John the OFM | 01 Jul 2010 7:11 a.m. PST |
Are there any studies or statistics out on what were the major Big Cat Killers in WW2? I would like to see a breakdown by cause and weapon, if such a thing exists. It would tickle me no end to see that one fell victim to a Lee's 37mm gun in Tunisia, or a Boys antitank rifle. |
Jovian1 | 01 Jul 2010 7:24 a.m. PST |
Mechanical failure and being over-run. Soviet high caliber guns, rockets, artillery. Just my guesses! |
Garand | 01 Jul 2010 7:27 a.m. PST |
Sledgehammers is a good book on this subject, wrt the Tiger tank. The biggest cat-killer there wasn't enemy gunfire, but mechanical breakdowns forcing the crew to destroy the vehicle when it couldn't be recovered. Damon. |
HMSResolution | 01 Jul 2010 7:30 a.m. PST |
I vaguely recall seeing a writer make the claim that at least some German crews would blow up their vehicles after they were rendered unserviceable by enemy action and list them as "destroyed by crew", which certainly conforms pleasantly with my own prejudices. |
BW1959 | 01 Jul 2010 7:31 a.m. PST |
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Samurai Elb | 01 Jul 2010 7:35 a.m. PST |
Specially Tiger II : 1) No gazoline any more meaning needs too much gazoline. 2) Cannot cross rivers because too heavy for bridges Crews must bail out and leave tigers II alone because of this reasons. Please execuse english errors it is not my native language. Samurai Elb |
freerangeegg | 01 Jul 2010 7:43 a.m. PST |
I seem to remember that one of the first tiger IIs destroyed on the Normandy front was blown up by a humble 2" mortar. The bomb dropped down a hatch and set off the tiggers own ammo. Must have been a heck of a shock to both sides! |
PKay Inc | 01 Jul 2010 8:00 a.m. PST |
The latest Osprey campaign series on Operation Nordwind has a photo of a Jagdpanther that was destroyed by an M36 that maneuvered to its flank and pumped a few rounds into it. Boom. |
Pizzagrenadier | 01 Jul 2010 8:04 a.m. PST |
The Jagdpanther in the Imperial War Museum was knocked out by a flank shot at less than 100m by a humble Sherman. It's not the size of the gun, but how you use it ;) |
Big Red | 01 Jul 2010 8:04 a.m. PST |
Samurai Elb, No need to apologize. It is easy to understand your meaning. Please keep posting! Another problem that the Panzertruppen had was lack of trained crews. Little training, no experience and out of gas. Oops! Bill. |
Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 01 Jul 2010 8:09 a.m. PST |
Surely one problem with such a study would be mis-identification by allied troops. I was under the impression that allied troops used to class every German tank as a tiger (this could just be an wartime legend however) which would cloud any findings on the study if troops mis-identified MK IVs as tigers all the time. |
Legion 4 | 01 Jul 2010 8:12 a.m. PST |
IIRC, a Tiger I was KO'd by a UK 57mm AT gunin Tunisia
And I'd say overall
besides non-combat losses, like mechanical breakdowns, running out of fuel, etc.
I'd think CAS of all types certainly may have taken out "the lion's share" of the German big cats
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Dan Cyr | 01 Jul 2010 8:16 a.m. PST |
Somewhere there is a history of a Tiger II company in 1945 (10 tanks) that lists each loss, tank by tank, of the entire unit as it attempted to move to the front lines. Not one was lost to combat with each of the ten tanks got stuck in a ditch, could not escape across a small bridge, transmission burnt out, engine failure, etc. In the end none ever actually got into combat. Insightful, if depressing for any German commander aware of the investment made in them. They were slow, mechanically unreliable and vastly out numbered. Unless they were on very open grounds their gun's range was no better than their much smaller opponents. While their armor was impressive, in effect it made them isolated immobile castles with limited range weapons (due to terrain). Really only of value if on the defensive as they were too slow and apt to fall apart if used on the offensive (and prone to attract the attention of aircraft and heavy artillery). Fearful, but not as valuable as if the Germans had built 4-5 more Pz IVH models instead for each. Dan |
aegiscg47 | 01 Jul 2010 8:28 a.m. PST |
I'm at work, so I'm going from memory about a book I read about armor battles in Normandy. The Germans lost approximately 2,000 tanks, but only 550-600 were knocked out by Allied armor/AT guns. The others were knocked out by artillery, naval fire, aircraft, or abandoned due to lack of fuel or mechanical problems. Of the 200 or so tanks destroyed in the Falaise pocket(although there were thousands of other vehicles), 95% of those were abandoned by their crews. On a side note from those same Normandy stats, it looked like the Germans used over 2,000 mines for each Allied tank knocked out! Not much bang for the buck there! |
Fred Cartwright | 01 Jul 2010 8:41 a.m. PST |
P-47's Not P-47's or any other aircraft. In fact all the data shows that not many tanks of any type were knocked out by aircraft. Major tank killers are other tanks and AT guns. When you get to close country like the streets of Berlin then hand held AT weapons take over. |
Ditto Tango 2 1 | 01 Jul 2010 8:47 a.m. PST |
Folks, there's lots and lots of allied battle accounts where the big cats were taken out. I don't need to get into citing them, I don't think. Our problems in understanding this, I think, in our wargames are the limitations of the 10,000 foot general and the size of the table – it's difficult in many games to be able to outflank a Panther to get to its side. While it was pretty dangerous hunting the big cats without huge stonks of artillery and/or Typhoon, Thunderbolt, and other cab ranks, it did happen and successfully. -- Tim |
Fred Cartwright | 01 Jul 2010 8:47 a.m. PST |
IIRC, a Tiger I was KO'd by a UK 57mm AT gunin Tunisia
Depends what you mean by KO'd. That particular Tiger is in running condition at Bovington Tank Museum. A 6pdr round jammed the turret ring and the crew bailed. |
Top Gun Ace | 01 Jul 2010 9:05 a.m. PST |
Panthers and Tigers could be fairly easily knocked out, or immobilized from the sides, or rear, by even some of the weakest guns of their day, e.g. a 57mm A/T gun for the mid-late war period. I imagine as many Tigers were destroyed by their crews as were by the enemy, once they became bogged down, broke down, ran out of fuel, or had a tread damaged in combat. The frequency with which this occurred caused the Germans to issue an official policy to not try to pull other Tigers out of being bogged down with Tigers, or to use them to tow the tanks to a rear area. Two 18 ton halftracks were to be used instead. You can see pictures where that is sometimes being violated, but they put that in place since it placed a large strain on the engines and transmissions of an already overloaded tank. |
sector51 | 01 Jul 2010 9:08 a.m. PST |
"The Jagdpanther in the Imperial War Museum was knocked out by a flank shot at less than 100m by a humble Sherman." Well several shots and you can look through the holes. Yep the side armour of the Panther was not good. |
Caesar | 01 Jul 2010 10:01 a.m. PST |
90mm anti-aircraft guns if you play FoW! |
deldietch | 01 Jul 2010 10:58 a.m. PST |
There is actually a book on this. The author traced every Tiger IE serial number to track down where it was finally killed/destroyed. He ended up with a comprehensive listing of what killed every Tiger IE and in which theater. I ran into the guy once at the hobby store. I'll see if I can digg out his info and book. |
Lion in the Stars | 01 Jul 2010 12:05 p.m. PST |
Depends what you mean by KO'd. That particular Tiger is in running condition at Bovington Tank Museum. A 6pdr round jammed the turret ring and the crew bailed. If the crew bailed and the Germans didn't recover it, then you have a tank effectively killed by a 6pdr. See also "mission kill". |
Martin Rapier | 01 Jul 2010 1:57 p.m. PST |
"The Jagdpanther in the Imperial War Museum was knocked out by a flank shot at less than 100m by a humble Sherman." I believe it was a Cromwell rather than a Sherman. Panthers of all types had very thin side armour and were very vulnerable to flank shots, 9th RTR Churchills knocked out two with flank shots and moderate range (about 700m looking at the map) at Cheux, they also got a Jagdpanther with a flank shot at 1000m range at Nispen in Holland. In 'By Tank into Normandy' the author recounts how one Panther was taken under a hail of fire from the side and the crew were bailing before it had even come to a halt. Tigers were tougher to knock out, at least with medium AT weapons, as they had so much more bulk and much thicker side armour. Wittmans No 1 priority target was always enemy AT guns as they generated sufficient volume of fire to be a threat of generating mission kills if nto outright knock outs. It is perhaps notable that his lone(ish) action at Villers Bocage was ended by a 6pdr. I'd not heard about the 2" mortar vs Tiger II before, but one Tiger II was knocked out near Oosterbeek by a 3" mortar bomb which landed on the engine deck and set it on fire. Lt Gorman of course rammed one with his Sherman near Cagny, then went back for a Firefly to finish it off. Anyway, Tigers and Panthers were just tanks, and as vulnerable to the sorts of things which affect tanks as any other – mechanical failure, getting stuck in obstacles, being shot at by anti-tank weapons, having blokes stick socks filled explosives to the wheels
. The only vehicle the Germans treated differently from a tactical pov were Tigers, as long as they were relatively invulnerable, and in 1944 even that changed and they were instructed to use cover, fire & movement etc like the rest of the panzerwaffe. |
Number6 | 01 Jul 2010 6:46 p.m. PST |
Tiger I's during Goodwood at Normandy lost several to the carpet bombing – then when they moved up to counterattack, two more were destroyed at long range by some unknown attacker, something the commander had never seen on the Eastern Front, so he withdrew, not willing to chance the remainder. After the war it now seems that they were destroyed at 2500 yards or so by a Luftwaffe 88 battery that misidentified them. Here's one of the bombed Tigers. picture |
Mobius | 01 Jul 2010 7:45 p.m. PST |
Luftwaffe 88 battery that misidentified them. I was reading Glantz's book on Staligrad. In one account Luftwaffe ground units accounted for 5 German tanks one day. Who's side are they on? |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 01 Jul 2010 9:17 p.m. PST |
Hitler himself. By being so enamored with his "big cats" and other pet superweapon projects, all the limited resources of Germany were wasted. Had Germany went with quantity over quality, the outcome of WWII might've been quite different. Then again maybe not, since Germany had to fight with boys starting in '44. |
Marc33594 | 02 Jul 2010 4:31 a.m. PST |
This source breaks down Tiger losses by lost in action and destroyed by crew, no idea as to accuracy PDF link |
Etranger | 02 Jul 2010 6:19 a.m. PST |
Mechanical failure & lack of fuel were the biggest killers. Most of the other oddities have been mentioned. Martin – I've seen the story of the 2" mortar too – as I recall it the Tiger was in the process of rearming & the bomb set off the 88mm shells stacked on the tank. Joe Elkins must have been one of the biggest individual big cat killers – 3 in a few minutes, possibly including WIttmann. He got a Mark IV too for luck. Funnily enough it was the only time he fought as a tank gunner. Good work that man. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Ekins Here's John Gormans tale. Note that the medal citation gets the German tank wrong, despite the photographic evidence. link |
christot | 02 Jul 2010 9:55 a.m. PST |
"There is actually a book on this. The author traced every Tiger IE serial number to track down where it was finally killed/destroyed. He ended up with a comprehensive listing of what killed every Tiger IE and in which theater. I ran into the guy once at the hobby store. I'll see if I can digg out his info and book." I bet he was a barrel of laughs
How come I'm not suprised you met him in a hobby shop rather than a lap-dancing club?
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Tirailleur corse | 07 Jul 2010 4:54 a.m. PST |
The Panthers were killed by their gear boxes and transmissions alone
. |
donlowry | 07 Jul 2010 10:34 a.m. PST |
Any data on what killed Allied tanks? |
Marc33594 | 07 Jul 2010 11:47 a.m. PST |
For Western Allies yes. WO 291/1186 "The Comparative Performance of German Anti-Tank Weapons During WW II" spells out loses, by theater, in detail. Here is a link to a nice summary: link Unfortunately it does NOT detail losses by combat and non-combat (mechanical failure). |
Martin Rapier | 09 Jul 2010 3:40 a.m. PST |
John Ellis also includes some summary stats in 'The Sharp End of War'. In Peter Beales history of 9th RTR, the regiment lost more Churchills to mechanical failure and bogging in the Battle of the Reichswald than to enemy action. Mechanical failure was always a problem with 1940s era tanks (and modern ones!), so efficent recovery and repair services were needed. Remind me how many panzers were lost during the unopposed occupation of Czechoslovakia again
. |
monongahela | 09 Jul 2010 7:33 a.m. PST |
Guys with cutting torches and wrenches claimed a lot as well. |
Jemima Fawr | 09 Jul 2010 7:45 a.m. PST |
The 2-inch mortar story is largely true, although the 2-inch mortar bomb actually ignited the ammunition truck that was conducting a resupply to the adjacent Tiger II. The consequent explosion caused a chain-reaction that set off the Tiger II's ammunition. There is a famous photo of Allied troops examining the Tiger II, whose turret is at a slight tilt, having been dismounted by the internal explosion. The incident took place at Le Plessis-Grimoult (on the southern slope of Mont Pincon), during Operation 'Bluecoat' in August 1944. |
Rudysnelson | 09 Jul 2010 8:51 a.m. PST |
Pershings had a very good record in the last months of the war against Tiger 2 and Panthers. |
Goose666 | 10 Jul 2010 4:08 a.m. PST |
The US army will probably have records with such statistics in their intelligence files which i believe you can not days request/obtain from them as they have been unclassified. I cannot recall the particular website, but some googling may find it. |
BlackWidowPilot | 10 Jul 2010 8:34 a.m. PST |
Aircraft did indeed kill Tigers and Panthers (A) *if* they broke their suspension and they could not be recovered or repaired, or (B) more frequently indirectly by having the Sturmoviks, Tempests/Typhoons, and P-47s exterminating all of the crucial softskin transports and support echelons so necessary to keep any combat formations operating at any sort of combat proficiency beyond a few days or weeks. Leland R. Erickson Grayhawk Studios grayhawkstudios.com
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