"EMPIRE and Stars*n*Bars available once again!" Topic

"Quick quick,… someone else throw a grenade!
I've not seen a brawl like this since the great Terry1956 "Lasalle" slag-off:
TMP link"

And the interesting link between the two is that they are both prominently featured on The War Event:

link

Thread started Feb 18, four days after the announcement that Empire will be for sale on The War Event. No conflict of interest there.

Poor taste for the author of one set of rules to be critical of another competing set, imo. In my entire life I've only ever played Empire. I recently pulled out the nappys and was going to get back into it after a long layoff. I'm so disappointed

WOW! AMAZING STUFF!!!
Who'da thunk it!?!?!
More twists 'n' turns than a Agatha Christie Murder story,..
What a douch bag!

"Dasher (or so you say), claims the wrong person was dawghoused. Dasher INDEED! Or should I say;…… MR PITTS!!!!!!"

trailape,

THAT was very funny!

Worst marketing effort EVER!

In a prior life, was he associated with New Coke?

"Worst marketing effort EVER!"

Yep. How to torpedo your own business in three easy steps.

Look on the bright side: at least we know where our friend Terry1956 landed.

I've been watching "enemy at the gates", one of my favorite recent war movies after "tears of the sun". The opening scene reminded me of this thread, all those "Empire" heroes being gunned down very workmanlike from both sides of the battlefield,…I mean thread.

Interesting effort on the part of Mr. P., and a really sad end, as far as I'm concerned, to someone I thought was once a genuine wargame hero… RIP Mr. B.

…only my humble opinion, Will

The brouhaha doesnt seem to have turned off all interest:

"The War Event Statistics
Threads: 171, Posts: 795, Members: 141
Welcome to our newest member, Extra Crispy"

And other TMPers are active on the forum. So each to his own. Let it go.

Allen

Stop being the Voice of Reason Allen!!!

<shakes his head> Well, no, what I said was: "I can't help but wonder if maybe the wrong person was dawghoused in all this mess."
I came in late and read through this and saw a lot of objec tionable behavior all around.
That said, I certainly do agree that the "sock puppet" tactic was over the line; that alone is reason enough to be booted.
Even so, the follow-on provocations, made without regard for any purpose but to continue levelling attacks at the individual in question simply because he left himself open to such attacks, were no less distasteful.
But let's face it, folks; we gamers are part of a social group which, for the most part, is hardly renowned for its good manners. While we have yet to hound someone to suicide with inflammatory postings, there are always some people hanging around every listserve who seem eager to try.
Oh, well. It's not like there aren't plenty of other Napoleonic rules sets out there, and in the final analysis, that's really all that this is about.
G'night, all!

Now how does Rick Hensley fit into all of this? I saw his name on the War Event forum, and a sock puppet account used what appears to be his email address to verify the account…

Oh, that gentleman is just an Empire enthusiast, expressing opinions such as:

"And the Sam Mustafa-hairbrained rules such as Grande-Whatever-Armee or LaSalle-Turning-In-His-Grave are samples of rules that do not pass the sniff test for representing anything historical."

link

…or:

"…long-time wargamer who grew sick of the clowns on other gaming sites"

link

Just one end of the spectrum, Bill. Surely not *all* of the War Event regulars are TMP sock puppets?

Allen

"to continue levelling attacks at the individual in question simply because he left himself open to such attacks, were no less distasteful."

Dasher I tend to agree, however in re-reading the posts I feel that he didn't so much leave himself open to further attacks as much as blatantly invite them.

Well, all of this has gotten me kind of interested in my old rulebooks (which was probably the intent). Empire 2nd ed. I remember we played once but the arguments over the rules were enough to force a unanimous vote to never play it again…It still occupies space in my Napoleonic section. Stars n Bars (1979) I remember as being better in that we played it a number of times before retiring it to the shelf where it still sits (30 years later). It sits next to J.E.B also by Scotty Bowden of which I remember nothing at all except that I wrote notes in the rulebook as to what needed to be fixed. Ah the good old days… It certainly is nice to have choices :-)

I am so disappointed with Scotty Bowden. Many years ago I was in an Empire game he ran in Dallas. It was either Dal-Con or Twister Con, I am sure Clay remembers. It was so much fun. I had never played the rules before and it went so well and Scotty did a great job. He didn't have to refer to his rules one time during the whole game. Wow, just so sad.

I moved away and the group I game with now had quit using Empire V several years before I moved there. The story of the last great Empire V game is still told around campfires here.

But to make a short story long, they had spent weeks planning this huge battle to be played in a warehouse and the whole thing degenerated into a shouting match over some rules interpretation (imagine that!) and it was lights out for Empire ever sense.

We now use AOE, B&B and I guess now LaSalle. The thing about LaSalle is every time someone has had a small criticism about the game it tended to illicit a strong reaction. Even if you state you really like the rules. I could be wrong but it just seemed that way.

I couldn't figure out why until I read the Terry1957 thread. Now I understand why and I don't blame anyone for being a little sensitive after that, lol. TMP is worth the price of admission; I may even become a supporting member after that!

I wonder if Mr Pitts would be interested in promoting Warglue? He seems to have all the marketing skills required.

Pat

wow what a way to promote your business.

"Dasher (or so you say), claims the wrong person was dawghoused. Dasher INDEED! Or should I say;…… MR PITTS!!!!!!"

trailape,

THAT was very funny!

Hey, Like all Gunners; I aim to please!
That said, I hope DASHER understands it was just a joke,…

trailape, I'm still laughing! All we need now is a fake goatee or rubber mask being pulled off icon.

"TMP is the pleasentest forum I know regardless of genre, and I've been online since 1980."

Erm, no you haven't :-)

Did Scott Bowden actually trash Sam's rules also? If so I am very saddened, I did not expect that from him. it seems to me that this forum; "The War Event" is a place where adherers to Empire can now have a place to go to trash all who did not like that system. It seems like they are seeking revenge?

As for Sam's rules, I have to admit they are not for me, they look pretty and obviously will do well and gain great support for our hobby but they are just not detailed enough for me. That is just me, no biggie. But Sam has also done his own cause no favours with his own recent attitude and sock puppeting. I did not expect that kind of thing from him, especially since he is an academic.

All this thread shows me is the dirt and animosity that still prevails in our period of the hobby called wargaming and how deeply people get vindictive and nasty when others do not agree with them. Having bad attitudes only inflames the situations.

I made a conscious effort over 20 years ago not to play at clubs etc but instead to play in a private group I established at my own home and stay out of the drama that was "rules" preferences of this time. We stuck to our own personal preferences and our group has been going since 1980 when I first began rolling dice at my home. I was pretty much shielded form all the animosity and very ignorant of it all until joining TMP but although I still play in a private group I got to admit, coming to TMP I enjoy the drama of it all and I dare say most of you do also otherwise this thread would not be so popular.

It is very sad I will admit to see all this unfold but c'mon, who here would have it any other way?

At the risk of flogging a "living impaired" horse.
They bang on about how they have a mature Forum because they use real names then come on TMP and break every rule in the book including an author pretending to buy his own book.
I say old bean.
Though I must add I've never the TMPers close ranks so fast before.
:oP

What is this Sam Mustapha sock puppeting thing? I sthere a TMP link I need to catch up on?

Frankly the notion that Greg Pitts doesn't deserve further criticism is a little too nice for me. I think his behaviour, whilst sadly familiar, is worthy of condemnation, if only from the viewpoint that this guy came here to sell us his product. He is right up there with the worst I have come across and I have already spread the word to fellow gamers who do not spend their time lounging around here. No doubt I won't be the only one doing that and Mr Pitts will find out that in some cases arrogance can cost you money.

I didn't like his photo either.

This thread is a good example of the frailities of human nature. When you think of how many years people have had computers and to still be unaware of how IP addresses and the like work? Of course, getting banned from a website is not the end of the world, but the consequences of such ignorance can be far, far worse depending on a person's pecadillios.

I did the sock-puppet thing a few times many years ago when I was a member of Frothers, but over there at the time it was very common behaviour amongst both the "in" crowd and the shunned. People would create a new membership and post in a thread they were already in, and then post in it again as a guest. You could always tell who was writing. That was part of the game. One difference, though, was that the in crowd knew about it in a different way, i.e. they must have been sidecommed with the information from a forum admin, but that didn't really matter as (just as it is here) everyone always knew a sockpuppet post when they saw it…it was just another means of communicating there in, sometimes, quite difficult situations ;-)

When I saw the post of the banning on the front page accompanied by a picture no less! I was intrigued and (I'll admit) happy. I've been hanging out on this forum for a while and have learned a great deal about the hobby and history from the discussions. In all my time here I had one bad experience and it was with a member GrPitts. (Apparently he has changed his screen name to TheWarevent). Mr. Pitts' comments were arrogant and condescending as if he had some secret knowledge about the ancient world, but was unwilling to share his source. I'll link the thread to the conversation below (a lot of it is snipped because of the rudeness of his comments)

TMP link

This current thread confirms my opinion of the guy. Huzzah for management!

Matt

Old Bear 'I don't like his 'photo Either'

Lol – i was thinking that!

Shane Devries ' I did not expect that kind of thing from him, especially since he is an academic'

I spat coffee at that one – A good reason the Napoleonics board is such an Iliad of Woes is that so many of the regular posters there have 'Staked their Academic Reputation' on Prussian Gaiter Straps having been made of felt rather than canvass during the Winter of 1810.

Pat

Holy smokes – talk about your Epic Fail for rolling out some new rules!

I guess I am a little late to get on the band wagon here, I was kind of surprised by the way Greg Pitts acted. That isn't really how you sell any thing. The one bright spot of this whole this is that he set a new standard in douchebaggery.

When their ancient rules came out that's what I had to do to get 'em.

The ancients rule set, Casus Belli, is a revised edition of Ancient Empires ( link ). For quite a while there was a playtest version available on the "AncientEmpires2nd" Yahoo group, which was closed shortly after The War Event site opened.

AE was, in turn, an adaptation of Empire for Greco-Roman warfare. I bought a copy of AE when it first came out in 1991, but didn't much care for the system. I have tried to unload my copy periodically since then, but haven't had any luck thus far.

Cheers,
Scott (my real forename, btw)

Actually Shane, yes he did. Unless some fiend stole his name and used it to sign up over there.

This site has been getting way too boring recently after all the Lasalle hype dried up, this thread is just what it needed!!

We really need a "TMPer Of The Month" award, given to the TMP member who has done most to create traffic and promote interest in the site, first award should go to Mr Pitts. Terry1956 will clearly get the "..Of The Year" award and my old friend LLD gets a special life time achievement award.

This is the first time I ever read a multipage thread through in one sitting. Humor at its highest. Good thing we still have authors like John Hill around. That's meant as a true compliment as John is a fine gentleman. Pitts/Bowden could take some lessons.

Did Scott Bowden actually trash Sam's rules also? If so I am very saddened, I did not expect that from him. it seems to me that this forum; "The War Event" is a place where adherers to Empire can now have a place to go to trash all who did not like that system. It seems like they are seeking revenge?

Can someone post the link. I will not condemn Scotty without at least seeing what he wrote.

I noticed that the upcoming Texicon event in the Dallas area has been mentioned in a few posts here. Mr. Pitts is involved in that event (as a volunteer), but I am pretty sure that the organizers of the event don't really know much about him or his history.

I hope that the DFW gamers will support Texicon. There are a lot of great guys running events, many of them good TMPers as well.

By the way, the 5th Annual Skirmish Gameday will be on Saturday, July 31st, 2010 at the Plano Convention Centre in Plano, Texas. An earlier comment from Mr. Pitts in this thread claiming that our attendance has been declining could not be further from the truth.

Allen Eldridge

wow… I guess this is what I get for not reading TMP for a few days.

whatever

"Can someone post the link. I will not condemn Scotty without at least seeing what he wrote."

It was posted above, but once more:

link

"terry1956", who had initiated this thread on TMP:

TMP link

…posted on the War Event forum:

"Having played a game of said rules, I placed them on ebay the next day."

Mr. Bowden responded with:

"Terry, good to see you HERE!

I enjoyed reading the comments, especially the point about getting rid of the rules right away! Folks with discriminating tastes often have similar experiences."

Allen

Well, this is a shame. It's never nice to see this kind of thing. A few years back, when I was new to wargaming and had joined the Ancient Empires II yahoo group, Greg Pitts was the moderator and a nice, helpful guy.

High stress levels (no shortage of these in the current clime) mixed with a sense of under-appreciation in a hobby you've devoted much of your adult life to, the odd personality clash, the odd rash, prideful comment made, the odd goading reply and a decent bloke loses his rag to a mixture of laughter and condemnation. Not nice to see at all.

There are lessons for all of us here.

Aaron

mixed with a sense of under-appreciation in a hobby you've devoted much of your adult life to

Whoa.

Let's keep a sense of proportion here.

Add my name ( I will make something up) to the list of those not wishing to condemn Mr S Bowden for something without seeing some serious damage reports first. There is too much good History there. As for Mr Pitts, well he has committed business self mutilation several times on this site on ONE thread and has to win some kind of ignorant bore award for his efforts! I have never read anything quite like the back and forth Dawghouse remarks from someone while attempting to promote a product for SALE! Whoever owns Empire Edition Gazillion and Stars and Bars(short version) and whatever else might consider taking a different direction with their promotion!

Sincerely George "Kingfish" Stevens

Hey! they are still looking for gamemasters to run miniatures events at Texicon!

I sure people will be banging the door down to work with this guy.

This doesn't speak well of Mr. Bowden.

Connard,

The first edition of Ancient Empire came out in 1991, so I think it's fair to say that almost 20 years of trying to keep one's rules in circulation constitutes a fair chunk of an adult life. And judging by posts Greg has made here in the past, I think it's also fair to say that he probably thought his rules deserved more appreciation than they got.

You're right in saying that an appropriate sense of proportion is always needed in these matters, but one man's junk is another man's treasure, and all that.

Anway, that's all I have to say on it.

Aaron

Only thing left at Texicon are Friday first shift and the late nite owl game slots. I'll admit I was stuck waiting to see what my work schedule was going to be for the weekend since I only have 10 years on the job and don't get much choice for my quarterly schedule so I was late getting out of the gate to offer up a game.
Part of me does want to support the Pajak bros. effort but another part of me sees Pitts still being REALLY miffed about all this and looking to cut heads in public over the situation and casting a dire gloom over my gaming experience. I don't think this is going to be over by May as it appears Pitts grinds a grudge to a fine razor edge for an extended period of time. Course I don't know the guy from Adam in real life versus his intarwebs presence and we might get on like gangbusters in person.

Thanks for the posting.

I haven't played Sam's rules so I will not condemn them. Havig been involved in publishing a number of rules over the years I will not wish any oter author ill, it is a labour of love for the period. Some rules are not to my taste, Emipire is one such set, mainly because some of the rule do not appear logical to me, i.e. bombarding a unit doing enough casualties to almost destroy the formation an then finding the unit does not have to take a morale test for example.

Interestingly, here amongst the Napoleonic gaming community here Empire is all but dead.

I like pie

Arriving over the now quiet scene of a vicious battle, the pilot of the dark and rather sinister craft throttles back the motors, and slowly circles the site, taking in the carnage, the bodies, and still burning debris…

… shaking his head in a mix of amazement, amusement, and disgust, the pilot turns to a different course, and slides the throttles forward, moving off in pursuit of other, more interesting things to do with his time, like flak interdiction or engaging op-fors at ridiculously lopsided odds against his own survival…

And this is precisely why as much as the period fascinates me, I simply refuse to take up Napoleonics until further notice… Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and the mule they rode in on!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

I stepped away from NP and ACW, many many years ago don't know why, and have been thinking about taking it up again, until now, I just remembered why I walked away.

Doug (real name)

I like General de Brigade so there.

I bought a copy of Empire I in 1977. Being new to historical miniature gaming, my friends and I had a hard time understanding it at first, but the wealth of knowledge provided in the set was impressive and very useful. I made it a point to attend Scott Bowden's lectures whenever possible.
I've always believed that when a customer asks a question, all they really want is an answer. Never put them into a position where they feel like they have to match wits with you.

Closest I get the Nappies is Flintloque and I'm surprised the creators of that game survived the torches and pitchforks as they were chased to the windmill for making impure Nappies. Although I'd imagine Slaughterloo would present itself as a good system for Naps without the ogres, dogs, and dwarves.

I see GRPitts has thrown down on his own site that Bill must either apologise or face the consequences. The fall out from this could take a while!

I don't see Bill kowtowing to this character. I'd opt for "the consequences" if I were in his position. All a judge would have to do is look at this post in its unedited form and they would probably throw out any lawsuit out of hand.