Duck Crusader | 14 Apr 2010 8:04 p.m. PST |
Just what it says. DIscussion? |
John the OFM | 14 Apr 2010 8:20 p.m. PST |
Whether he did or not, how in the name of all that is holy is it relevant to any discussion on TMP? If he did, that's nice. If he did not, well, that's nice too. If he did not, his estate should give back all the money he made on the patent, with interest. This only matters to a sneering cabal of argumentative loonies*. It certainly has no bearing on playing miniature wargames with toy Napoleonic soldiers. NEWS FLASH!!! Robert Fulton did not invent the steamship! Henry Ford did not invent the automobile! Henry Ford did not invent the assembly line! Colonel Sanders did not invent fried chicken! The world goes on
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John the OFM | 14 Apr 2010 8:21 p.m. PST |
*Not you, Duck Crusder. I think I know what you are doing, and I applaud it. |
Mulopwepaul | 14 Apr 2010 8:25 p.m. PST |
The grenade rolled lazily across the room, fuse sputtering audibly as all stared in disbelief, mouths agape
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Steven H Smith | 14 Apr 2010 8:33 p.m. PST |
Forward by bricole, Austrian artillery at Essling 1809: link |
Steven H Smith | 14 Apr 2010 8:38 p.m. PST |
Well, there is no need to have a discussion about who invented the bricole as far as the period is concerned. It was already in existance. I have a bricole question that I can not as yet answer. All of the drawings show a dual use bricole – one that can easily be made shorter or longer. However all of the French artillery manuals of the period list two separate types of bricole – long and short – being in the caissons. Perhaps the dual use bricole was a 'good' idea but not practical? Big Al |
Steven H Smith | 14 Apr 2010 8:40 p.m. PST |
From Chuey on another TMP topic: Exactly when were they used ? Sub-questions
. -- In combat, not in combat ? -- Advancing, retiring ? -- Did this vary by nation or by years/eras ? |
Jovian1 | 14 Apr 2010 8:45 p.m. PST |
I invented the bricole back in 1758. Gribeauval is nothing more than a IP infringing . . . who cares – really. Is it that important an invention? Bricole was around in the 1700's when guns were pulled ahead by infantry and the artillerists to close with the enemy. It was nothing new in Napoleon's time either. Perhaps a better use of it, but it wasn't new. |
Steven H Smith | 14 Apr 2010 8:51 p.m. PST |
French ‘dual use bricoles': Earliest illustration I have: link A later design: link
Austrian bricoles in use (pre-1809):
link A Prussian bricole:
link Prussian bricoles in use:
link |
Extra Crispy | 14 Apr 2010 9:07 p.m. PST |
Just so we're clear here. A bricole is a piece of rope/leather in the shape of a loop? So somebody tried to patent a rope to pull a cannon with by giving it a fancy name? And we thought GW were bad
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Steven H Smith | 14 Apr 2010 9:23 p.m. PST |
Movement of a 12lber by bricole: link Instruction sur le service de l'artillerie
by Jean Baptiste Hulot & Bigot. 1813:
Chap. III. Exercice des pièces de bataille: Manœuvre: - de la pièce de 4, p. 75; - de la pièce de 6, p. 83; - des pièces de 8 et de 12, p 83; - de l'obusier de 6 pouces, p. 92. - à la prolonge, p. 92. link |
Steven H Smith | 14 Apr 2010 9:45 p.m. PST |
A bizzar use of the bricole – "trainèe à la bricole". No need for artillery horses on the battlefield – move the guns on the battlefield by manpower only!: link |
Gungnir | 14 Apr 2010 10:05 p.m. PST |
Bricoles have been in use for centuries in the Netherlands to pull boats along canals, a practice still used far into the 20th Century. A now departed friend told me how he towed potato barges by means of bricole, horses were far more expensive than family members. So, obviously the bricole was a Dutch invention, later borrowed by the military and/or stolen by furrun military. |
Whatisitgood4atwork | 14 Apr 2010 10:31 p.m. PST |
Before allegedly inventing the aeroplane, the Wright brothers ran a sucessful bricole repair business in Ohio. I have two; a mountain bricole, and a road bricole. |
Norman D Landings | 14 Apr 2010 10:34 p.m. PST |
Potato barges!? What's wrong with wooden ones like everybody else uses? |
JJS001 | 14 Apr 2010 10:42 p.m. PST |
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Gungnir | 15 Apr 2010 1:45 a.m. PST |
Norm, the wooden ones take much longer to grow. |
(religious bigot) | 15 Apr 2010 1:50 a.m. PST |
the children were sorely tempted, as it was a short cut after all and it was growing dark, but Mummy and Daddy had been very clear about where they should cross the river when visiting Grandma
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Maxshadow | 15 Apr 2010 1:58 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the potato barge image. |
Old Bear | 15 Apr 2010 2:55 a.m. PST |
And so the 'academics' are so easily flushed into the open, some simply unable to resist the urge to display their academia to all and sundry. |
Connard Sage | 15 Apr 2010 2:56 a.m. PST |
What's a bricole? It's a small loaf. Marie Antoinette famously said "Qu'ils mangent de la bricole." on her way to the guillotine. Her husband, Louis XIV (or some such impossibly high regnal number, why didn't the French show more imagination naming their monarchs, why does it always have to be Louis?), merely uttered "merde". M. Gribeauval was not consulted because he was dead. So, there we have it. |
Slappy | 15 Apr 2010 3:12 a.m. PST |
so what colour should I paint them? :)was there a secret Bricole regiment, that were planning to usurp the horses of various armies? |
Connard Sage | 15 Apr 2010 3:20 a.m. PST |
so what colour should I paint them? :)was there a secret Bricole regiment, that were planning to usurp the horses of various armies? Dear Slappy If you would care to pre-order my forthcoming book 'Bricoles of the Third Reich' (Vanity Press £176.87), the result of many years of study in various foreign archives, all written in languages that you can't read and I can, which proves that I'm considerably cleverer than yow, and quite a few months of invention also, you will find all the information you require in chapter 57. The tome is fully illustrated, meticulously researched using many Ospreys and secondary sources, and unlike this post, contains no run on sentences. Well. A few. Don't worry if you can't remember where you read this, because I shall be posting about my forthcoming book 'Bricoles of the Third Reich', on every board at every opportunity so that no-one can miss it. Even if they try. Sincerely Connard |
Patrick R | 15 Apr 2010 3:47 a.m. PST |
Bricole nom féminin : Besogne insignifiante, menu travail : Il fait quelques bricoles dans un garage. Chose sans importance, sans valeur : Il m'a fait cadeau d'une bricole. # Populaire. Ennui grave : Il va lui arriver des bricoles. |
nsolomon99 | 15 Apr 2010 4:21 a.m. PST |
Actually
to be truthful about it
they first appear during the War of Jenkins Ear. They were used to tow the special squadron guns of the Bavarian Kettle Drummers Regiment
yes, thats right a whole regiment composed of Kettle Drummers
yes, and supported by squadron guns moved by Bricole. They evolved from there but the best looking ones are the modern replica Waffen SS ones that look particularly fetching in the spotted camo treatment. Some guy in Greenland sells them via ads in Popular Mechanics. |
Allan Mountford | 15 Apr 2010 4:40 a.m. PST |
Give Steve a chance ;-) Establishing earliest military use strikes me as the most sensible way to approach the question. I don't doubt there are examples of field pieces being pulled by bricole-type technolgy from way back. Question is: who used it first? - Allan |
McKinstry | 15 Apr 2010 7:05 a.m. PST |
Bricoles of the Third Reich I look forward to snidely commenting on your scholarship using obscure fourth world references written in dead pictograph based languages. ( I have always thought your translations of Summerian cuniform tablets was highly suspect. ) |
Company D Miniatures | 15 Apr 2010 7:22 a.m. PST |
Just bought a bag of Barbecue bricoles for the summer |
aecurtis | 15 Apr 2010 7:59 a.m. PST |
"Dear Slappy If you would care to pre-order my forthcoming book 'Bricoles of the Third Reich' (Vanity Press £176.87), the result of many years of study in various foreign archives, all written in languages that you can't read and I can, which proves that I'm considerably cleverer than yow, and quite a few months of invention also, you will find all the information you require in chapter 57. The tome is fully illustrated, meticulously researched using many Ospreys and secondary sources, and unlike this post, contains no run on sentences. Well. A few. Don't worry if you can't remember where you read this, because I shall be posting about my forthcoming book 'Bricoles of the Third Reich', on every board at every opportunity so that no-one can miss it. Even if they try. Sincerely Connard" A clever parody, but far too lucid. Allen |
Connard Sage | 15 Apr 2010 8:00 a.m. PST |
( I have always thought your translations of Summerian cuniform tablets was highly suspect. ) I demand you retract that statement. I'm extremely well-versed in Sumerian cuneiform. I've read a book on the subject, and mummy let me colour the pictures in with my finger paints. A clever parody, but far too lucid. I've been accused of many things, but never of lucidity. I'm quite emotional. |
Norman D Landings | 15 Apr 2010 8:14 a.m. PST |
"'orses? 'ORSES, tha sez?! Pool it yersels, yer greet soft Boogers!" "Sure, an' oi'd say yer man has somethin' dere
" (an extract from the upcoming blockbuster: "Sharpe's Bricole".) |
Shagnasty | 15 Apr 2010 8:19 a.m. PST |
For the children's sake, stop this madness! |
Deadmen tell lies | 15 Apr 2010 9:13 a.m. PST |
Well I guess Arteis proved his point hands down. Regards James |
Graf Bretlach | 15 Apr 2010 9:35 a.m. PST |
I think the answer to the OP is NO, BUT he may have been responsible for introducing it to the French after the 7YW. My impressions of the French artillery before 1763 are not very good, I think de Gribeauval got the French artillery at least up to evryone elses standard, between 1763 & the revolution, there use of regimental guns seemed poor, they were late introducing howitzers, Gribeauval MAY have designed the horseless artillery, but this doeasn't seem to have been taken up, no surprises there! So the question is who was first introdcing it? (the proper leather straps and metal fittings as opposed to a bit of old rope)was it Fuerstein/Lichtenstein with their system of 1753 or the Prussians? both big users of regimental canon.
sorry for the non funny post, but someone needs to.. or Steve may stop posting all those useful pictures. |
John the OFM | 15 Apr 2010 9:38 a.m. PST |
I have Hinchliffe SYW artillerists wearing a bricole, and that is all the proof I need. Besides, if Gribeauval had invented them, the would be called "gribeauvals" instead of "bricloles", hainna? |
50 Dylan CDs and an Icepick | 15 Apr 2010 9:49 a.m. PST |
[I demand you retract that statement. I'm extremely well-versed in Sumerian cuneiform.] I actually work with a guy who is. He's a recognized expert on Sumerian history (or "pre-history," I guess), and for a couple of years he even persuaded the administration to let him teach Cuneiform as a "foreign language" to a handful of extraordinarily baffled students whose parents hadn't yet discovered that they'd dropped their Business majors. |
von Winterfeldt | 15 Apr 2010 12:20 p.m. PST |
Prussian gun crew of about 1760, I am quite sure they did not call it bricole, but two soldiers at least seemingly used ropes like that. picture |
Jovian1 | 15 Apr 2010 12:30 p.m. PST |
Establishing earliest military use strikes me as the most sensible way to approach the question. I don't doubt there are examples of field pieces being pulled by bricole-type technolgy from way back. Question is: who used it first? You might as well ask who first used the wheel – I'm sure you will be about as successful as documenting that as you would the bricole. |
sergeis | 15 Apr 2010 2:18 p.m. PST |
Ahh- all wrong here!!! Bricole is a wrong word- it was actually invented in Russia ( everything was invented in Russia). The correct name is Пердячий пар- Fart Power- as in Moving guns with Fart Power!!! Yep, that's right!!! |
Steven H Smith | 15 Apr 2010 2:38 p.m. PST |
Sergeis, Absolutely. It was the Vulgar boatmen. Eŝë razik, eŝë da raz! More later. <;^} Yours, in firm research, Big Al |
sergeis | 15 Apr 2010 2:49 p.m. PST |
Well, they were vulgar- I am sure, but they were VOLGA boatmen as in river Volga:-) Correct name is BOURLAK! picture Look at all the bricole- or is it bricolais? |
Graf Bretlach | 15 Apr 2010 3:54 p.m. PST |
Yeah but they are French captured in 1812 (plus one zombie)along with their bricoles |
Duck Crusader | 15 Apr 2010 7:17 p.m. PST |
WRONG! They are all zombies except the catamite. Continue.>;^)> |
John the OFM | 15 Apr 2010 8:12 p.m. PST |
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sergeis | 15 Apr 2010 8:19 p.m. PST |
I like the smell of thread derailment in the evening!!! Ey uhnem!!! |
Duck Crusader | 15 Apr 2010 9:30 p.m. PST |
None the less, scattered amongst all the snark in here is information about what bricoles were, how they were used, illustrations of them in action, and a fairly concise refutation of the initial premise, if you merely look a bit. So novice actually interested/in need of information WOULD have had all of it he needs, at least for a starting point, provided. The humor (or attempts thereof at least) is gratis. Deep breaths. Anyone need a paper bag yet? No? Then we may continue. Is there a market for bricoles nowadays? |
Connard Sage | 16 Apr 2010 12:09 a.m. PST |
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von Winterfeldt | 16 Apr 2010 2:07 a.m. PST |
More illustrations from the Prussian Army you see they are moving their guns somehow with different tools, amongst else – ropes, I am positive, they didn't call it bricole. picture picture |
Supercilius Maximus | 16 Apr 2010 2:43 a.m. PST |
<<For the children's sake, stop this madness!>> Hopefully, women really are the more intelligent gender and have allowed none of the above to actually breed. |
von Winterfeldt | 16 Apr 2010 2:53 a.m. PST |
They called it Avancierriemen, here some more inforamtion from Malinowski and Bonin picture |