Help support TMP


"City of Crows Playtesters Needed" Topic


35 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Playtest Message Board


1,930 hits since 16 May 2010
©1994-2014 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Gailbraithe Inactive Member16 May 2010 1:03 p.m. PST

I'm looking to find a small group of people to help me playtest the game I am designing, City of Crows. It's a fantasy skirmish game in the style of Mordheim.

What I need are people who have a regular gaming group (or at least one person they play with regularly) who can run small battles with pre-selected forces to test various game concepts. An ability to write useful, informative after game reports is a must.

I can't pay playtesters anything, but all playtesters will get credit in the published rules as well as a free copy of the final rules assuming that happens. And, if I can swing it, some free miniatures as well. The rules are still in a very rough format right now, so input on readability and playability will be very useful.

If you're interested, either PM me here or send an email to adamsmk76(AT)gmail.com. If you are in the Puget Sound/Seattle area, then we might even be able to set up some games.

Personal logo cloudcaptain Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2010 1:59 p.m. PST

How are you coping with the "uber gang" situation that normally occurs in such systems?

Acharnement16 May 2010 3:40 p.m. PST

Mail sent! Since Mordheim has a lot of fan-created material available, I would be interested in finding out what differentiates it from that system. Anything skirmish is good for me, though!

SECURITY MINISTER CRITTER Inactive Member16 May 2010 9:03 p.m. PST

PM sent.

Gailbraithe Inactive Member16 May 2010 11:24 p.m. PST

How are you coping with the "uber gang" situation that normally occurs in such systems?

Can you define the "uber gang" situation?

Terrement Supporting Member of TMP17 May 2010 9:01 a.m. PST

E-mail sent. If you didn't want my assistance, you could have ignored the email. Or just said "No thanks", "No", or "Not ever from you!" Instead, graphic sexual rejection received in reply.

Have "fun" working with "Mr. Personality & Judgment." He's a real class act.

JJ

Gailbraithe Inactive Member17 May 2010 12:21 p.m. PST

Terrement, the reason I don't want your help is because you sent me an insulting, condscending email in which you presented yourself a godsend to gamers. Like you were doing me a favor. And true to form, you can't even take being rejected for this you have to post and whine on the internet.

I mean seriously, you posted this note AFTER you had sent me an email and I had responded to it. So you didn't post this to alert me that you'd sent an email -- my response, which you mention recieving, makes it clear I recieved the email, so you knew I didn't need an alert. You posted this so that everyone would know I told you to **** off. That is a whole new level of childishness.

Guess what everyone, when T here sent me an email telling me that if I could grow up and recognize his brilliance, he would deign to help me by playtesting my game. And as he as indicated, I told him exactly where he could stick it. And I stand by that choice, and would make it again.

What happens when I don't rewrite my game to suit your tastes? Do you turn around and blab to the internet about how I rejected your amazing, earth-shattering advice and thus my game will suck forever? That's the kind of help NO ONE needs, and after the recent demonstrations on these forums about how you deal with people who don't take your advice to heart, I think you'll find it hard to find ANYONE who wants to work with you.

Terrement Supporting Member of TMP17 May 2010 1:03 p.m. PST

"Terrement, the reason I don't want your help is because you sent me an insulting, condscending email in which you presented yourself a godsend to gamers. Like you were doing me a favor. And true to form, you can't even take being rejected for this you have to post and whine on the internet."

My email, which was copied to the editor is available to anyone who wants a copy, as will your reply. There is nothing insulting or condescending in it. I simply included a list of past experience at doing EXACTLY what you said you needed and was informing you of my experience.

"That is a whole new level of childishness."
Saying I Deleted by Moderator isn't childish? I'll grant you that you have every right to be as crass, abusive and childish as you choose to be. It does not mean that it is necessarily a good idea for you to do so.

"What happens when I don't rewrite my game to suit your tastes? Do you turn around and blab to the internet about how I rejected your amazing, earth-shattering advice and thus my game will suck forever?"

Not at all. You could have ASKED me before swearing at me if you wanted to know. Please feel free to contact ANY of the folks I've listed. I always start out with a statement (copy provided upon request) to the writer that basically says I'm providing input from where I see things. I may not understand the reason you've done something, or I may think there is a better way, or I may think that needs to be removed completely but it ultimately is your call. I take no "pride of authorship" in the comments, and just hope they'll be of some use. You can also ask if my comments were useful. Mexican Jack Squint specifically said (of me) he wouldn't want to see rules written by an engineer, but he'd make sure one looked at his drafts all of the time in the future. Sounds like a positive comment to me, but then I could be mistaken.

Davis Phelps doing "Pulp Alley" is the last TMP'er to whom I offered my assistance. Please go ahead and ask him if that isn't the case.

"I think you'll find it hard to find ANYONE who wants to work with you."

On the contrary. I'm involved with several, including folks who were fully aware of what was actually said and why in my dust up with Jones.

Perhaps if you asked first and shot later, or were a little more judicious in your actions you could have discovered this.

I hoped that you'd be like many others I encountered on the CA and later on the Fez. happy to fight the LW vs RW or whatever the two sides of the issues were, but in the "real world" the mask comes off and you would be a reasonable person. I know there are those who do not care for me on the Fez but like me and my comments just fine out here. venusboy3 is one. Ask him.

I obviously was mistaken in my judgment of you and you are far less mature and far more willing to shout accusations, mis-characterize actions on TMP that are here in B&W for anyone to read, and generally behave in a manner that is totally unbecoming.

So I've laid my cards on the table. You are lying about the tone of my email again which I'll happily provide to anyone who doubts my version to yours, as well as your thoughtful and carefully worded response and your follow-up email again demonstrating you gifted use of the English language. Which, IMHO demonstrates clearly a whole new level of childishness.

I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of in our communications. I'm not sure you can say the same thing.

have fun with your "game."

JJ

Gailbraithe Inactive Member17 May 2010 2:20 p.m. PST

The first line of JJ's email to me is, I kid you not, "If you're willing to cut the crap,…"

And JJ, it's not your politics that make me not want to work you. It's your personality.

Now stop turning my request for volunteers thread into yet another opportunity to stroke your much aggrieved, and apparently very fragile, ego.

Terrement Supporting Member of TMP17 May 2010 2:27 p.m. PST

"The first line of JJ's email to me is, I kid you not, "If you're willing to cut the crap,…""

Always easier to make your point by selectively providing information out of context.


Here it is in it's entirety just to put things in context:
"If you are ready to cut the crap, the sort of thing you are looking for is one of the things I do most in wargaming. You can see my bona fides in the threads where I was offering business advice to Jones, which, to this day, no one has disputed the value. Jones attack against me was that I had the temerity to suggest that he was not taking the best course of action for example insulting potential customers rather than just politely answering their questions.

A partial list of the contributions I've made are:
As for my background, it includes but is not limited to:

Active wargamer since the 60s

Member of the naval wargaming club at USNA

Active participation in naval wargames at the US Naval War College and US Naval Postgraduate School

Active participation in naval wargames throughout my 24 years active duty as a US Navy Surface Warfare Officer

Written articles that were published in MWAN when Hal Thinglum published it, Alarums and Excursions when Lee Gold published it, and both the US and UK version of The Lone Warrior a magazine for solo gamers

Veteran Playtester / rule reviewer / continuity checker whose involvement includes (some credited, some not) participation in, but again, not limited to the following:

Gladiators FGU
Ancient Warfare SAGA
Medieval Warfare SAGA
The Rules With No Name Bryan Ansell
Babylons Burning Hetzerdog

Various sets of rules with Howard Whitehouse, who has said of my contributions that he didn't think he'd want to play a game designed by an engineer, but that he'd probably never publish one again without having an engineer look at them first.

Beta tester for Slitherine Software

Active participant in a number of Yahoo Groups where the use of different rules sets are used, including Two Hour Wargames, MYTHIC RPG, TRWNN, and many others.


TMP link

Now, Jones could have easily found this out by asking as I invited everyone to do but he chose to act as he did instead.

The choice is now yours. My help is there if you want it. I clearly have the background for providing input.

But I don't know if you are so much like Jones that you would rather deal in conjecture and judgment without having the facts as you have in the BF, or, if you are willing to take my legitimate offer of assistance.

I also don't know if you are "Ken" as your profile states, or Adam as the email address you gave suggests.
adamsmk76(AT)gmail.com

LMK either way.

JJ"

The "cut the crap" reference connects to the Fez. I've found that many folks there and on the CA before talk heated politics, but can separate that from their gaming. Apparently he can't do so. The listing of my background previously posted on the TMP forums is only to show that I had the experience to do what he said he needed done. It doesn't mean that I think I'm God's gift to anything. It is a simple statement of fact. If he chooses to interpret it differently, I suggest that is his problem and not mine.

"Now stop turning my request for volunteers thread into yet another opportunity to stroke your much aggrieved, and apparently very fragile, ego."

I see nothing of the sort. You've mischaracterized my email folks can judge for themselves if it is as you've described it

"…an insulting, condscending email in which you presented yourself a godsend to gamers. Like you were doing me a favor."

"Guess what everyone, when T here sent me an email telling me that if I could grow up and recognize his brilliance, he would deign to help me by playtesting my game."

I don't see either of those there. Everyone else can draw their own conclusions.


Shall I post your measured and thoughtful reply?

"But I don't know if you are so much like Jones that you would rather deal in conjecture and judgment without having the facts as you have in the BF, or, if you are willing to take my legitimate offer of assistance."

Guess we've established the answer to that question pretty clearly.

"Now stop turning my request for volunteers thread into yet another opportunity to stroke your much aggrieved, and apparently very fragile, ego."

I also don't see that and the readers can judge for themselves. My ego has nothing to do with it. I don't care for the language or attitude you've shown. I'm not sure that it is ever appropriate to refer to someone else as Deleted by Moderator, but then again, you may be wiser in these matters than am I.

If you wanted me to stop commenting in your request thread, then I'd suggest posting a comment that was designed to provoke a reply wasn't the best way to go about doing it. Stir the pot and I'll respond. I kid you not.

JJ

Gailbraithe Inactive Member17 May 2010 3:34 p.m. PST

I also don't see that and the readers can judge for themselves. My ego has nothing to do with it.

Yes. Yes they can.

I don't care for the language or attitude you've shown. I'm not sure that it is ever appropriate to refer to someone else as someone who Deleted by Moderator, but then again, you may be wiser in these matters than am I.

I'm not surprised that you don't know this, since you only seem to pay attention to black culture in order to find things about it to Deleted by Moderator, but the word in question one of the most glorious and wondrous of words in any language -- does not actually have anything to do with incest, and certainly is not meant to imply that you have sexual relations with your mother. Rather it comes to us English by way of the western coast of Africa, and a bit of African-American slave folklore. Specifically the story of the Signifying Monkey.

In the best known story of The Signifying Monkey, Monkey sits in a tree insulting Lion, but telling him that he is only repeating what Elephant said. Specifically Monkey says that Elephant said that Lion was a you-know-what. Lion, upon hearing this, is so angry he confronts Elephant, who promptly pounds him into the dirt. Later Lion wises up and confronts Monkey angrily, but high in his tree Monkey just laughs, having made a fool of the King of the Jungle.

And that ladies and gentlemen is how that word, which implies that the subject has sexual relations with their own mother, entered the lexicon of the English language. It also helps explain why the word doesn't actually mean that the subject has relations with their mother, but rather that the subject is a false authority that is much weaker than it thinks it is; an authority that can be easily mislead and made powerless. When you call a person a you-know-what (and are using the word properly), you're associating them with the Lion in the story. It's still my favorite of the many contributions African-Americans have made to our culture.

If you wanted me to stop commenting in your request thread, then I'd suggest posting a comment that was designed to provoke a reply wasn't the best way to go about doing it. Stir the pot and I'll respond. I kid you not.

Right, this isn't about your ego at all, that's totally why you have to have the last word. Well go ahead JJ, since clearly you have to have the last word, you go ahead and take it. And we'll all know it wasn't because your ego is at stake, and has nothing to do with Deleted by Moderator, because mature, grown adults always have to have the last word and have to post their emails and have to raise a huge stink over being told they couldn't participate in a playtest.

So have your big grown-up, mature, egoless last word. I will go sit in my tree.

SBminisguy17 May 2010 6:17 p.m. PST

And that ladies and gentlemen is how that word, which implies that the subject has sexual relations with their own mother, entered the lexicon of the English language.

Not to quibble with your fine story, but this phrase really goes back to the Angles and the Saxons. The word and phrase in question is possibly 15 centuries old and has nothing to do with interesting folk tales from West Africa. And given that the Anglo-Saxons were a very direct people whose Germanic-based language was rather unsophisticated (you can bet that short pithy words with a simple meaning in the English language, like "Red", are old Anglo-Saxon, whereas more nuanced words like "Crimson" or "Scarlet" are from the French or Latin) the phrase means exactly how it sounds.

So, having addressed the only point of interest to me in this flame war, pray continue with your rules testing. Best of luck, Mordheim is a cool setting and a decent game. If you can improve upon the game and impart the dark fantasy setting, more power to ya!

Gailbraithe Inactive Member17 May 2010 7:08 p.m. PST

I suspect that a word for the concept has been developed independently in every culture, much like the word that implies one has feces for a head (fun fact: Bleeped texthead is on the very short list of words created independently by chimpanzees taught to sign, and the only insult).

However, the usage of the Bleeped text word in the modern American parlance, the usage that allows Neal Stephenson to write "Every man believed that, under the right circumstances, he could be the most Bleeped text In All Of Bleeped text" in Snow Crash and make sense, originates in the words usage amongst African-Americans, which connects back to the tale of the signifying monkey. Victorian prejudice against the vulgar German had largely suppressed it from the lexicon of white Americans.

I will gladly give those fine Saxon fellows credit for popularizing the single most glorious word in any language though, that one which gives the one we are discussing it's sting. Interestingly, the Bleeped text finds its root in old Germanic tongues and the word for striking, so in some sense the Bleeped text word could be seen as having a matricidal overtone. I'll leave it to the audience to decide which is worse.

If you can't tell, I kind of love profanity. It amuses me greatly that I can freely say rape, murder, and genocide without being bleeped, even though these concepts are truly terrible, but if I say I took a Bleeped text this morning…well, look at those bleeps. It gets even more ridiculous when you notice (like on TV) you can make endless jokes that require one to know the profanity in question, you can use any term to refer to the same act (watch: I took a dump this morning.) I get that the Victorians were aiming to go down in history as the prissiest prisses to ever priss about, but I have no idea why we continue to insist on adhering to their prejudice against the English langauge's Germanic origins.

BTW: Playtest is still open to everybody but Terrement. Everyone who has contacted me should expect an email soon. I promise no one else will be described as Deleted by Moderator. :)

SBminisguy17 May 2010 8:18 p.m. PST

(fun fact: Bleeped texthead is on the very short list of words created independently by chimpanzees taught to sign, and the only insult).

LOL! And IIRC Koko and Michael use sign to express insults, and Koko even created her own expression which equates to Bleeped text – she places one finger on her lower eye lid and pulls the lower eye lid down while looking at the person she's insulting.

Boo Hoo Inactive Member19 May 2010 8:42 a.m. PST

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA]

Note to file, JJ – it's always, always very bad form to bring up personal email in a public forum. It's why it's a DH offense to bring up PMs on the boards and it's also (along with cc ing everyone who really is not involved), dare I say it, the sort of thing standard garden-variety net loons have done since the internet began.

Good heavens.
--
Tim

Sane Max20 May 2010 4:45 a.m. PST

What wondrous human beings.

Pat

Captain Apathy Inactive Member21 May 2010 8:55 p.m. PST

uh… what just happened?

Gatecrasher Inactive Member22 May 2010 11:23 p.m. PST

Hi, this Gailbraithe.

I created this account because my regular account is in the Dawghouse.

I fully expect to be banned for creating multiple accounts or something to that effect, but I thought people should know that you can be dawghoused for things Bill edits your posts to make them say. Because if you look at my Gailbraithe account and see what I've been dawghoused for, it's worth noting that I never wrote what Bill claims I said and was in complete compliance with the profanity rules as stated.

I've given Bill multiple opportunities to address this, to offer an explanation for his behavior, and to date I have only received one response from him in which he mocked me for thinking it was unfair that I was suspended for words he put in my post. Thus I have to assume that his motivation is something base, like a desire to defend Terrement from his own foolishness, or a general dislike of my politics.

Given that Bill is clearly willing to abuse his power, I am quite certain he will ban me from this site for daring to challenge his authority and making his abuse public. But heh, what can I say but sic semper tyrannis.

Sane Max23 May 2010 10:32 a.m. PST

"Thus always to Tyrants"

What is the "thus"? How are you planning to punish Bill? It's a poor choice of motto, given that you are utterly powerless against him.

Pat

Gatecrasher Inactive Member23 May 2010 12:43 p.m. PST

I'm not entirely powerless. I can do as I have done here, and make Bill's abuse of power public knowledge. I can also, as I have told him, refuse to advertise with him when my miniatures line launches in a month or so.

But I think that focusing on my poor latin is really missing the point. I think it should be far more troubling to user of these forums and this site that its owner, who has managed to position himself as a gatekeeper to the industry, is apparently more than willing to abuse his power and censor people for having the wrong politics or for not tolerating abuse from his friends, such as Terrement.

I'm getting ready to launch a game. I have money going out the door, stuff in production, and have every intent of selling this game. It greatly, greatly disturbs me that the primary means I have of reaching an audience for that game is a man who is willing to engage in such ridiculously petty abuses of power, and I'm more than a little bit concerned about how I would be treated as an advertiser.

Given that Bill is willing to engage in tomfoolery like suspending my account over words he edited into my posts, why in the world would I trust him to not take my money for advertising and pocket it, giving me nothing in return? Its not like anyone who advertises here can really prove that their ads are being shown as often as Bill claims. That has to be taken on faith, and what possible reason would I have to assume honesty and fair dealings with a man who has been neither honest or fair with me?

Sane Max23 May 2010 2:57 p.m. PST

Bill has never denied being a capitalist and, in his own way, the tyrannical ruler of this place. Don't advertise with him. If his behaviour upsets a large enough portion of the small businessmen that make up the Wargames industry, he is gone.

I don't expect to see him start sweating anyday soon.

Pat

Gatecrasher Inactive Member23 May 2010 3:36 p.m. PST

That's cold comfort to this small businessman. Because if his behavior only upsets me then what redress do I have? It seems I'm stuck in a position of letting a petty little wanna-be tyrant push me around and take advantage of me, or doing real damage to my fledgling business by not advertising on this site.

I'm trying to keep my anger in check, but frankly this whole affair has left me sick to my stomach.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian24 May 2010 8:55 a.m. PST

…I thought people should know that you can be dawghoused for things Bill edits your posts to make them say. Because if you look at my Gailbraithe account and see what I've been dawghoused for, it's worth noting that I never wrote what Bill claims I said and was in complete compliance with the profanity rules as stated.

Excuse me? I've never edited your posts.

I've given Bill multiple opportunities to address this, to offer an explanation for his behavior, and to date I have only received one response from him…

Did it occur to you I might be busy, and haven't read your PM or email yet?

…in which he mocked me for thinking it was unfair that I was suspended for words he put in my post.

Why would I mock you?

Thus I have to assume that his motivation is something base, like a desire to defend Terrement from his own foolishness, or a general dislike of my politics.

I've never met Terrement, he's just like any other member of TMP to me, and I don't feel any need to 'defend' him. As for your politics, that's on the Fez, not here.

kyoteblue Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2010 5:32 p.m. PST

Could we all just get along with each other???

Pyrate Captain24 May 2010 7:38 p.m. PST

WOW! Will this reach 155 posts?

Personal logo Klebert L Hall Supporting Member of TMP25 May 2010 4:39 a.m. PST

Okay, that's just hilarious.
Perhaps cutting back on the caffeine is a worthwhile idea?
-Kle.

flicking wargamer25 May 2010 4:46 a.m. PST

The entertainment this thread alone is giving me is worth the supporting membership. What a bargain!

Boo Hoo Inactive Member25 May 2010 8:10 a.m. PST

I would say Terrement commited a doghouseable offence – he brought up personal email, which is similar to, though not exactly the same as, making PMs public.
--
Tim

Personal logo Doctor X Supporting Member of TMP25 May 2010 2:00 p.m. PST

I wish I had time to read this whole thing.

We need someone to summarize every 50 posts or so for thoise of us without time to wade through everything yet still wish to follow for entertainment value…

Andrew May125 May 2010 4:41 p.m. PST

Ok, to summarise:

Dude writes rules and wants playtesters.
Other Dude offers to help but is rejected by Dude.
Dude and Other Dude both have a hissy fit.
Dude ends up in slammer.
However, Dude is either a master of disguise or has multiple personalities as he reappears with a slightly different moniker and blames his woes on Bigger Dude.
Bigger Dude chucks him in the slammer again.

The rest of TMP watch the car crash unfold in slow motion and have their picnic chairs stationed by the side of the road…

Goldwyrm Inactive Member25 May 2010 8:40 p.m. PST

I would say Terrement commited a doghouseable offence he brought up personal email, which is similar to, though not exactly the same as, making PMs public.
--
Tim

Gray area. It's a discussion of playtester and "company" interaction. It's not unlike a customer vs. company interaction where email communications are discussed on the Consumer Affairs board. If there was a NDA, then I'd agree with you in principle.

Gwartizan Inactive Member26 May 2010 8:49 a.m. PST

I see there are a line of miniatures in production for this game, any idea when the will be ready?

Space Monkey26 May 2010 5:33 p.m. PST

defend Terrement from his own foolishness
Hah! That's like a tiger needing to hire a guard dog… Terrement is damn well capable of defending himself.

Does someone make a miniature of that monkey?

Gailbraithe Inactive Member20 Jun 2010 4:05 p.m. PST

"I see there are a line of miniatures in production for this game, any idea when the will be ready?"

Should be about a month and half from now. Sculptor is almost done, then they go to the caster, and depending on his schedule they should be ready to go very soon after that.

Terrement Supporting Member of TMP18 Oct 2010 2:04 p.m. PST

"I see there are a line of miniatures in production for this game, any idea when the will be ready?"

Should be about a month and half from now. Sculptor is almost done, then they go to the caster, and depending on his schedule they should be ready to go very soon after that.

any news on these?

JJ

Sorry - only trusted members can post on the forums.