"Battle of Reichshoffen, August 1870 at Hotlead" Topic

A large 25mm Franco-Prussian War battle using the Carnage and Glory computer-moderated rules.

A Bavarian Brigade unexpectedly encounters an imposing French position and is reinforced by a Prussian Division that marches to the sound of the guns.

Hosted by Mike Martin and Gary Schofield at the recent Hotlead wargaming convention. I think the figures are mainly (all?) Wargames Foundry 25mm ones.

The computer rules, run on a netbook, calculated all unit casualties to a man and gave the results, like being forced to retire due to enemy fire, that were measured and moved by the players. The unit and commander ID numbers to track the units can be seen in some of the photos.

Despite some success on the flanks, the Prusso-Bavarians were repulsed after suffering IIRC about 20% casualties overall including several generals wounded and mortally wounded.

link

Great pics. The figs and table were really well done! How long did the game last? Any idea how much players liked the rules?

Thanks,

John

Lovely pictures, nice looking little game and it looks like some right nutters were in charge of the Cavalry! I am interested in C & G, curious to know how it would cope with a multi Corps Battle in 28mm, with figures organised and based for They Died for Glory.

Tally Ho!

I like it. (And i wish i had an 1870th army too.)

nickinsomerset,
We regularly host multi-corps Napoleonic games in 28 mm at the big conventions, here in the States, and we've also done Antietam and First Bull Run using 28's – there would be little or no difference between those games and running a Franco-Prussian period multi-corps sized game. The main difference would be in weaponry ranges, and deployment areas tended to be greater in this period, and the larger multi-corps scale battles might be better served by using 15 mm [or smaller – my FPW's are actually 6 mm]. The 28's might be better suited to division or reinforced division games. But bottom line, it's all a matter of how big a playing area you have, and how many of the lead boys you can put on the table.

npm

andygamer,
Those are absolutely beautiful pictures – thank you for posting!

npm

Npm,

many thanks, I have probably asked you alrteady! It remains a concern, however I shall bide my time, watch the yahoo group, wait for the ECW and buy three, we shall see!

Tally Ho!

nickinsomerset,
My mom always told me 'patience is a virtue'.
BTW my sister lives in Barrington, Somerset – is that close to you?

npm

I got Command of the Prussian cavalry stuck behind the Bavarians, so i got to watching them take a beating all game. You can witness my torso doing nothing, in the pictures with the badge labeled "Steve". This gave me an admittedly Skewed first look at the game.

I'm not sure if i like bringing a computer into miniatures games. I'm not some older gamer, in fact I'm in my mid 20s, but I've had enough experience with computers in my life to know they are not to best trusted at the best of times. a computer program is only as good as the guy who programmed it(and the person imputing data), and the standard industry practice was to release a product when it was about 80% complete. that leaves a lot of bugs kicking around. add into that the fact that(or so I've been told) that you can't backtrack in the game to fix data input errors and such, one big mistake could ruin the rest of the game. Plus, i would definitely not want to be the guy stuck on the computer doing data entry for the entire game.

The game was definitely fantastic looking though. that's what attracted me to the game in the first place(that and my friend loves F-P war).

Npm,

Barrington is about 10 miles west of me,

Tally Ho!

nickinsomerset,
Good grief….. well maybe we could meet up for a pint next time I'm in the old country visiting my nearest and dearest!
There are several C&GII players in Somerset to my knowledge.
All the best

npm

I think the game lasted from 7:30 to around 11:30 without any major breaks (it being after dinner and with most of the vendors closed for the evening). I missed the setting up and laying out the troops in their initial positions, so I don't know how much time that took. [Thank you, Ligoniere. It's a good convention, so I enjoy taking the photos.]

NPM, indeed it would be useful to find some other C&GII players and assess the game for myself! Next time you are this side of the pond let me know, via the Yahoo group, the George in West Coker does a good pint of Ale, and is also the meeting place of the South Somerset Wargames Group!

Tally Ho!

Hi all,

Thanks much Andygamer for taking so many great picture of my game. I got a few myself but nowhere near what you have provided.

I appreciate all the kind comments on the look of the game. Have been working on this collection for some time and was very proud of the layout.

I have been running C&G games for many years now and must say I prefer them to paper based games by a wide margin. For me its really a question of depth vs. overhead. So many thing can happen in the game that you will not see in a standard set of rules (not without completely bogging down in charts and tables anyway). The weather changes, officers show up drunk, Units involuntarily change formation when under fire or go prone, units refuse to carry out orders, they get tired, they run out of ammunition, some of them surrender or help wounded to the rear….the list goes on. Its just like watching a little story unfold each time. To get this depth in a paper based game would increase the complexity significantly. Its all seamless on the computer. I enjoy the realism without the additional bookkeeping.

The Hotlead game was my first con game. I believe we had seven or eight players, none of whom had played before. We were off and running after about ten minutes of intro and everyone caught on very quickly using the one page quick reference charts. Given the size of the game (reinforced divisions) and the number of new players I was quite worried we would not be able to play to a conclusion. We did it but it meant keeping things moving very quickly and I had to remain very focused on the inputs. I had another guy co-hosting and able to answer questions. This helped to move the game along.

My impression is that the players liked it. There was cheering at various points throughout the game and most of them seemed very focussed and engaged. No one seemed bored.
Three of the player I have gamed with before and they stayed behind to pack up and I asked them if they thought everyone enjoyed it – which they thought they did. We all agreed that Steve did not get an enviable command as the centre was congested with Bavarians and he really had no where to go with his cavalry. In retrospect, probably no one should have been commanding the cavalry as the best place for them was in reserve waiting for an opportunity – sorry Steve! I only intended to have five players nut more kept showing up and wanting to play. :-)

Mike

Here are the immediate post game results – which clearly reflect a French victory [I took these off the C&GII Yahoo Group – I thought they might be interesting to see]:

The Prussian Army has suffered losses of:
[ 34%] 6846 men of all arms
incl.[ 3%] 727 prisoners of all arms

[ 39%] 6701 bayonets
[ 5%] 101 sabres
[ 4%] 44 artillerists
Honors: [ 122] 2nd Brandenburg IR5

Losses include 3 General[s]:
[ 110] von Barnekow – Mortally wounded
[ 305] von Witzendorf – Mortally wounded
[ 310] Von Bergmann – Dressing wound

The French Army has suffered losses of:
[ 12%] 1441 men of all arms
incl.[ 1%] 196 prisoners of all arms

[ 7%] 742 bayonets
[ 60%] 375 sabres
[ 36%] 324 artillerists
12 cannon[s] lost
Honors: [ 521] 1st, 18h Line Regt

Losses include 1 standard[s]:
[ 701] 10th Cuirasseur Regt.

The units that are shown with Honors, are those units that have seen the most action during the game, and who are still in good order at the close of play.

You can see from the combat losses that the French cavalry and artillery took heavy losses, including the loss of a Cuirassier standard, compared to the Prussian cavalry and artillery. But the Prussian infantry took it on the chin. The losses amongst Prussian officers also reflects their commitment to the fight – they were obviously in the thick of the fight.

npm

You're welcome for the photos, Mike and npm.

Hi Nigel,

Your analysis of the game is spot on Nigel. In fact the French Cuirasseurs decided to charge a fresh Prussian Battalion of approximately 1,000 men in stationary line armed with breechloading rifles. I said to the French player when he asked tocharge.."you do know whats going to happen don't you?" He said "oh yeah" and we proceeded. It was glorious! :-)

For those who are not aware, Nigel of NPM is the designer of the system. He has his own yahoo group and he is very generous with systems explanations so the game is not as much of a black box as you might think. In any event I am sure no real battle was ever conducted with complete certainty of what the rules are so perhaps some ambiguity is a good thing. Just my view. The results I have seen have felt very historically right for me. There is also ongoing discussion and debate on the Yahoo goup that leads to evolutionary improvements to the system which Nigel has provided as free upgrades to owners of the game.

Its a great group and game. Give it a try!

I started with computer moderated rules with Eagle Bearer many years ago. I have since played a few other sets mainly at Historicon. My concern is that players are at the mercy of the program designer. So many things happen below the surface we have zero clue how they factor into game play. I also am not enamored with the interface requirement. The games don't seem to play any faster. While I have enjoyed the games I played in I believe the tech isn't quite at the point to make these viable for most gamers.

YMMV.

Thanks,

John

Andygamer,

Great pictures.

MikeinNS,

Nice game. You remind us of how much fun the FPW period can be with Carnage and Glory. Someone will have to add FPW to the list of future events at HMGS conventions. (Hint, hint, Nigel.)

Crucible,

FYI, while your comments about computer programs may have truth in the real world, you should know (in case you don't already) that Carnage and Glory (and its designer) have been around for decades. Literally thousands of hours have gone into the system in both development and playtesting for all its various forms (AWI/SYW, ACW, Nap., FPW, etc.). I know because I've had the pleasure of being involved for many of those hours. Although the system is always being evaluated by the designer and the players who adhere to it, at this point I would say that any bugs in the system have been exterminated. I'm not a computer whiz either but the system works for me.

Sorry your cavalry got stuck behind the infantry. It happens. If you are attending Historicon, there will be several Carnage and Glory games going on all weekend. I'm sure there will be room for you in the front lines of one of them. Hope to see you there.

John,

I appreciate your comments. Carnage and Glory GMs, including myself, have heard them before. Regarding pace of play, in part it varies with the size of the game. Also, some convention games are like reunions for the C&G crowd. Accordingly, some games are played at a more relaxed pace. Other GMs "crack the whip" with players and play a 15 minute game turn in real time. Like you said, YMMV. As far as what happens below the surface, most games/simulations depend, in part, on the "bias" of the system/scenario designer. I think Carnage and Glory is less biased than most rules systems I've seen, regardless of period. I agree with you that some players want to know what's going on at all times. I just don't think that's realistic, either in a game, a simulation of a battle or a real battle. I chalk up what goes on behind the screen and inside the computer to "fog of war." Sometimes the fog lifts for a player, sometimes it doesn't.

Once again, if you are attending Historicon, there will be plenty of Carnage and Glory games to pick from. We hope you join us. Your feedback in real time is welcome.

Best regards to all,

Ronin

Thanks I appreciate the offer. I have played in some C&G games years ago. I had a great time. the game looked awesome. I have also sat in and watched games too. The games were fun. I am also a huge fan of chaos or fog of war in the rules I use. I wouldn't play without it. However, while i know that computer based rules provide that it isn't without a price. You have to have someone locked to that interface postion. This makes using computer rules a non starter for most of our local games. I think that rules like this may eventually become the norm. I just think the tech needs to advance first. Think about if voice interface was possible thru a wireless headset. That would be cool.

Thanks,

John

Many moons ago I used to be the reviewer for First Empire magazine and I remember slating C&G when it first came out, up against Eaglebearer/Follow the Eagle and Blood & Iron/Hard Pounding as it was. However over the intervening years Nigel has continually developed his product whilst the others have either fallen away or lost momentum.

Now I solo using C&GII for Napoleonics and am very eagerly awaiting the ECW/TYW version in the summer. Much kudos to Nigel for sticking with his product and keeping it going.

Old Bear,
The ECW/TYW system is planned for release in July at Historicon. As is typical with my low key approach, there won't be much fanfare, maybe an announcement here on TMP.

Really happy to hear that you're having fun with the Napoleonic's version – more updates just around the corner……

npm

Good to hear, Nigel. I'll be monitoring the Yahoo group waiting for the signal. :)

dear all,

that a wonderfull work.
Could ypu please tell me, from whom are the other figures which are not foundry?

greetings

Hi Rudi,

The Germans are a mix of Foundry, old helion 1866 and some Old Glory WW1 reservists painted as 1870. Also a few Battle Honours WW1 officers uhlans and Zouaves.

The French are mostly Foundry with some 1859 Battle Honours, and some sash and saber and Foundry ACW union officers thrown in. That covers the vast majority of it.

Cheers.

Michael

thank you very much.

Really a great job. very good idea to take the old glory WW1.
You guys did a great job.

Greetings
"frische Fische, gute Fische"

andygamer, what are you doing?
Posting pics of a great game with beautiful terrain and hundreds of amazing figures?…..Now I'm thinking the new period I should game is Franco-Prussian, should I get French first, or start with Prussians, maybe get a little of both?
If your next post is Romans and Gauls, I'll have a coronary.
Seriously though, amazing, simply amazing.

Yes, men in baggy bright red pants against men in pointy hats, who could possibly resist? Not me, obviously! Great pics.

Mollinary

Sorry, cavcrazy.
:=^(