Onomarchos | 11 Aug 2010 2:55 p.m. PST |
I finally got the opportunity to sit down and read issue 274 of WI over the past few days. I have been playing EW FOW for some time and had been looking forward to this issue. The main thing that jumped out at me was the camouflage schemes used on all of the German vehicles in the various articles. They all show the pre-war 'cloud' pattern of dark brown over dark gray. Now, I have many books on Panzer colors and all of them are in agreement that this two-tone scheme had been phased out before 1940 in the vast majority of panzer units. So, I had to ask myself if I had missed some new historical research on this subject. The only thing I could find on the web is this article: panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm by the Panzer Tracks folks. I'm not sure that I buy their rational; Steven Zaloga makes it clear in his books that the two color camouflage was not used much in Poland and not at all in France and I rate him as one of the best armor historians of today. So, what do people think? Mark |
Plynkes | 11 Aug 2010 3:05 p.m. PST |
Interestingly enough there was a discussion on this topic just the other day on the LAF, but I admit I didn't follow it to the end, so I'm not sure what conclusion the chaps there came to: link |
PSADennis | 11 Aug 2010 3:12 p.m. PST |
Mark I had the same question myself when I saw the camouflage paint schemas on the upcoming Battlefront Early War Germans. I asked some of the more versed guys in my local game club and they all told me that this pattern was totally gone buy the invasion of France. I was happy with that answer. However
. I pulled off my shelf a copy of Dunkirk 1940 Campaign #219 that came out a few months ago to get myself jazzed up for the upcoming releases and much to my surprise on page 43 is a picture of a German soldier standing by a Pz 35(t) of the 6th Panzer Division from the collection of Thomas Laemleim. By Joe that tank has a cammo pattern on it. Now I know that some will say that the photo is #1 not in color #2 has not date and #3 is from Osprey who many feel authenticity is at times suspect. At least for me it gave me something to think about. Dennis |
Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut | 11 Aug 2010 3:21 p.m. PST |
Battlefront should not be taken as an authority on colors or dates of colors. I have found that the color choices shown on their website to be frighteningly inaccurate at tmes, and I am by no means a historian. |
Doms Decals | 11 Aug 2010 3:29 p.m. PST |
I must admit this is unfamiliar territory to me, but over the last 10 years or so the authorities in the field (such as they are, obviously) seem to have shifted to a pretty firm view that the brown on grey was still de rigeur in May 1940, and that the July '40 order that "henceforth it'll be plain grey" was actually news, not simply an affirmation of existing practice. I've not read enough to be wholly persuaded yet myself, but it's certainly not Battlefront going out on a limb with a silly paint scheme. (Unlike their hideous rendition of the British cruiser tanks box
.) |
Silurian | 11 Aug 2010 3:35 p.m. PST |
I can't for the life of me remember where I saw it, but not too long ago I read what seemed to be a fairly authoritative article that presented the argument that the grey and brown scheme was still in use in France. This camouflage scheme was apparently not universal but some photographic evidence was presented. It was also pointed out that the tonal qualities of the grey and brown are so similar that they are virtually impossible to tell apart on the same afv in most b&w photos. |
Pizzagrenadier | 11 Aug 2010 3:52 p.m. PST |
There was a wargaming and modelling website the name of which escapes me that had a good article on this and even did an experiment where he took a grey/brown panzer model from his collection and snapped a B & W pic and the color differences almost totally disappeared. It would appear that the tonal quality of the two tones is a washout. He also cited lots of original and secondary sources to back up the grey/brown panzer being common in France. (Edit: after finding the site, it doesn't have as much info as I remember
now that I think about it, it was merely what tipped off some reading of my own to back it up). I'll have to try to find it. I am by no means an expert, but it was rather convincing to me. I think some of the resistance is simply due to stubborn tradition. "We have always painted our panzers grey in wargaming!" Still, I don't know if it is enough for me to add brown splotches to all of my Panzers
though I do mostly use my early stuff for Poland '39 and France '40 and less so for Ost Front '41
|
PSADennis | 11 Aug 2010 3:57 p.m. PST |
Folks I said nothing about color tones in my post. Only that its clear from the photo the tank has a cammo pattern on it. Dennis |
Pizzagrenadier | 11 Aug 2010 4:03 p.m. PST |
I found it: wargames.spyz.org/index.html It appears he did not post pics of the B&W experiment, which is disappointing, but there is a link to another source for the info: panzerworld.net/colours.html But I also came across this and mistakenly remember it as a link from that above site, but I now remember simply finding it on my own. panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm Interesting reading though and the wargaming site is a really nice collection of well painted models. Keith |
Onomarchos | 11 Aug 2010 4:17 p.m. PST |
Simon, Thanks for that link
some good discussion there. Dennis, Interesting on the Pz 35(t) picture in the Osprey. That would seem to confirm that some Panzers had camo. In fact, the 35 and 38(t) tanks would have been the tanks that I would have said would not have had it. I will need to see about getting that Osprey. Thanks, Mark |
aecurtis | 11 Aug 2010 4:56 p.m. PST |
Dom's reservations nonwithstanding, the two-tone scheme was the prescribed scheme in effect for the 1939 and 1940 campaigns. link link Those resistant to the idea--including Zaloga--are either: - tied to outdated, inaccurate secondary sources, - unaware of the orders Jentz and Doyle have cited, or - unable to see the difference in B&W photos. The last is the only really inexcusable one; Jentz and Doyle have pointed out the difficulty. The information is out there. Stubborn tradition is powerful, though. Allen |
aecurtis | 11 Aug 2010 5:05 p.m. PST |
"Interestingly enough there was a discussion on this topic just the other day on the LAF, but I admit I didn't follow it to the end, so I'm not sure what conclusion the chaps there came to
" Some
stubborn folks on there, no? I bet they paint all their non-Europeans black, too! Allen |
Onomarchos | 11 Aug 2010 6:11 p.m. PST |
Allen, I must admit that I am stubborn
I have been painting German tanks gray for 40 years. Jentz and Doyle have done some great books (I have several), but I don't see other historians jumping to agree on this 'new' revelation. You mention several times that we can't distinguish between the two colors in B&W photos, but I have B&W photos where I can see two colors (from before 1940). I also have seen color photos where you can't see but one color (on tanks in France). I wish I could see the latest article on this, but the forum at World War Two Zone seems to be down. Or, maybe we can hope Jentz publishes a book on it. Mark |
Pizzagrenadier | 11 Aug 2010 6:22 p.m. PST |
The wheels of the military history field turn slowly. There is enough evidence to support it where only a few years ago it was flat out rejected or not even known about. The argument now seems not to be over whether the scheme existed, but how extensive it was in the France Campaign. |
Onomarchos | 11 Aug 2010 7:01 p.m. PST |
So, here are a few color pictures that could have been taken in 1940 or before. They don't seem to support two-tone camouflage. Mark picture link link link |
aecurtis | 11 Aug 2010 7:40 p.m. PST |
The first and second photos are the same vehicle. You can clearly see the two colors, changing from (front to rear) brown then gray then brown on the turret side, and also on the hull.. The third is dark, but I see a color change on the turret side. I'd like to see the description of the fourth one--I suspect it's from after the French campaign--but I'm not wading through 142 pages of WWII in Color to find it! Allen |
aecurtis | 11 Aug 2010 7:43 p.m. PST |
By the way, I'm not out to convert anybody. I've laid out the references. Anybody can do what they want. BF definitely has the British armor colors wrong. Mike Starmer has shown what they're supposed to be, and there are plenty of folks ignoring *his* work, relying on the same old erroneous sources. Whatever. Carry on. Allen |
aecurtis | 11 Aug 2010 10:19 p.m. PST |
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nickinsomerset | 12 Aug 2010 2:00 a.m. PST |
I must say I find it very difficult to see any tonal changes on the photos, that being the case if there is a two tone scheme then it is far too subtle to be an effective disruptive pattern, Tally Ho! |
Doms Decals | 12 Aug 2010 3:33 a.m. PST |
I must say I find it very difficult to see any tonal changes on the photos,
I think there lies the problem. The turret's usually clearer than the hull, though, due to less clutter and shadow. Taking the Panzer II in the first two photos, even I can pretty clearly see the front half of the turret's grey, next third brown, and final sixth grey again. (Which oddly is the reverse of what Mr C sees, but at least we're agreed on two colours
.) that being the case if there is a two tone scheme then it is far too subtle to be an effective disruptive pattern,
Which would at least explain why they dropped it
. Dom, who remains to be convinced of how widespread it was. |
nickinsomerset | 12 Aug 2010 3:49 a.m. PST |
"I think there lies the problem. The turret's usually clearer than the hull, though, due to less clutter and shadow. Taking the Panzer II in the first two photos, even I can pretty clearly see the front half of the turret's grey, next third brown, and final sixth grey again. (Which oddly is the reverse of what Mr C sees, but at least we're agreed on two colours
.)" I remain to be convinced from the photos and having been around armour both in bks, on exercise and operations for much of the last 26 years have seen how dust, mud, water, oil, rations, spilt beer, general clagage etc etc can affect the tonal returns from kit. It would be nice to be convinced there was a two tone pattern in use as panzer grey is so dull! Tally Ho! |
Klebert L Hall | 12 Aug 2010 4:21 a.m. PST |
The only really legitimate answer (barring a time machine) is "maybe". The brown-on-gray is at least plausible, if you like it, use it. If you don't, there are other plausible choices. -Kle. |
combatpainter | 12 Aug 2010 4:54 a.m. PST |
There are no written painting order guidelines? Is that strange? Don't they always insist on keeping it uniform by stating the which colors should be used and when on vehicles and equipment??? Or was this camo up to the units to add. Something must be written somewhere. Like this: On 1940-06-12, it was ordered that units would be issued paint, rather than having to buy it from the suppliers, and that only Dunkelgrau would be issued. On 1940-07-31, it was ordered that all tanks should only be painted in Dunkelgrau Nr.46. This was in order to save paint. Dunkelgrau Nr.46 was renamed Dunkelgrau RAL 7021 on 1941-02-10. |
GeoffQRF | 12 Aug 2010 5:16 a.m. PST |
Taking the Panzer II in the first two photos, even I can pretty clearly see the front half of the turret's grey, next third brown, and final sixth grey again Having worked with photos and retouching for 18 years, and taken these into Photoshop and played with enhancing tones, saturation, etc, (ever seen a white window frame look black and a black table look white?) I know how deceptive a photo can be. I'd still go with 'maybe'. That turret side isn't flat, colour film wasn't as stable back then and it could just be a tint in the shadow. There does appear to be a warmer central area, which might or might not be a different tonal value, possibly a brown, but if so it is very, very subtle, which would seem to negate the intended effect and draw into question the use of patterns. That said
This was in order to save paint would seem to imply there was something before it that was using more paint. |
aecurtis | 12 Aug 2010 7:13 a.m. PST |
"There are no written painting order guidelines? Is that strange? Don't they always insist on keeping it uniform by stating the which colors should be used and when on vehicles and equipment??? Or was this camo up to the units to add. Something must be written somewhere." There were. The orders are cited on the World War 2 Zone forum, which is down. They are printed in the Panzer Tracts volume on the Pz I (I don't feel like typing it out), as well as in the Panzerwaffe volumes cited on the FOW forum thread. But from the cached copy of the World War 2 Zone thread: ______ Between 1927 and 1937-07-19, German tanks were painted in the Buntfarbenanstrich pattern, which consisted of RAL Nr.17 Erdgelb-matt, Nr.18 Braun-matt and Nr.28 Grün-matt. This pattern was sprayed in a wavy pattern, with a different pattern for each vehicle. The borders should be either feathered, or drawn up with one to three cm. wide stripes of RAL Nr.5 Schwarz-matt. On 1937-07-19, it was ordered that all the camouflage pattern should be Dunkelbraun Nr.45 and Dunkelgrau Nr.46, spray with feathered edges. The vehicles painted in the former Buntfarbenanstrich shouldn't be repainted in the new pattern unless they had to be repainted anyway. On 1938-11-07, it was ordered that all vehicles should be painted in the new pattern by the troops. In addition, it was specified that the pattern should consist of a base coat of Dunkelgrau Nr.46 with one-third of the base colour covered by Dunkelbraun Nr.45. ___________ The only "plausible" alternative is that a Panzer unit in the Heer ignored the 1938 order to paint their vehicles in the two-tone camouflage for the next two years. Plausible? Sure. But then the not-repainted vehicle would be in the previous three-tone scheme, *not* repainted in overall grey. Allen |
aecurtis | 12 Aug 2010 7:29 a.m. PST |
Bet some of you will be disinclined to see the two-tone camo on the Sd.Kfz 263s and Sd.Kfz. 231 here: link But it's there. By the way, it's possible to conduct this exercise in futility for much longer than this: link Except that in that case, in the end, the original modeller was converted. It only took eight months. Fascinating false arguments on there, too. Allen |
nickinsomerset | 12 Aug 2010 8:31 a.m. PST |
Bit of a silly remark, on those photos it is quite obvious. All I have said is that on the other phots it is not, and there are many factors that will give a difference in the tonal returns – where is the false argument there? Tally Ho! |
Thresher | 12 Aug 2010 8:35 a.m. PST |
Allen, Would you say that Battlefront got the color choices wrong for the German armor as well? In your opinion, do you think they are too stark in contrast to one another? I don't have any RAL paint chips in front of me so I would be interested in opinions. I do realize, that color perception is different for everybody. I will have to get the Starmer books regarding the British clors. I didn't think the colors looked right to me, either, but I wasn't quite sure. Ken |
aecurtis | 12 Aug 2010 9:19 a.m. PST |
"
where is the false argument there?" There is no option for plain grey until the summer of 1940. Any vehicles that their units neglected to paint in the two-tone scheme as ordered in 1938 would be in the earlier three-tone scheme--which did not include grey. The two-tone scheme was applied at the factories beginning in late 1938. Prior to that, the authorized schemes (first three-tone, then two-tone) were applied by the units. What option was there to acquire only grey paint and paint the vechiles in a solid color? Logically, any photos that *appear* to show a single color are either: - two-color, and the distinction cannot be seen in the photo due to a variety of cirumstances. - not actually from 1939 or early 1940. "Would you say that Battlefront got the color choices wrong for the German armor as well? In your opinion, do you think they are too stark in contrast to one another?" From the online photos, there does appear to be too much contrast. But just as some images show virtually no contrast, there are others that show a clear separation. Battlefront's brown appears too light, compared to the RAL colors. Allen |
WarHighlander | 12 Aug 2010 5:15 p.m. PST |
I played around with making one of Battlefront's example photos grayscale. Before: picture After: picture |
Etranger | 12 Aug 2010 8:26 p.m. PST |
That Aeroscale link is very interesting Allen, especially the imput from the professional photographer. FWIW Jentz' writing & the Panzerwaffe books have convinced me that the two tone scheme was very widespread (if not universal) during the 1940 campaign. |
Moko54 | 12 Aug 2010 9:22 p.m. PST |
Just throwing my 2 cents in here Ok, no links or prophetic statements, just my HO. What is ordered from the top on down doesn't always result in action by the troops at the bottom. For example the 'Flying Circus,' of WWI fame, were ordered to paint their aircraft in 'broken colors' (camo) to make them harder to spot from above. Of course the men in the field took this to the nth degree. Not the result the boys at the top wanted, and after it had been taken too far they could do little to change the 'monster' they had created. It was hard to argue with men like the Baron and Voss. The same rules would apply to WWII, or for that matter any period in modern history, a change from the top doesn't mean that it is going to happen all that fast at the bottom. This would probably resulted in units at the bottom 'avoiding' the change and also result in photographs that still show the 'camo' pattern that was supposed to be gone even a year, or more, later. Again just my 2 cents. |
Derek H | 13 Aug 2010 6:02 a.m. PST |
Moko54 wrote:
This would probably resulted in units at the bottom 'avoiding' the change and also result in photographs that still show the 'camo' pattern that was supposed to be gone even a year, or more, later. And there are indeed pictures of German vehicles in the old three coloured camouflage (which was ordered to be overpainted in 1938) in both Poland and France in 1940. |
Red Line | 13 Aug 2010 8:19 a.m. PST |
On the panzer II the tonal change looks too close to the shadow from the open hatch, also has a vertical edge in front, behind and horizontal edge below, taking the vehicle as deck as base line. |
John the OFM | 13 Aug 2010 10:11 a.m. PST |
I was all set to paint a friend's Pz38-t with gray primer, wash and drybrush. NOW, you tell me I have to slap on some BROWN??? Man
. Seriously, any links to pictures of tank models in the "approved" brown and greay camo? Three color camo????? My brain hurts. I am going to go spray my Yank halftracks with a leaky $12 USD can. May as well use it all up. |
aecurtis | 13 Aug 2010 11:33 a.m. PST |
Scroll down past the prep work on page 1: link Weathering and finished product (including a B&W shot) on page 2. Allen |
John the OFM | 13 Aug 2010 12:12 p.m. PST |
Very subtle camo
|
tuscaloosa | 13 Aug 2010 1:29 p.m. PST |
All good arguments in favor of camouflage, but for me, what it boils down to is, I'm not going to repaint my early war German tanks. |
jtkimmel | 13 Aug 2010 1:33 p.m. PST |
I used to do WW2 scale modeling before switching to wargaming so I understand where the guys in that Aeroscale forum are coming from. I'm all for accuracy and research, but as a wargamer, I'm not going to worry about repainting any of my various scale early war German tanks. First, this applies to the first 10 or 11 months of the war and most of us use the same castings for more than that. Second, that fella painted his Pz I very nicely, then he removed the weathering, added the brown, weathered it again and it looked basically the same. How many times did the various posters say with all the dust and crap on the tanks you can't tell anyway? |
Derek H | 13 Aug 2010 1:57 p.m. PST |
I've spent ages wading through all the links above and I'd suggest that the answer to the original question is yes, Battlefront have got it wrong. Not because they're suggesting that German tanks should be painted grey and brown for Poland and France, but because the specific colours they've chosen to paint them contrast too much. Having said that I agree with jtkimmel, you can get it right for Poland, France or Russia, not all of them. I'd be happy to use the same models for games set in any of those campaigns. If I was to do early war forces, and one day I'll do it in 10mm, I'd do Germans for France, two colour black and white crosses. If I already had some early war German tanks painted I certainly wouldn't redo them. The less said about Battlefront's suggestions for British early war tank colours the better. |
Russell120120 | 13 Aug 2010 7:53 p.m. PST |
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DanLewisTN | 14 Aug 2010 6:48 p.m. PST |
Bet some of you will be disinclined to see the two-tone camo on the Sd.Kfz 263s and Sd.Kfz. 231 here:link But it's there.
If you go to this same web site and select 'download pictures',under the section October 2007, there are two cigarette cards. One has a two tone color scheme which looks like Yellow and green, and the second looks like solid gray with no secondary color. Don't know how all this fits in frankly. link |
Pizzagrenadier | 14 Aug 2010 7:37 p.m. PST |
Actually, you can faintly see the two tone on the Panzer Is in that postcard. |
aecurtis | 14 Aug 2010 8:58 p.m. PST |
"One has a two tone color scheme which looks like Yellow and green
" That would be "yellow" or Erdgelb-matt (one), "green" or Grün-matt (two), and "brown" or Braun-matt (three). In other words, the Buntfarbenanstrich pattern. Yep, the Dunkelbraun patches are visible on the Pz. Is. More examples to show how even the Buntfarbenanstrich can be hard to pick out in B&W pics: link link Allen |
TankGuy | 16 Aug 2010 11:29 p.m. PST |
Correct color schemes are nice but the same model: a. could have several different schemes depending on the year, location, and 'application' b. could have different markings because the markings changed, markings were ordered to be replaced (as at Kursk for Germans), or there wasn't time to paint them on c. do you have Panzers in dark gray for summer 1941-42 in Russia with the dust, etc. (i.e. weathered) and then the same models in whitewash to fight in the winter? I find it hard enough just to find decals for more than one vehicle in 1/48 in the same unit; or for the III Battalion in 15mm or for putting 3 sets of numbers on a turret to be painting vehicles for a specific battle. Germans in Panzer Gray before 1943, Panzer Yellow after as the base. As long as the color is close I don't see a big problem. By the way, I would rely on Jentz. TG |
WarHighlander | 18 Aug 2010 4:51 p.m. PST |
New Early War Panzer Camo/Numbering article just posted on BF's website. link |
BlackKnight | 25 Aug 2010 8:47 a.m. PST |
If the naked eye has trouble spotting the dunkelbraun in a BW photo that just goes to show you why they stopped using it anyway. Painting my early war German tanks plain panzer gray makes them "close enough" to use for the early western front AND the early eastern front. More bang for your buck, and less work to boot! |
GrossKaliefornja | 21 Sep 2010 10:24 p.m. PST |
Our knowledge of painting orders is too small & simplistic. Nobody has found 'orders' to paint all the new tanks in 1942 France & Ukraine yellow and/or sand, yet they were. Photos show examples over & over of how long barrel PzIII, PzIV, & StuGIII armor are light colored, while the older armor PzII, early PzIII/IV/StuGIII are still in grey, suggesting that the lighter color came from the factory. I'd like to see the documentation behind that. Until then, the book is still open. |
GrossKaliefornja | 22 Sep 2010 7:30 a.m. PST |
I was just reading through my books last night, both Chory & Restayn independently view solid Dark Grey as the predominant color in the French campaign. I'll take the word of two European Panzer color specialists over two American nuts and bolts guys (Jentz & Zaloga) any day of the week |
Duke of Plaza Toro | 08 Nov 2010 11:04 p.m. PST |
Just to revisit this issue – try going here
link and then select the "Victory in Warsaw" link from the drop down menu. You will find a really nice colour shot of a couple of Pz IV's at the Warsaw victory parade. Clearly 1939 from the sold white crosses on the turret rears. This is an original picture (not colourised) from Hugo Jaeger's colour photos (now owned by Time Life, I believe). There is NO brown to be seen here whatsoever (except the rusting exhausts). I am very much in the 'camp' that the post France 1940 regulation officially dropping the two tone brown / grey scheme for solid grey was simply a 'rubber stamping' of a policy that had already been common practice in the German army for many months. It was brought in supposedly because of a shortage of the brown paint, and like all military shortages probably was not officially recognised by the army high-ups until long after the shortage had already emerged as a problem for those working on the ground. No doubt there were some panzers rolling around France still sporting the old brown / grey colour scheme (perhaps quite a lot), but I'm confident most were sporting a new coat of solid grey paint. This picture certainly suggests that these two tanks at least had been spruced up for the Warsaw victory parade in overall grey. So it seems the shortage of brown paint was already been left as early as October 1939? |