dwight shrute | 25 Aug 2010 4:23 a.m. PST |
The ever escalating violence
. and watching the latest find of 72 bodies on a ranch in North mexico . Kinda sets me thinking is this gameable ? Competing cartels vs Mexican state forces
and US special agents ??? I believe this is going to get a lot worse
will US forces interevene ? Will US vigilantes enter the conflict ? |
Sane Max | 25 Aug 2010 4:33 a.m. PST |
Would it be a pleasant theme for a game? Given the drugs angle is just a motivation, and would not change the nature of the game I would say you could stick to periods that are less icky. Pat |
The Hobbybox | 25 Aug 2010 5:12 a.m. PST |
Given that most of the dead were not casulties of an armed 'battle' but the victims of drive-bys and kidnap/execution, then I find it pretty tasteless to consider it. |
Sane Max | 25 Aug 2010 5:16 a.m. PST |
"Roll a D6 Dwight. Yup, you succesfully persuade Enrico to get into the car with you. UH-Oh – looks like he has brought his 3-year old daughter with him as well. Good thing you got plenty of bullets and TWO shovels on your last 'proceeds of crime' random card draw." Heh, yes it will be a hoot to play, I am sure. You could use most of the same scenery to run a High School Shooting game as well. Give it a miss you should. Pat |
morrigan | 25 Aug 2010 5:26 a.m. PST |
"Competing cartels, Mexican state forces, US special agents, US forces, US vigilantes" Don't see any reference to shooting babies in the original posters list. I think it sould be a reasonable locale for the type of games you mention. |
cloudcaptain | 25 Aug 2010 5:33 a.m. PST |
Maybe not in Mexico
but in some of the South American Countries that are fighting the cartels openly. |
Sane Max | 25 Aug 2010 5:42 a.m. PST |
Many of these body finds include entire familes Morigan. It isn't pretty to game. Pat |
Sane Max | 25 Aug 2010 5:45 a.m. PST |
Yes Cloud, Columbian or Bolivian Special Forces and Police V Drugs Cartels would be fine, where it is armed men fighting armed irreulars fairly openly – but I would not play a Mexican style one. And it's funny, because I don't get queasy about these things normally – never had a problem with people playing Gulf 2 or Afghan Insurgents V Brits. Pat |
Norman D Landings | 25 Aug 2010 6:34 a.m. PST |
On the one hand, this subject matter is undeniably tragic, repellent, and distasteful. On the other
Conquistadors, Apaches, Romans, and a whole host of other historical forces used comparable practises
and we game them. On the whole, when we game any conflict, we try to recreate the historical and tactical challenges of the situation, without dwelling on specific war crimes or atrocities. Some people have an easier time with that than others
it's a sliding scale. Some won't have SS on the table, others will happily game an ongoing conflict, and have no problem playing the Taliban. To have even considered this subject matter in the first place, I'd guess Dwight's in the latter camp. Personally, I have no objection to a 'War on Drugs' game
but this specific Mexican situation seems long on atrocity and short on tactical engagements. Even without the issue of good taste, the Bolivian or Colombian campaigns suggested by Lenin, or even a U.S.-based Narcotrafficantes vs. SWAT scenario would seem to offer more gaming potential. |
nazrat | 25 Aug 2010 6:49 a.m. PST |
|
thestevothedivo | 25 Aug 2010 7:06 a.m. PST |
Are you guys for real? I agree with Norman D Landings "Good taste"? "Horrible idea" So wait
it's ok to play US special forces invade a foreign sovereign nation in the name of "democracy" (read Cold War loose end, and granted I agree ) and *sdip*
but it's a horrible idea to GAME death squads murdering civilians IN PRINCIPLE? I disagree wholeheartedly Dwight, too, reads like he was keen to focus on other than the civilian killing (which would reduce to what? Line them up against a wall and roll 2d6 each. Any score above a 3 you've made a new orphan
c'mon!) "Competing cartels vs Mexican state forces
and US special agents??? I believe this is going to get a lot worse
will US forces intervene ? Will US vigilantes enter the conflict?" I happen to agree. I also like the idea of designing scenarios such as where two cartels need to reach a given house on the board – one to execute the family inside, one to kidnap them – and the special ops intervene to rescue the family in question. All out war with lots of dead civvies everywhere. Because to ME they're plastic soldiers. Metal, lead and paint. Scenery. A lot of laughs and heartache and bitten nails. My sensitivities lie outside my gaming table. Bring on the SS. Maybe even . It's all A GAME! Lighten up, already |
Ken Portner | 25 Aug 2010 7:18 a.m. PST |
Not a very savory subject. What's next? Gaming the Rwandan Genocide? |
Mardaddy | 25 Aug 2010 7:45 a.m. PST |
I think the words I am looking for are
"Too soon." |
The Hobbybox | 25 Aug 2010 7:50 a.m. PST |
I think the issue of taste in this case depends more on what the objective of the game is. If the objective is something like 'drugs shipment', druggies side must protect it, Spec Ops needs to destroy it, then I have no problem with that. The issue for me is anything that involves the deliberate targetting of non-combatants in any form of points scoring. I wouldn't have a problem gaming something with civvies on the table, even if they can be killed, provided that kills were only something that can happen as an accident, where there is a penalty attached. e.g. bad artilliery deviation In that circumstance, it falls to the player to manage their artillery to limit or eliminate the chances of an artillery based screw-up. |
WarpSpeed | 25 Aug 2010 8:00 a.m. PST |
How about gaming the fast food restaurant massacres of the 80,s and 90s.Im sure there could be alot of fun there
.gang A hits mickies ,gang B hits el grande taco
which rolls up a better tally/score. |
Top Gun Ace | 25 Aug 2010 9:44 a.m. PST |
If you avoid some of the extremely unsavory, and over the top violence on civilians (which makes it fantasy gaming by the way), then I see no reason why you couldn't game it. I'll bet our police, FBI, NSA, and others are doing just that. It's kind of like Miami Vice on steroids. It appears to me the violence there is really escalating, and no one is untouchable, making it an extremely dangerous place. Calderon expects it to get worse. The violence there is on a par with, and in many cases has surpassed that of even Afghanistan and Iraq, and seems to be similar to Pakistan. With all of the double-dealing, and inability to trust others (including the police, military, judges, and politicians), it seems to me to rival, and surpass the Italian Wars of the Renaissance for intrigue. The choices are pretty stark, e.g. join us, or we kill you and your family. With that kind of recruitment policy, it makes it rather hard to refuse. Occasionally, there are even mistaken attacks on others, due to all of the gang activity there, and not always knowing who is working with whom. Occasionally, the bad guys even apologize and release those they've kidnapped due to that. With all the confusion, I imagine it is difficult for even the bad guys to keep track of everyone they are working with, especially when working with corrupt police and military units, and those gang members you thought were on your payroll, but who've decided to switch sides, or start their own little gang. At a distance, an armed soldier, or policeman looks pretty much the same as any other, so its a crapshoot as to which side they are on. I imagine at some point US forces will have to intervene, and/or at least secure our border. If that happens, it will be ugly. US citizens will probably have to protect their own in the region, since the police and border guards are stretched too thin. |
Dr Mathias | 25 Aug 2010 11:11 a.m. PST |
In theory I don't see what would be so wrong gaming a battle between armed Mexican gang members and regular soldiers or anti-drug forces. Nothing says you have to address the horrible stuff behind the scenes, civilian murder, or endorse any ideologies. I'm sure much of the conflict and disgust being expressed is because it is a current topic. I'm still surprised people play current Iraq and Afghanistan games, but it doesn't rain on my parade if they do. I personally don't like to run simulations, I'd rather play fictional encounters, which helps me skirt ethical conflicts. Naturally the further back it happened in time, the easier it is to mythologize and set aside the suffering that had to have happened. I have quite a few Darkest Africa Belgians, but I don't incorporate 99.9% of what the Congo Free State was about. Any student of the period/region knows what happened in the Congo- some of the accounts make me want to puke. I keep the history(which I hold to be important) and the game apart. IMO the Spanish explorers and their missionaries are the epitome of everything vile that can surface in humanity- but people can game them if they want to. I might even play. I once sold a Mordheim witch hunter gang primarily because playing them made me feel dirty. I later realized I was being silly
now I have a 40K Witchhunter army- and they're the most disgusting and vile army 40K has to offer. |
Janick | 25 Aug 2010 11:19 a.m. PST |
"Because to ME they're plastic soldiers. Metal, lead and paint. Scenery. A lot of laughs and heartache and bitten nails. My sensitivities lie outside my gaming table. Bring on the SS. It's all A GAME!" Exactly, couldn't have said it better. "What's next? Gaming the Rwandan Genocide?" You could game it, not the genocide part of course, but of the two sides fighting over their survival. Why/how would anyone ever game a genocide or civilian killings anyways? I'm doing a fictional African country overrun by drug lords, corrupt government, and angry citizens. Oh and of course the US special forces that arrive to restore order and the Russian mafia trying to reestablish the drug trade. Should give give me quite a few interesting games.
|
pavelft | 25 Aug 2010 11:31 a.m. PST |
|
jdpintex | 25 Aug 2010 12:54 p.m. PST |
So AK47 in Mexico? Why not? |
Irish Marine | 25 Aug 2010 1:20 p.m. PST |
Some people want to be too PC and have feelings which I guess is ok, I don't understand it since most of us are WARGAMERS and play games that had tons of people killed in the real thing. But anyway you could game this with ease. Police taking out drug hidouts, going after a local kingpin, the drug lords trying to take back a captured drug boss ect. No one says that you have to have loads of dead civies all over the gameing table or do drivebys and shoot down women and kids. |
mex10mm | 25 Aug 2010 1:25 p.m. PST |
If you take out the human tragedy of both the "war on drugs" in Mexico and the "drug abuse" in the USA you could use "Ambush Alley" rules. The bad guys (narcos/sicarios would be the "Insurgents" (the re-acting player) and the police/armed forces would take the place of the "acting" player; but in this scenario/case the police would have less training and worst weapons than the insurgents. (Sicarios/killers are not well trained but high on drugs and have lot of money to buy modern weapons). Could it be played? I think yes, but
. why? "Narcos" are only cruel, violent,greedy people in Mexico selling drugs to kinds in North American towns and cities. I guess it would not be fun is the "bad" guys get to win. And it will be hard for the Mexican forces (at any level of goverment)to fight "Drug Cartels" until US citizens stop spending millions of US Dollars in drugs. |
CPT Jake | 25 Aug 2010 1:36 p.m. PST |
So, the various gang member figures, SWAT and riot police figures, rioter/protester figures, hostage figures, terrorist figures, bank robber figures, prostitute and pimp figures, gangster figures, Federal Agent and police figures, armed kid figures/zombie torn up kid figures I see previewed, used in game reports, reviewed, advertised, and otherwise shown on TMP must mean there is absolutely ZERO market for non-traditional (other than regular on regular forces) war games, right? As for gaming this, besides Irish Marine's and otherssuggestions, you could have the locals (perhaps with some help from a covert agency) rebel against the local drug warlord and attack his base/covoy/storage facility/production facility, etc like Los Pepes in Colombia. |
Lion in the Stars | 25 Aug 2010 3:09 p.m. PST |
The problem with gaming that is getting information about what's actually happening. The only news that reaches me here in the US is atrocities. Since it seems like the atrocities are all that's happening, of course there's going to be a lot of reaction to gaming it. Ambush Alley would be an excellent system, except it would really suck to be the Federales. Outnumbered and outgunned? not a good place to be. |
vtsaogames | 25 Aug 2010 3:47 p.m. PST |
I'll stick with smoothbore muskets. |
jowady | 25 Aug 2010 4:56 p.m. PST |
Living just across the River from Cd Juarez, sometimes called the deadliest city on earth I have a few thoughts. What you are seeing are ambush murders. Police, or rival gunmen are drawn to a location and ambushed, its usually over in seconds. Gunmen walk ito a nightclub and open fire. Earlier this month we had a car bombing. This last Saturday we had a nasty firefight, with bullets landing in the US (a road and the Rescue Mission were closed.) Three Mexican Cops were wounded and one alleged gunmen was killed, I say alleged because all the evidence except what the cops say is that he was an innocent bystander. Yes, women and children are killed, many by collateral fire (these guys, even the Zetas, a gang composed of former elite soldiers in the Mexican Army, don't seem to be very good marksmen, its a case of just emptying the magazine in your 9mm or AK or AR15 at your opponent at close range. Of course many of the dead are slime as well, often kidnapped, tortured and then killed, often in gruesome, symbolic ways. I certainly hope that the US does not get involved and I don't think we will, as long as most of the violence stays over the border. The Mexicans are very touchy about any kind of US intervention, even if its help. A few years ago they had a cholera epidemic and we sent some Doctors over to help, and the Government went nuts when they found out that the Doctors were from a National Guard Medical unit (even though they were out of uniform. We would either have to invade or be invited and no Mexican politician could possibly invite us. Not to get too political, but the feeling among many on the border is this is a Mexican problem, the Mexicans have unfortunatly reached this point by letting their governement become incredibly corrupt over the past seventy years, and they must solve it. The only way that I can see the US helping would be if everybody stopped doing drugs, and that isn't about to happen. Plus, the Mexican Cartels are evidently now getting into the business of shipping some of their drugs to Europe. Many elements of the police are involved with the cartels, as is the army and the governement. I feel sorry for them, I wouldn't have a problem with "gaming" the sitution, though I would have no interest in doing so. I am sad because Juarez used to have very nice restaurants, bars and nightclubs, but most of those are closed now. We hear about the drug killings (something like ninety over last weekend) but the reality is that all sorts of crime has gone up as well, and supposedly some 200,000 people have moved out of Juarez, but its a nationwide problem. |
pigbear | 25 Aug 2010 5:23 p.m. PST |
Let's be for real. How many "game-able" situations are there here? Or is it just an excuse to dress up a beer and pretzels Wild West type fantasy scenario in modern clothes? I'd rather just put my cowboys and gunslingers on the table and be honest about the fact that I'm playing out a movie script. Have fun how ever you want, but drug related violence isn't for me. |
thestevothedivo | 25 Aug 2010 5:26 p.m. PST |
Drug cartel violence Further information: Mexican Drug War and Juárez Cartel The body count in Mexico stood at 5,400 slayings in 2008, more than double the 2,477 reported in 2007, officials said, with over 1400 in Ciudad Juárez alone. The population of Ciudad Juárez had to change their daily routine and many try to stay home in the evening hours. Public life is almost paralyzed out of fear of being kidnapped or hit by a stray bullet. On 20 February 2009, the U.S. State Department announced in an updated travel alert that "Mexican authorities report that more than 1,800 people have been killed in the city since January 2008." On 12 March 2009, police found "at least seven" partially buried bodies in the outskirts of the city, close to the US-Mexican border. Five severed heads were discovered in ice boxes, along with notes to rivals in the drug-wars. Beheadings, attacks on the police and shootings are common in some regions. In September 2009, 18 patients at a drug rehabilitation clinic called El Aliviane were massacred in a turf battle. Patients were lined up in the corridor and gunned down in the early evening. On September 3, 2009 the Associated Press reported that the day before gunmen broke down the door of the El Aliviane drug rehabilitation center and lined their victims up to a wall shooting 17 dead. The authorities had no immediate suspects or information on the victims. Plagued by corruption and the assassination of many of its officers, the government is struggling to maintain Ciudad Juárez's police force. Other police have quit the force out of fear of being targeted.[32] In late 2008 one murder victim was found near a school hanging from a fence with a pig's mask on his face and another one was found beheaded hanging from a bridge in one of the busier streets of the city. Female sexual homicides Main article: Female homicides in Ciudad Juárez Crosses erected as a monument to victims of the Juárez homicides. Over the past 10 years Juárez has seen over 400 women fall victims to sexual homicides, their bodies often dumped in ditches or vacant lots. In addition, grassroots organizations in the region report that 400 remain missing. Despite pressure to catch the killers and a roundup of some suspects, few believe the true culprits have been found. A 2007 book called The Daughters of Juárez, by Teresa Rodriguez, implicates high-level police and prominent Juárez citizens in the crimes. This topic is also discussed in the 2006 book "The Harvest of Women" by journalist Diana Washington Valdez, and in the novel 2666 by Roberto Bolaño, in which Ciudad Juárez is fictionalized as "Santa Teresa", a border city in Sonora. |
thestevothedivo | 25 Aug 2010 5:33 p.m. PST |
That's from wikipedia, with quotes. That's the facts. They're not pretty. Want a similar post on Chechnya? Or maybe Guantanamo torture? Would I game the drug wars? Probably not. I've too many projects going on at the moment and finding 6mm or even 10mm drug cartel figures is nigh on impossible. I've tried. If you check TMP though you'll find I've posted queries about Sth American drug cartel related gaming in the the past. I feel this whole discussion has gone WAY too far over to the "civilian" bank of the discussion, straying from the point at hand of matching drug-cartel soldiers against each other in scenarios and maybe introducing US Spec Ops or vigilantes. Less ichy PC and more gaming/subject-related ideas, pretty please with sugar on top? |
Doctor X | 25 Aug 2010 8:27 p.m. PST |
I "game" the live version of this many times a year as I travel to Juarez on business. I stay in the factory all day, coming and going before it gets dark. Some times you can hear the gunfire during the day. A few months back two jeeps full of national police got ambushed with six dead officers not more than a few blocks away. Soon I will get to play the Monterrey scenario booklet as well. While it is not nearly as "exciting" as Juarez it is getting there. Should I share my after action reports with the everyoneor maybe start a Yahoo Group? This hits a little too close to home for me to convert into a miniatures game right now. |
jowady | 25 Aug 2010 9:50 p.m. PST |
Soon I will get to play the Monterrey scenario booklet as well. While it is not nearly as "exciting" as Juarez it is getting there. Monterrey had been considered sort of a DMZ because many of the Cartel's bigwigs kept their families there, but like eveything else that would only last so long. The Mayor of a small community outside Monterrey was evidently killed by his own cops. Here in the Valley of Juarez, two women activistsfor Peace were both killed not long ago. The speech teacher at my Girlfriend's School (she's an administrator, no need to call Chris Hansen) was killed two weeks ago while visiting his girlfriend in Juarez. I'm not going to tell folks what they can or cannot game, but I just don't see the fun in any of it. Its not gaming warfare but murder. Thats the way I see it, maybe I'm too close. Man I wish I could go to La Parrilla Suisa for some great Tacos al Carbon and a nice cold Bohemia! |
troopwo | 26 Aug 2010 5:41 a.m. PST |
How many of us include civilians in any part of a wargame? |
Dragon Gunner | 26 Aug 2010 8:30 a.m. PST |
Your best bet for a game would be raids on safe houses, storage sites or mansions (like the end of Scarface) |
Cpt Arexu | 26 Aug 2010 8:45 a.m. PST |
I include civilians. They are part of the terrain (moving cover, movement impediment, etc
). |
Lion in the Stars | 26 Aug 2010 10:52 a.m. PST |
I occasionally include civilians in my games. It really depends on whether they would be 'mobile cover' for one side, or if both sides would lose VPs for civilian casualties. If one side has to worry about civilian casualties in addition to blue-force casualties, then civilians are worth including. If both sides have to worry about civilian casualties, then they might be worth including. I will not include civilians in a wargame when neither side cares what happens to them, because they don't affect the outcome of the game at that point. |
Stepman3 | 26 Aug 2010 8:24 p.m. PST |
Feelings will get hurt no matter what is played. WWII vets have their horrors, Vietnam vets still have nightmare to what was witnessed, Gulf Wars, Afghanistan, Ireland, Chechnya. They all have a deeper meaning to someone. So where does it end? Do we just game elves and goblins? No
Game what you'd like to, if it's not your thing, then pass. But don't tell another person they are wrong, or their moral compass is skewed
Lighten up
It's toy soldiers
|
Cacique Caribe | 07 Jul 2011 11:49 a.m. PST |
|
(Nameo Falso) | 08 Jul 2011 12:41 p.m. PST |
|