"A Question about Landsknechts" Topic
15 Posts
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Theodosius | 15 Apr 2010 8:26 p.m. PST |
I know that Landsknecht Doppelsoldners armed with two handed swords often went ahead of the main pike block to disrupt the enemy. I think they also acted as file leaders. My question is, did they fight within the same formation as the pikemen? In wargaming terms, would it be correct to base a couple of rows of pikemen with Dopplesoldners in the front row, ie within the hedge of pikes? Thanks for any light you can shed on this, Alan. |
tjantzen | 16 Apr 2010 3:49 a.m. PST |
The doppelsoldners main battle role was to get inside the reach of the enemy pike block in order to disrupt them. A quite daring (and suicidal) venture for which they also received double pay, hence the name
By disrupting the enemy pike block, their own pikes could then more easily break the enemy pike blocks open. So formation wise they are closely associated with the pike blocks. But how you base them also depends upon your wargames rule of choice. In some rules they operate independently and are fielded like independent Forlorne Hope units while in other they are included in the fighting abilities of the pikes. regards Thomas |
IGWARG1 | 16 Apr 2010 7:45 a.m. PST |
They would not attack pike blocks head on, but tried to flank them and prevent enemy swordsmen doing the same. Hand gunners would try to disrupt enemy formation from the front. Another role was to be in the middle of the pike block and protect the flags or prevent enemy soldiers penetrating to deep after many pikes would be broken. |
Condottiere | 16 Apr 2010 8:14 a.m. PST |
Period diagrams show the field square depoyed with alternating blocks of pikemen and halberdiers/swordsmen arrayed one behind the other, starting with the pikemen in front. I imagine that the functions varied greatly, not just limited to running ahead of the pike formation to do a kamikazi style attack on opposing pike. Once the pikes were engaged, men armed with halberds and two-handed swords maight move out of the formation to attempt a flank attack. They may be used to bolster the pike in front, or prevent a break through, etc. There is much debate on this, and the answers don't seem very clear, but their role seems to be more than just the running out in front, as suggested above. The proportions of pike to halberds/two-handed swordsmen varied greatly I'm sure, as did the origanization and strength of landsknecht regiments, but Renaissance France at War by Potter, provides an example of a particular landsknect regiment (can't recall which one) containing: 6,000 pikemen, 2,000 halberdiers, 800 two-handed swordsmen, and 2,000 arquebusiers. I'm sure Rich Knapton will be along soon to "set the record straight." |
Stuart MM | 16 Apr 2010 8:45 a.m. PST |
For a base of 8 I usually have a swordsman / halberdier, standard bearer, commander and 5 pike. Sometimes I increase the halberd proportions for a bit of variety. |
Daffy Doug | 16 Apr 2010 9:46 a.m. PST |
In The Art of War such mixed units are assumed rather than modeled. It is up to the player to base the proportion of figures he finds most pleasing to the eye. Stuart's approach is a good one for our rules as well
. 1066.us |
SECURITY MINISTER CRITTER | 16 Apr 2010 10:46 a.m. PST |
I will put one or two with the pike myself. |
Rich Knapton | 16 Apr 2010 1:40 p.m. PST |
"Here he comes to save the day: mighty rich! First off it is highly doubtful that two-handed swords or halberds could be used integrated with pikes. They need more room in which to swing their weapons. This would disrupt the pike formation. I've read where they attacked pikes in the flanks. They also accompanied shot to drive out enemy shot from entrenched battlefield positions. At Biccoca, the double-pay men were brought up from the rear to help tear-down the Imperial battlefield defenses. The idea of double-pay men was to have certain troops available for unique jobs that needed to be done on the battlefield. They were also used as shock troops in sieges. At the battle of Ravenna, the Spanish rodeleros (sword and buckler men) had been stationed at the rear of the Spanish pike blocks. When the German and French pikes assaulted over the ditch and berm, the rodeleros came around from the rear and attack the enemy pikes. What I believe happened was the German and French pikes became disrupted assaulting the berm and ditch. The rodeleros took advantage of this disruption to get under the pikes and wreak havoc among the enemy pikes. The rodeleros were equivalent to the German double-pay men. At both Biccoca and Ravenna the double-pay men were positioned behind the pikes ready to be called forward when needed. My preferred way of depicting double-pay men is as supporting sub units ala Gush's rules. Rich |
Theodosius | 16 Apr 2010 3:42 p.m. PST |
Thanks gentlemen, this is all very helpful. Rich – I agree that it is hard to imagine men wielding two-handers within their own formation of pikes. What has confused me a little is the drawing of the 'Schweizerschlacht' by Hans Holbein on p. 30 of the Osprey MAA Landsknecht book. This seems to show a veritable free for all, with halberds, pikes and two-handers all being used together. Artistic license? Cheers, Alan. |
Condottiere | 16 Apr 2010 4:22 p.m. PST |
Hey, Rich finally got one right! Pretty much what I related above about separate "blocks" of pikes and halberdiers/two-handed swordsmen. My preferred way of depicting double-pay men is as supporting sub units ala Gush's rules. That's the way I will be basing my new Artizan landsknechts. |
huevans | 16 Apr 2010 7:43 p.m. PST |
In another recent thread on the topic, Daniel S posted a link about double-handed sword fighting which suggested that there realy wasn't a lot of free swinging. Rather, there was a lot of close in fighting using the sword as a lever and also precisely stabbing with it. |
Daniel S | 16 Apr 2010 11:52 p.m. PST |
The Doppelsöldner The use of the Zweihander by the Doppelsöldner have been greatly exaggerated in modern times, a rests in 19th Centuiryy interpretations with very limited if any support in the period sources. If you look at the written 16th Century sources the Doppelsöldner seems to have been first and foremost an armoured pikeman. For example the "Trewer Rath und Bedencken eines Alten wol versuchten und Erfahrenen Kriegsmans", a text written in the 1520's by an annonymous author who may have been Georg von Frundsberg (himself) states:
"
the Doppel-sölder, that is the armoured pike
" The Trewer Rath includes an example of a 21 ranks deep formation: (Each rank is 13 files wide) 1-4th rank: "Doppelsöldner" 5th rank: halberdiers 6-7th rank: "Mittelsöldner" 8-10th rank: "gemeinen söldner" 11-13th rank: "Führern, Furirern, Waybeln und Schlachtschwerter" together with the two ensigns 14-18th rank: "gemeiner söldner" 19th rank: "knebelspeiss" 20-21st rank: Doppelsöldner The Hauptmann stod in the middle of the 1st rank while the Leutnant stod in the last rank. On each side of the men with pikes, halberds and other melee weapons stod 23 ranks of men with firearms, each rank was 5 files wide. The first 4 ranks were made up of "doppel-schützen" i.e a part of the shot was on double pay as well. By the time the scribe of Daniel Rantzau was writing a war diary of the campaign of 1567-1568 the word "doppelsöldner" had become another name for an armoured pikeman. The landsknechts in Danish service having doppelsöldner, men with "short weapons" (i.e halberds) and men with firearms. It seem that the unarmored or lightly armoured "mittelsöldner" & "gemein söldner" pikemen had been converted to arquebusiers who were far more usefull in the broken Swedish terrain. Only the experienced and wel larmoured doppelsöldner retained the pike. The regulations for the Imperial troops laid down in 1570 envsioned the following organisation Each 400 man "fähnlein" of Landsknechts were to have 100 "fully harnessed" pikemen armed with pistols, 50 of whom were to be doppelsöldner, 50 men with two-handed swords or other good polearms such as halberds also armed with pistols ("Good and experienced men to guard the standard") 50 unarmoured pikemen and 200 shot with firearm, good 'rapiers' and helmets. The only doppelsöldner were the 50 picked pikemen. Wintzenberger's manual describes a Fähnlein of 300 men: 82 doppelsöldner with harness and pikes, 14 doppelsöldner with harness and "schlachtschwert", 18 halberdiers, 42 musketeers and 144 arquebusiers. The Schlachtschwert The two handed "Schlachtschwert" was most commonly the weapon of bodyguards (the Trabants), nco's and officers. There are a few examples of it being used instead of halbereds as a polearm but the evidence for this not as reliable as I would like it to be. If when look at a period fighting manual like DiGrassi the author values the "schlachtschwert" for it's ability to face multiple enemies at the same time which makes it usefull for defending the Ensign:
"The two hand Sword, as it is used now a days being four handfuls in the handle, or more, having also the great cross, was found out, to the end it should be handled one to one at an equal match, as other weapons, of which I have entreated. But because one may with it (as a galleon among many galleys) resist many Swords, or other weapons: Therefore in the wars, it is used to be place near unto the Ensign or Ancient, for the defense thereof, because, being of itself able to contend with many, it may the better safeguard the same. And it is accustomed to be carried in the City, aswell by night as by day, when it so chances that a few are constrained to withstand a great many. And because his weight and bigness, requires great strength, therefore those only are allotted to the handling thereof, which are mighty and big to behold, great and strong in body, of stout and valiant courage. Many of the period images which supposedly show Doppelsöldner in fact show something else when you look at the original title/description. The Swiss habit of using longswords (aka "hand and a half" swords)rather than the short katzbalger also contributes to the confusion. |
Theodosius | 17 Apr 2010 3:45 a.m. PST |
Daniel, Many thanks, this is excellent. The fact that armoured pikemen were Doppelsoeldner clears up my confusion. It didn't make sense to me that Doppesoeldner (if they were always armed with swords and halberds) were supposed to make up the front ranks of the pike formation. Now it makes sense. Cheers, Alan. |
Rich Knapton | 18 Apr 2010 2:41 p.m. PST |
There are a few examples of it being used instead of halbereds as a polearm but the evidence for this not as reliable as I would like it to be. I had to laugh with this Daniel. One could say this about almost anything during this time period. Daniel is correct in stating double-pay men also manned the front ranks. I was addressing the question of double-pay men using the two-handed swords (and by extension also the halberd) There seems to be a geographic specialization of weapons. Upper Rhine landsknechts tended towards the halberds. Lower Rhine (Flanders, Gelderland) landsknechts tended to use the two handed-swords. This was not an exclusive specialization. During the Italian Wars, the French had been hiring Imperial landsknechts (upper Rhine) when Maximilian decreed that Imperial landsknechts could not be hired by the French. At this point France turned to the lower Rhine to enlist landsknechts. This relationship between the French and the lower Rhine landsknechts continued with the French wars of religion. Around 1570 landsknechts are depicted in French military art using two-handed swords. None are depicted with halberds. Rich |
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