"Oxygen Wars!?" Topic

With the spill in the Gulf,
link
Could the oils destroys most of or kills off the plankton that makes most of the oxygen we breath?
what lengths will governments go to protect their citizens, and what shelters and equipment would be needed,
Now the gaming side of it.
How would you game it, if you had to limit your troops movement or outdoor time due to oxygen requirements, what would be the requirements for operating vehicle that needs oxygen just to run? What would vehicles look like if you had to refit them with oxygen tanks? Shelter requirements and equipment like rebreathers and what figures would you use.

Doug

Plankton does not make most of the oxygen we breathe. It makes a very significant minority, though.

Plankton's more significant role is in transferring carbon to the bottom of the sea. Also being the base of the oceanic food chain.

The spill in the Gulf will not wipe out planetary plankton.

One more question how would you regenerate oxygen for your shelters and refills?

Doug

how would you regenerate oxygen for your shelters and refills?

Not very well read are you?

With water and electrolysis, the same way it is done on submarines.

You do realize this is a rather silly premise.

Donald~

I'm sure Warmonkey is very sorry he doesn't live up to your standards………

So the subject might be silly, this is sci-fi isn't, the what if, just another idea of play and gaming, is it placable? Even I don't believe this spill would destroy the worlds plankton, but depending on what research papers you read it is estimated 50 to 70 percent of the worlds oxygen comes from phytoplankton, some claim 90% but even I feel that's to high of a claim, but what if? Yes I am well read, I totally understand electrolysis process and carbon scrubbers and so on, I was just opening the subject to other ideas and concepts. so in a humorous way "Don't pop my fantasy bubble with your technical dart". LOL

Doug

I'm sure Warmonkey is very sorry he doesn't live up to your standards………

…and yet he does!

WM-every "what if" is rather silly; this perhaps a bit more then many.

This thread is listed on SciFi but also Modern which suggests real live science.

You asked a question I answered it. If it popped your bubble make your bubbles out of a more resiliant concept, or just disregard the input you don't want, I certainly do. Faith deflects all darts! I can't speak to phytoplankton populations but oil floats; not a dart just a thought.

If you want to game this then by all means do! Please post photos and reports though as really thats the fun bit.

Donald~
…very sorry that folks think that other folks need to somehow measure up.

Edit: Oh and I recall reading a short story years ago about a family living under multiple tented layers of blankets. Unusual solar flares caused the sun to cool dramatically instantly freezing the atmosphere. Most living things died; however the families' dad was an amateur astrophysicist and predicated correctly the end of the world. Anyway they had to scoop the right layer of snow daily to melt oxygen in the tent, the world was a giant freezer and they were eventually discovered by scientists that had actually prepared and were living underground.

Throw in some ice zombies (because apparently every game has to have zombies these days) and I think you've got a very silly perfectly reasonable game.

There was a toy line with an accompanying comic called "Air Raiders" in the late '80s that used a similar premise, that the breathable oxygen was limited or some such. So the idea isn't really that far-fetched. IIRC, they slved the electrolysis solution by making the world a desert?

I don't know, it's been a long time and a little brain damage scrambles a lot of memories…

and a little brain damage scrambles a lot of memories…

Probably from the aforementioned oxygen depletion!

Well I am basing it on real science anything covering the ocean surface effects the Photic Zone of the ocean which can go to depths of about 200 meter depending on the transparency of the water. This is the primary zone for phytoplankton and most marine life, blocking the light blocks the process or slows it down to which the phytoplankton produces only enough oxygen for it's own survival, blocking too much light can kill off the phytoplankton, therefor a spill large enough could have a very adverse effect in the immediate area, reducing the percentage of oxygen to the area. Now add toxic fumes vaporizing from the oil to the air surface area you could be in harms way, now of course the odds of anything to this scale to happen is very low. So scientifically it could happen provided enough terrorist or eco-terrorist attacked enough oil rigs around the world and create a large enough spill globally, or just hire BP LOL

Doug

Actually the odds of a localized oil spill, or even a series of them, killing off all of the plankton in the oceans are basically nil, not very low.

Also I somehow doubt that "eco-terrorists" would unleash oil into the sea to pursue their agenda. That would be rather like the IRA exterminating all the Irish Catholics in the north to make their point, wouldn't it? Like Al Qaeda blowing up Mecca to strike at the Great Satan?

Could the oils destroys most of or kills off the plankton that makes most of the oxygen we breath?

That's actually a scary thought.
--
Tim

Ok you got me on the eco terrorist, and yea such a large scale attack would be impossible, but killing off a live form, we do it almost daily, who knows the next underarm spray for our pits, could have a side effect not tested for, planktoncide!

Doug

I…can't….breath….<thump>

and so it was written that the jellyfish inherited the Earth
link

Um… most of Earth's oxygen is there not because of what plankton and plants do NOW, but what their ancestors did from thousands to squillions of years ago.

I've seen figures that say the residence time of your typical oxygen molecule in the atmosphere is a few thousand years. I had some homework once that involved calculating how long the oxygen would last if all photosynthesis ceased at once. I'm sure the answer was I'd be long dead of something else well before I became short of breath.

If you game on Mars or somewhere like that, however, you could have oxygen pirates sneaking up to a geodesic dome and siphoning off the air!

Ok the jellyfish thing is very cool, which leads to the chance of finding other life forms on other planets with out oxygen is possible, mmmm intresting.

Doug

but killing off a live form, we do it almost daily,

Isn't killing off live forms something that happens when a computer crashes?

(I suspect you meant "a life form.")

I've seen figures that say the residence time of your typical oxygen molecule in the atmosphere is a few thousand years. I had some homework once that involved calculating how long the oxygen would last if all photosynthesis ceased at once. I'm sure the answer was I'd be long dead of something else well before I became short of breath.

IIRC I read that with almost every breath, we inhale a molecule of oxygen that enter and exited the lungs of Jules Cesar, and like two or three from Napoleon, and like a double handful from Hitler, so the oxygen would be around for awhile, but what would we do to proctect the next generation, for at some point the percentage of oxygen will drop to a point not able to sustain human life, then what?

Doug

Keep those dictator molecules away from my lungs! I've got this special filter that strains them out.

Gaming AND science lessons all on the same forum. Monkey…It's sounds like a cool idea, do it. Model them all with rebreathers. Or base a population that breath on a Hypoxic drive, like heavy smokers. Where CO "sticks" to hemoglobin instead of O2.

And to all the professors out there, You guys must be a hoot at social gatherings…

I'm a pulp gamer. I don't ruin a good gaming idea with inconvenient facts. I think you would have a turn limit that is rather short. Also, you could have a skirmish where one side has to get to the tanks and replenish their air while the other side tries to pick them off. You could have penalties on to-hit numbers for models that have gone beyond the turn limit. I think vehicles would look a little like the ones in Cadillac's and Dinosaurs. Also I think you could make large buildings with gas tanks on the roof as homes for several families. I assume people would live in groups of families in oxygen processing shelters. I would like to hear other ideas on this, and not a lot of personal sniping.

Didn't SeaQuest DSV deal with this topic? the plankton in the oceans had been pretty much killed off, so giant oxygen generators had been built on several contients…and there were 'engeneered humans' (with camo-type faces to identify them….super-soldiers?) who could live on 'less oxygen' percentage than the 21% regular humans were used to, so their leaders used laser sats to take out a couple of the plants…to start dropping the O2 to where only their folks could survive…(they were stopped in time, or it would have been a 'short series' for surface dwellers!)…but the Amazon rain forests and a lot of the other plant life that also generates O2 had also been wiped out (by 2018?) and so on…etc..and the UEO (United Earth Oceans) had colonies all over the ocean floors???

They ignored the concept that if the plankton went, so would most of the food chain in the ocean…although electrolosis could continue as long as there was water…(not oil slicks) to use…and fusion power, etc….

The thing about 'burning hydrogen and oxy is that it generates WATER…which can be re-electrolized over and over…as long as you have a power source to do so. So if you have fusion 'cracking plants' or solar farms…(like in the major deserts) providing energy/electricity to make water into oxygen for breating and hydrogen for fuel is a 'win-win' situation….

IF you want to talk about 'real science' vs 'space fantasy' or 'pulp' you can get as 'fuzzy' as you want….and come up with MULTIPLE catastrophies that just make the world as good/bad/warped as you want it…

Sorta like listening to quantum theoretical physicists trying to describe what a 'singularity' inside a black hole is….INFINATE MASS and GRAVITY taking up absolutely no 'space'…(pun not intented!)…Yet they exist…but we can't 'explain' them using current 'physics' as WE understand it…YET!

I'm not 'sniping'…just pointing out..that everyone might have a 'religous bovine'….that they don't want others messing with…(or 'probing'…), but when you look at some of the early John Campbell Jr. stuff, 'Black Star Passes' and 'Islands of Space', (it's sequel)…from the early 1930's with anti-matter, hyperdrive etc…and how it still mostly 'works' today…

I'm just saying….'If you build it, they will come'….Zombies and a lot of that stuff are not 'rational' creations…then we read today about 'artificial DNA/life' in the news…where goat germs started reproducing after they had their DNA replaced with 'manufactured' DNA created from bits in a lab?)…yes, there are folks 'panicing' about it even now…saying 'stop, till we make sure we aren't going 'too far!'…

In short…(not really, I'm Dances With Words)…if it sounds 'reasonably plausible', (unlike many of the SyFy made for tv movies, lets say)…and it's 'fun' then 'go for it'…..

Some folks think the WH40K universe is a bunch of 'hooey'….but that doesn't stop droves of people from playing it and spending more on it than several national budgets from third world countries buying books and minis for it?

Same for 'star trek' or other FTL/warp drive starship games or Napoleonics with all that Briccole and stuff…

IF you want 'oxygen wars'…there's a way to make it 'plausible' without a science degree! Same for anything else…

The point is…are you and your gaming group having fun and is it 'believeable' in your game setting…(considering what we're expected to 'suspend disbelief' on in the movie theaters and TV these days????)…

That's what I thought…

Have fun!
Slishfully,
Sgt DWW-btod

It's a very classic scifi premise – regardless of the actual hard science behind it. And would make a great story or novel. Less believable or practical as a movie, but would be an interesting setting for a post-apocalyptic rpg.

To reduce O2 to unlivable conditions in such a short term… would require releasing enough energy to vapourise all the oceans of the world.

The only vaguely SFnal way to do this would be to posit some kind of super-molecule that ties oxygen up into some stable form, perhaps with N2 involvement (something like red oxygen – O4, but that's a solid).

No oxygen would also mean we're out of power. No coal, no internal combustion, no aircraft. Only things like silane would burn.

Could the oils destroys most of or kills off the plankton that makes most of the oxygen we breath?

No.

This sort of thing occurs naturally, all the time, you know… Oil just isn't all that awful a substance. This mess in the Gulf isn't a good thing, but it takes a lot more than a little screw-up with a drill to destroy the world.
-Kle.

…it takes a lot more than a little screw-up with a drill to destroy the world.

I dunno – have you ever slipped while pinning a model and buried the bit in your thumb? Trust me, a little screw-up with a drill can really mess up your world. Heheh

The worst type of spill in the ocean would be of a cadmium super tanker.

Cadmium is one of the "uber" marine killers and I once remember reading in the 80's that as little as 100,000 tons of cadmium super-rich crude oil could theoretically kill off 98% of life in the worlds oceans, including plankton!

However I haven`t had anything to do with the oil business since the early 90`s and I`m not sure how the current theories stack up to the 80's ponderings?

AS

If you want the atmosphere to go away, then cool the earth's core. That's what happened to the atmosphere on Mars, or so the scientists theorize.

Maybe a child drops her ice cream cone down a deep core drill and the chilly cone sails straight down to the core, bearing that bit of cold just enough to set off a chain reaction ….

Humans are still functional at 16% O2. Very grumpy, since that level is enough to cause massive headaches.

Ok, let's get more technical: humans tolerate O2 partial pressures from about 220 millibars to 180 millibars without any major effects. Trying to do much of anything involving exertion below 180mb O2 will result in a hypoxia headache and/or blackout if it's serious exertion. Down to 160mb O2, you're sleepy all the time and have a splitting headache. It is possible to function at even lower partial pressures, but at the very extreme end it's 5 minutes between *steps* going up Everest (about 80mb O2, IIRC).

You'd have to not only wipe out all plankton in the oceans, you'd also have to start massive firestorms to suck out the existing atmospheric O2. By massive, I mean big enough to defoliate every land mass between 23*S and 23*N. Even then, it wouldn't be enough to do things quickly. There's a mind-boggling amount of O2 in the atmosphere.

Lets get less technical and discuss representing this in a game. Thats what the OP was about before the boffins took over.

Well I would think Rebels Minis, Titan marines would be a good start.
link

Doug

I recall reading a short story years ago about a family living under multiple tented layers of blankets. Unusual solar flares caused the sun to cool dramatically instantly freezing the atmosphere. Most living things died; however the families' dad was an amateur astrophysicist and predicated correctly the end of the world. Anyway they had to scoop the right layer of snow daily to melt oxygen in the tent, the world was a giant freezer and they were eventually discovered by scientists that had actually prepared and were living underground.

Throw in some ice zombies (because apparently every game has to have zombies these days) and I think you've got a very silly perfectly reasonable game.

"A Pail of Air" by Fritz Leiber, 1951.
And darn near the Traveller game based on it, as described by Marc Miller when he was playing through Adventure 4: Leviathan (which was written by the White Dwarf boys long before they had ever thought about warhammers).

Ok, sources for atmospheric O2: trees, photoalgae, and electrolysis. Electrolysis requires electricity and water. [looks at the dam a couple miles up the river]

Remember what I said about those partial pressures? Drop atmospheric O2 enough and all those people up in the mountains are gone. All the way down to about 8,000 feet (that's Albuquerque, New Mexico's elevation). Those of us closer to sea level are sucking wind trying to work.

Fast way to defeat an opponent is to attack his personal O2 concentrator (assuming we're talking modern tech), or air pack. One hit to either one and the troop is out of the combat (unless it's a sniper and not moving at all!).

To game it, I'd use the Rebel Minis Sahadeen on one side and the Marines on the other. I'd take out any armor save rules, too.

Lion in the Star,
I like the ideas you have going there, upper elevations being pretty much dead zones, thanks I'll have to do some more homework in those areas and see, what I can come up with, one idea would be haveing the troops with O2 concentrator as a main source, with a small back up canister of O2 for emergencies, just enough air to get to safty so to speak, which would make supply vehicles an important target too.

Doug