates are available on-line? link

Do you think North Star 1866 Hungarians will do as Honvéd?
link

I have been looking at this war due to the Polish and Italian contingents..
1859 Austrians hungarians, if one can accept the belt arrangements

28mm Honved and Hungarian infils (National Guard and Polish Legion) can be sourced via Steve Barber Models

Does anyone have info on the Hungarian Vasa regiment, uniforms etc

Unless I am mistaken that would be the former Imperial 60th I.R. Thus they would wear the standard uniform of Austria's Hungarian regiments: white tunic, blue trousers, shako. Per Pickelhaube Press, "The Magyar War", the 60th's facings were "steel green", white metal buttons.

They fought at Pakozd and at Schwechat; not sure which battles after that.

Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
link
bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk

Do you think North Star 1866 Hungarians will do as Honvéd?

Nope, and neither will 1866 Austrians for 1848 Austrians.

Sad, but true.

Thanks Chris, for the info, wonder what steel green looks like!

Can anyone tell me if the uniform plates are available on-line?

General officers

Honved Uniforms

Some Cavalry

Legion, Pioneer and Jager uniforms

knoetel plates found at link