Sergio | 23 Aug 2010 2:56 a.m. PST |
I was wondering if someone knows how the Guti really appeared. I saw lot of miniatures of Guti dressed with sheep or goat skins with the primitive look of the cavemen. Also their military history is unknown. On Wikipedia in the page dedicated to the Gutian dynasty of Sumer I read that: "The Gutians practiced hit-and-run tactics, and would be long gone by the time regular troops could arrive to deal with the situation. Their raids crippled the economy of Sumer. Travel became unsafe, as did work in the fields, resulting in famine." In the DBM Army Lists Volume 1 is said only: "Generals and their bodyguards were armed with both composite bow and heavy axe". From the army list I can imagine an army composed by bodyguards, warriors with javelin, skirmishers light equipped, archers and slingers. I'd like to know if they used shields or chariots, for example. There's nothing else around on the Guti? Let's put some light on this topic
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battle master | 23 Aug 2010 3:10 a.m. PST |
Sergio, indeed there is very little around on their appearance. The DBM lists, as do others, puts other Zagros, Taurus and Anatolian Highlanders together, so that includes the Lullubi in the Zagros and the Gasgans in the Anatolian highlands. We have the appearance of the Lullubi on a Stele of the Akkadian King, Naram-Sin, who is shown capaigning in the Highlands and fighting the Lullubi, who are dressed in, what appears to be simple goatskins. Other Highlanders perhaps would have worn other fleeces. At the time of the early bronze age, less settled peoples would perhaps have worn animal skins rather than manufactured materials such as linen? I have based my figures on this conception. As with the Gasgans and other later Zagros Highlanders I have based it on the Hittite look and also the look of Zagros Highlanders from the Iron Age, where Assyrian sources show such Zagros mountain men as wearing sheepskins, albeit with linen kilt and tunics. Shields would have been available it is assumed by the Middle Bronze Age. Gutian was a term used by the settled states of mesopotamia, to denote mountain men, well into the Iron Age, but after the original Gutians had disappeared. Of course at this time in History, nothing is certain, but one has to make a stab at it so to speak and perhaps use common sense, but also, for wargames purposes – what is likely and what looks good. Just my view, but I could be wrong. :-) |
CooperSteveOnTheLaptop | 23 Aug 2010 3:14 a.m. PST |
Taffy was a Gutian, Taffi was a thief
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Sane Max | 23 Aug 2010 3:16 a.m. PST |
I have always felt that there comes a point when a Wargames Designer should be honest – 'no One Knows ANYTHING we can base an army list on. I was going to put together a Plausible Best Guess, but y'know, I have some pride. Screw it. YOU do it.' Pat |
Sane Max | 23 Aug 2010 3:17 a.m. PST |
Oi Steve – My Mum's a Guti. Complaint Lodged with the Editor. Pat |
Sergio | 23 Aug 2010 3:56 a.m. PST |
I've found this: link Interesting pictures. |
CooperSteveOnTheLaptop | 23 Aug 2010 3:57 a.m. PST |
Oh – is she Jenny Agutter? |
CooperSteveOnTheLaptop | 23 Aug 2010 3:59 a.m. PST |
Hmmm
some of those kilted figures in boots look like they'd work for Nordic Bronze Age |
battle master | 23 Aug 2010 4:02 a.m. PST |
Certainly, Steve, you could use them for that. A guy in a fleece or animal skin robe could be used in many primitive armies at the time of the Bronze Age. |
Sergio | 23 Aug 2010 4:11 a.m. PST |
The pictures show "later highlander" units with boots. Is correct? |
battle master | 23 Aug 2010 4:42 a.m. PST |
I feel that by the time of the Middle Bronze Age these guys could have made boots to protect against the rugged and cold mountains. There are images also of Zagros Highlanders and Elamite (also Highlanders) archers as mercenaries in late Akkadian armies of the period wearing boots. |
Sergio | 23 Aug 2010 5:00 a.m. PST |
I took my copy of "Warfare in the Ancient Near East to 1600 BC" from the library
The author (William J. Amblin) says that "Military sources for this period range from vague to non-existent. Only the campaigns of the Gutian king Erridu-pizir have substantial documentation". And he provides the text of an inscription describing the revolt of one of the king's vassals, the king of Madga: Erridu-pizir, the mighty, king of Gutium and the four quarters, hastened [to confront] him [the rebellious king of Madga]. [Since the Gutian ruler of Madga] feared [Erridu-pizar] he retreated [into his own original] mountain [homeland], and [Erridu-pizir] hunted him down, captured him, led him away [captive, and executed] him. Erridu-pizir, the mighty, king of Gutium and the four quarters took [him] away by force through the gate of the god of Gutium, struck him, and killed him, the king [of Madga] Anyway Amblin says that: "Their few inscriptions, however, provide little concrete military information."
What a shame! |
Cerdic | 23 Aug 2010 5:02 a.m. PST |
Correct? Who knows? But if I were living in cold mountains I would want something on me feet! |
battle master | 23 Aug 2010 5:25 a.m. PST |
Hi Sergio. It is "Hamblin" the author that is. Of course we don't know the appearance of these people. In reality they probably just looked the same in costume as everyone else and with not a lot of distinction. The question is, as a wargamer do you want all the contingents in your army looking the same or do you want some distinction between troop types and nations, so that they have some flavour. You can of course build all the armies of the Highlanders with troops from the Nomads or Amorite Kingdoms range. You can mix them all up for a truely chaotic look and you wouldn't be wrong. Up to you. There is enough variety of dress across the ranges for you to do that. For the city-dwelling elite troops I would use the guys with helmets and for others mix and match as you please. That is the advantage of this period is that you can morph many armies from one to another within the period. This is what I have tried to point out on the website. The only difference is change of costume over time rather than by nation, if you know what I mean. |
aecurtis | 23 Aug 2010 7:51 a.m. PST |
>>> It is "Hamblin" the author that is. But he always walked slowly, and without a clear sense of direction. And so they called him
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colin knight | 23 Aug 2010 8:46 a.m. PST |
I feel that the sheepskin mini cloak may have doubled as a shield of some sort. |
Sergio | 23 Aug 2010 9:16 a.m. PST |
I've found some pictorial references in the book "Armies of the Ancient Near East 3000 BC to 539 BC". On page 129 you can find the drawing of Annubanini, chief of the Lullubi. He wears a hat and a short sheepskin kilt, as weapons he got a composite bow and a gamlu (a heavy axe). On the same page there's a Lullubi warrior that, according to the writers: "wears the typical garment of a mountaineer"
a goatskin tied at the right shoulder probably used for provide some protection in battle, he carries a spear as weapon. The Lullubi warrior has a shaved scalp and a long pigtail, looks like this kind of haircut have been features of several highland peoples. Looks like that also the Guti got that pigtail. Authors say that the Guti: "to the Mesopotamian mind, were not distinguishable, from the mass of barbarian highlanders." |
battle master | 23 Aug 2010 10:30 a.m. PST |
Yep, you will find these chaps in my range, Sergio. Chief Annubanini will also be found in the Early Command pack. |
Sergio | 24 Aug 2010 1:52 a.m. PST |
So the conclusion is that all those highlanders (Guti, Lullubi, etc.) are dressed (and I suppose military organized) in the same way |
CooperSteveOnTheLaptop | 24 Aug 2010 7:31 a.m. PST |
Annubanini of the Lullubi sounds like a character out of ASTERIX , you feel there should be some comic pun in the names
I'm sorely tempted to add these to the lead mountain. |
zippyfusenet | 24 Aug 2010 7:39 a.m. PST |
There is a pun, but it's in Sumerian. |
CooperSteveOnTheLaptop | 24 Aug 2010 7:46 a.m. PST |
Ah. I only know Akkadian & Hurrian, so I didn't pick up on it
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CooperSteveOnTheLaptop | 25 Aug 2010 6:38 a.m. PST |
I'm mulling over the potential of these for Battle Companies style campaign, with scope to start out with a tiny skirmish force (bandits, village militia) & build your forces all the way through clan leader, petty warlord, minor king, arch supra badass emperor as your star rises
I may have to bite the bullet & enrage the wife by buying a few packs off CEM
& launch the career of Stum-Ak-Banda Lord of all he surveys
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colin knight | 26 Aug 2010 1:45 p.m. PST |
Steve go on and buy a few. The wife will get over it. I have just sent for a few more. |
Beagle | 31 Dec 2020 10:35 p.m. PST |
battle master, what is "your range?" I need some early bronze age figures… |