"The french AWI uniform" Topic

Looking at the perrys. Really like the advancing infantry and officers. Not so keen on the standing poses.

Was wondering what conflicts this could cover and which they could "stretch" to?

Rene Chartrand's Osprey book on the French in the AWI has them all over the place. There were battles in Senegal, India and the Indies, as well as in the US.

There are also two different types of uniforms, suitable for "Early War" and Yorktown.

My guess is that at Yorktown there was a mix, with the regiments starting out at Newport and New York in the earlier uniforms, and the ones that arrived with the fleet in the later.

The Savannah campaign is great for a painter with ADD, since there were "drafts" from 30 different regiments, each in company size. There were few complete regiments at Savannah.

Lauzun's Legion was one of 4, with the others fighting all over the place too.

Actually, there were drafts from about a dozen regiments sent to Rochambeau's corps as well; a few of these were even added to Lauzun's infantry. And the 800 "marines" under de Choisy at Gloucester Point were all line infantry, drawn from about a dozen regiments (none of which were with St Simon or Rochambeau, so even more variety).

One of Rochambeau's regiments was recorded by American observers in coats with two different facing colours, which related to the 1776 and 1779 coats.

1er Legion Etrangeres was in the Caribbean.
2eme Legion was in Europe/Senegal (became Lauzun's).
3eme Legion was in Mauritius/India.

So would the french in this uniform only be fighting the british?

I don't think the British had any allies to speak of in this war. And that was the biggest part of the problem: too many enemies, no friends at all.

Well, Hanover was an ally of Great Britain and their troops served as part of the garrisons of Gibraltar and Minorca; you've also got the armies of the three Presidencies of the Honourable East India Company.

Technically, the Dutch were also allies of the British, as there was a treaty of mutual protection of each other's ships on the high seas. And depending on whose account you accept, the 3rd Waldeck Regiment was transferred from Dutch to British service in 1776.

But in terms of fighting other MAJOR nations, no the French only fought us.

Actually the Dutch also joined the coalition against England in 1779. In that war the British government somehow managed to tick off nearly every European state at the same time.

Even Sweden was against Britain, and IIRC Russia (or at least the Baltic states)…

I think blucher would also like to know to what extent these minis can be used to depict conflicts pre-AWI (e.g., Corsican revolt) and post-AWI (e.g., French Revolution). This is outside my area of expertise, but it's my impression that a) French uniforms went through quite a few changes during the late 18th Century, but b) the regular army uniforms worn in 1789 were not hugely different from those worn in 1781.

Well, John Ray is building armies for his "Fulda Campaign" which takes place in central Germany at the time of the AWI (dang, it pains me to say AWI instead of American Revolutionary War). The concept is that the European powers are have a traditional land war in Europe during the 1780s. He has Prussians, Hessians, Wurttemburgers, French, Austrians and Spanish, to name a few, fighting. From the pix that I've seen, it looks like fun and provides a nice "what if" campaign to use with these figures, or others to come.

And the 800 "marines" under de Choisy at Gloucester Point were all line infantry, drawn from about a dozen regiments (none of which were with St Simon or Rochambeau, so even more variety).

Oh? Do tell! What regiments?
Gloucester Point is on my "to do" list.

@John:

I haven't seen seen a complete listing, but at least some of the units (see, for example, Regiment Brie) are identifiable through the following links:

link

link

Oh, that Fulda campaign sounds interesting :)

Link perhaps??

"But in terms of fighting other MAJOR nations, no the French only fought us"

And the Spanish fighting in the Caribbean and besieging Gibraltar of Course ;)

So what date did the 1779 uniforms officially stop being used? Would anyone be in them at the start of the revolutionary wars?

From what I gather you could only really use them from the various conflicts during the AWI. Fighting in india could be interesting. Any good sources for that?

This may be one of the hardest perry ranges to find a use for.

The Spanish fought the British during the AWI not only in the Islands but fought their way across from Louisiana thru Mississippi, Alabama and Florida taking one British Fort after another, keeping the British occupied there while the Colonies were fighting for independence.

Concerning the French "marines", have a look at my blog:
fg-zinnfiguren.blogspot.com

blucher,

You could probably get away with using them for the early French Revolutionary War campaigns. Other than the a small alteration to the collar and the chapeau/bicorne being slightly higher, there are no differences that are going to be glaringly obvious in 28mm.

Fridericus,

An excellent collection, and some very nice painting.

The dragoons with St Simon are rarely listed in French orders-of-battle for Yorktown. I have often wondered if that was because, like the 1er Legion Etrangere hussars, they arrived without horses? Alternatively, they may have joined with the Volontaires de St Simon, another headquarters unit. The 1er LE hussars served dismounted throughout their brief service in America, but possibly the dragoons acquired horses locally (as Lauzun's men did in New England).

The engineer with telescope is supposed to be Berthier (I think the sculptor actually worked from a portrait) and the "topographique" officer with the satchel, his younger brother.

SM:

The 1st Legion hussars fought dismounted in an incident very early in the siege of Yorktown -- a recon or feint against the Star redoubt if memory serves.

I've wondered whether the 1st Legion hussars and the Volontaires de St Simon aren't actually the same unit. I believe the term "Volontaires de Saint-Simon" comes from one of the French journals kept at Yorktown (but I don't recall which one). Perhaps the author meant the volontaires etrangers de la marine that arrived with Saint-Simon (those from the first Legion) as opposed to those that arrived with Rochambeau (i.e., those from the second, or Lauzun's, Legion).

Adam,

I always had the impression that the VdSS were drawn from the Colonial regiments, but you may be right.

I think either the Belunce or Conde dragoons were also present at Savannah and there is a suspicion that their inclusion at Yorktown is actually a confusion with the earlier operation.

for jeroen72
link

If you are interested, this is a list of the companies from the French regiments that made up the 800 marines at Gloucester Point. The were under the command of de Choisy.

Regiment Total Men Ship they served on
Colonel-general 30 Jason
Colonel-general 40 Duc-de-Bourgogne
Angoumois " " "
Angoumois 75 Northumberland
Angoumois 75 Scipion
Picardie 75 Ville-de-Paris
Bresse 40 Neptune
Brie 75 Hector
Du Maine 75 Zele
Du Maine 75 Marseillais
La Sarre 30 Conquerant
Bourbon 30 Eveille
Monsieur 75 Languedoc
Rohan-Soubise 30 La Provence

This information is from the journal of Joachim du Perron and was published in a French journal in 1898. This is my favorite campaign of the war. I have been to many of the sites, and have talked with many people in the area(including park rangers) about this campaign. Hope this is of some help for all concerned.

Thank you posting this information, Bucktail.

I am of the opinion like, some of you are, that the VdSS were indeed the marines of the 1st Legion. If you are the commander of an expedition, are you going to take troops that are no more then trained militia for fighting in the West Indies ? The Legion troops were trained in the French style of war, and were more suitable for the open field type of battles that this expedition expected. I would say that these troops were probably the Legion marines. I also have read numerous accounts of the Belsunce, Conde dragoons, and 1st Legion hussars being present in this campaign. For my campaign, I am going to have 1-Belsunce and 1-Conde dragoon, and 2-1st Legion hussars. This may be a little generous, but at 25-1 the units have to have some kind of look on the field. My Volunteer de Simon will be the 1st Legion marines 3 line companies,1 command stand(a white colonels flag will be used, since I have no info on their flag), and a grenadier and chasseur company. Also my artillery will be be painted red for Saint Simon's troops, since I am sure they would have had the older style guns. If the same practice was in effect as the SYW the troops drew their guns from the Department of the Marine, and these guns were painted red. The troops with Rochambeau will serve the new style artillery pieces with blue/gray carriages. Since there were no close colonial arsenals to draw from, and they are just newly arriving, I am going to go with the assumption they would have had them. I know this has been debated back and forth, and I am really a stickler for historical facts, but until something rock solid can be proven, this is the route I am going to take. Hope this info will help some of you with your French army.

Bucktail,

1) The Colonial Infantry of the French armed forces were far more than "trained militia" – they were on a par with many of the Loyalist units n the Crown forces, or the State troops of the Continental forces. If nothing else, they would have included the local gentry and, as such, the decision to go with St Simon (quite possibly only white officers and NCOs were taken) would have been as much political as military. They formed a good proportion of the force taken to Savannah in 1779.

2) The Legions Etrangeres de la Marine (despite their name) had no "marines" as such – the only infantry in each legion were two companies of fusiliers, one each of grenadiers and chasseurs, and a company of labourers. Only 50 men of the 1er Legion are known to have been taken to Virginia and these were from the hussar component.

My contention was that the VdSS could (I stress could) have been made up of the various cavalry detachments.

Maximus,
I do realise that the first lst Legion were marines in name only. The were organised along the same lines as Lauzun's Legion. As far as the companies of fusiliers, you are right there were 2 not 3 companies, my mistake. With the colonial infantry it could be hit or miss with the quality of troops which formed my opinion of slightly better then trained militia. Not all colonial troops performed the same, and some would not have been suited for the knockdown slugfest that this expedition was expecting. That is not to say that some were not taken on expeditions, because one only has to look at the order of battle for the French at Savannah. It is my own opinion that I would have prefered to take the Legion troops more so then the colonial infantry. Until we have a documented source in regards as to who the VdSS were, the debate is left up in the air. If you have a source that proves otherwise, please share with the rest of us or give a link we can go to. This would much be appreciated. For those who would like to read more about the Legion and the history of Lauzun's please try the following link.
link

A put together a couple of blog posts relevant to this thread:

On the uniforms of Régiment Agénois:

link

On a remarkable painting, created in 1782, that shows French and British infantry in combat on St. Kitts:

link

The Agenois facings are a puzle aren't they? It's difficult to see the Agenois guy in the Blaremberghe work, but the Blerancourt painting is certainly not violet, is it. If the colour in Blaremberghe's work is the same as in Blerancourt's then we can probably discout artist's error. Personally, I think the blue is too bright to be faded violet, which I would have thought would discolour to a much greyer hue.

BTW, your text refers to each infantry battalion having a grenadier company and a chasseur company; in fact, I think it was one of each per regiment, with the grenadiers taking post with the 1st (right) battalion, and the chasseurs with the 2nd (left) battalion. I have this from the 1776 Reglement, which details the layout of a regiment, including the placement of every officer and NCO.

On a similar note, Chartrand's Osprey says there were SIX fusilier companies in each battalion, or 12 per regiment (which was the number of Fusilier companies per battalion during the SYW). I think that this is either a typo, or else it was the position around the start of the AWI and things had changed by the time the French entered the war. The 1776 Regelement clearly refers to four DIVISIONS of fusiliers, so either this was not the number of companies, or possibly they adopted the Prussian practice (as they did in many other matters) of dividing the battalion into four divisions irrespective of the number of (administrative) companies.

SM:

I'm fairly sure that the van Blarenberghe paintings show Agenois in the same basic color as the Blerancourt painting. Check out the following link. If you look at the lower left corner in the second image, you'll see two workmen in fatigue caps from Agenois, and the one whose arm is raised clearly has a bluish cuff.

link

Regarding unit organization, I was working from Chartrand. He says, on page 9, "Battalions now had six companies: one of grenadiers, one of the newly created chasseurs, and four of fusiliers. An auxiliary recruit company was added in wartime."

He states also that there were some regiments that had four battalions of fusiliers going into 1776, but these four-battalion regiments were broken into two, two-battalion regiments.

The information in that post, images aside, comes mainly from Chartrand and from Louis Suzane's regimental series. I can't vouche for their accuracy, as I haven't come across many French primary sources. This is probably just as well, because I can barely read French (hence no attempt to translate the Montlezun passage I quote).

Adam,

Thanks – yes, I see what you mean about the blue. I wonder if they got a duff batch of clothing, or perhaps stuff meant for someone else, prior to leaving for America and had to make do with them?

I have Rene's Osprey, but I hadn't noticed that the TOE he lists was for pre-1776, which suggests that may have been the key year for changes. The regiments under Rochambeau definitely had only two flank companies (one of each, with one assigned to each battalion) and two lots of four fusilier companies. It's possible these could have been reduced establishments due to the limitation of 1,000 men per regiment for the voyage (worth noting that regiments sending men to Savannah and Rhode Island mostly sent a single battalion of four companies, two flank and two fusilier).

Interesting (and good to know) information about the units with Rochambeau, and at Savannah and R.I.

My best guess is that artists like Blérancourt did not paint actual members of these regiments, but rather relied on the official regulations as a guide. For regiments 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19, the regulations called for "violet" facings, and some artists interpreted this to mean a shade of purple, while others interpreted this to mean a shade of dark blue. Similarly, violets, the wildflower, can be both purple and dark blue. In either case, the facing color would have been unlike that of other French regiments. Regiments 2 – 7 had blue facings also, but they were of the shade that people call sky blue, or baby blue, or simply light blue.

I suspect that blue-violet is more likely correct than purple-violet, primarily on the basis of the relative attention to detail in the Blérancourt and van Blarenberghe paintings.

For what it's worth, another (albeit perhaps less reliable) source that supports the blue-violet interpretation is Lefferts. The link below is to his illustration of a Gatinais grenadier.

link

As far as the purple vs blue for the Agenois Regiment, I would not argue with either one at this point. I know that from doing ACW reenacting, even with modern dyes, you still get differant shades of blue. I can remember some of our sack coats taking on a purplish shade after some weathering. 95th might want to put his 2 cents in on this, since I know he did some ACW reenacting. This is something we may want to consider also is dye shades. It just might be with the above conditions, blue or purple would not be wrong. Just some food for thought.

Yes, I'd be interested in what Bob has to say on this.

Indigo is next to violet in the spectrum, so it is quite natural that variations in the dyeing process, or natural weathering would result in this closeness (Bavarian uniforms in the Franco-Prussian War apparently went purple with the soldiers' sweat). However, the light blue shown is a very different hue, and – from my own research (which I would not presume to describe as scientific) – it would be very difficult (actually more like impossible) to get from either indigo or violet to the bright sky-blue shown by any natural process.

Typically, it took three years for an entire regiment to be completely re-equipped with new coats (usually 1/3 of the men got them each year).

I agree with the re-equiping of a regiment. I have read from other sources that some regiments had differant uniforms within the same unit at Yorktown.