"Religion on the Armies of Napoleon Era." Topic

"Good soldiers fight and maintain discipline best, when due obedience is paid to the Comandments of God".

My question sirs is how important was the religion on the Armies of Napoleon Era?.

I know that the French were maybe the most agnostics, but I suppose that some chaplans went to war with them.

And what about the other big Armies as Russians, Austrians, British or others?.

On the Spanish Armies, there were plenty of priests (padres) more on the guerrilla warfare than in the regular Army, but what about the Portugueses, Danish, Sweden, etc etc.

Are there any documentation about the performance of the religion men on Napoleon Wars?.

Did the great Generals of that Era search for the support of the religion before a battle or avoid them completly?.

Thanks in advance for you information and/or comments.

Amicalement
Armand

Dear Sir, I didn't want to tried about a development of any religion in my thread, I'm asking for sources or facts about what was the importance of the religion men at the Napoleon Wars.

You had miss the point Sir.

Amicalement
Armand

Actually no he didn't Armand, you've missed his point. No matter how you want to word it, religion has been banned from TMP for quite some time now, so you'll have to take this to the Blue Fez.

En Avant, I think it is an interesting question.

I don't see how the question is any more blue fez territory than one on the ancients board about Roman generals consulting the sacred chickens prior to giving battle. It is pertinent to the history of the armies in question and may speak to soldier morale and motivation.

But perhaps the requires a ruling from the sidelines? Whatever Bill says of course goes.

I am sure we have some experts on the period here can give meaningful comment.

Just don't throw the sacred chickens overboard like Publius Claudius….

The way Armand worded his question, I don't think this qualifies as a "blue fez".

I'll therefore give my answer.

I believe religion was very important the the average Napoleonic soldier. Perhaps the French less so, due to the nature of their revolution, but even so, some individuals would have found it indespensable.

As far as citing examples, I recall many references in my readings, where individual accounts are given. The Russians, Austrians, I can't recall the exact sources, but I recall an account by a member of the British 52nd Light infantry at Waterloo and a personal account of the Prussian attack on Plancoit during the Waterloo battle that leave no doubt that religion was very important to Napoleonic soldiers. I think the saying that there are no atheists in a foxhole would aslo apply to them. One book IIRC is a "Near Run Thing" or something similar to that being a Wellington quote.

Sounds like a perfectly legitimate historical question to me. Religion was a major source of many conflicts, not to mention important to some soldiers as the question asked. Banning any mention of the "R" word pretty much squashes any discussion of the Crusades, most of the 16th century, and many other conflicts. I would hope the site is sophisticated enough to distinguish between discussion of religion in history and debate of religion.

I recall Russian Orthodox priests parading icons before the Russian troops before Borodino (while Napoleon showed a picture of his new-born son to the French). Sadly, I don't know that much about the attitudes of individual soldiers – a distinct gap in my knowledge.

Dear Armand
This is a complex subject. I recall that Henry of Navarre [a Huegonot] stated that Paris was worth a mass as he converted to be a Roman Catholic to become King of France. Wars of Religion alas engulfed Europe in the C16th-17th Centuries culminating in the 30 Years War. As far as I recall the Religion question was not used except in Spain and by the Russians against the Turks.

This is a simple list of states and major religion.In General northern Europe was Protestant and southern Europe was Roman Catholic. Eastern Europe was Orthodox Church.

Catholic
- France = Officially agnostic but mainly Catholic. The Jocobins tried to destroy the church
- Spain
- Bavaria
- Portugal
- Saxony [officially as they were once Kings of Poland]
- Austria
- Poland

Lutheran or Calvanist
- Prussia,
- Hanover
- Hessen-Kassel
- Sweden
- Denmark
- The Netherlands

Russian Orthodox
- Russia

Great Britain
You could not be a Roman Catholic and hold an officers commission until the mid C19th in the British Army. This was often evaded in the "I have no window into man's heart" attitude. This was passed in 1680s after James converted to Catholism when his pragmiatic brother Charles II was on the throne. James Stuart had to resign from the Admiralty.

Religious tolerance was important in the growth of the British Empire with the influx of Jews, Hugenots from France etc…
- England [Church of England (Protestant)]
- Wales [Chapel/non-conformist]
- Ireland [Roman Catholic]
- Scotland [Presbyterian (Protestant) with Roman Catholics at the time in the far north]

Certainly a very interesting but tricky subject.

Stephen

I'm disappointed that anyone who considers himself an historian would consider a discussion of the importance of religion to the armies of the day to be too sensitive a subject. With that train of thought, we would soon drop discussions of race, gender, and anything else that make makes PC drones blush.

Thus, I applaud Armand's question, and would encourage an honest discussion.

Stephen's summary of religion by nature is helpful, but I think the central issue is the importance of religion to the individual of the day, more specifically to the soldier of the day. My books are not at hand, but I belive that Holmes, Grossman, and others have argued that religios fervor ebbed and flowed. Whereas the wars of Religion marked a high (low?) point of religious belief, they ebbed considerably, until religion meant comparatively little to most soldiers of the Napoleonic era. There are always exceptions, but overall, there is less mention of God's hand in war during our period.
That belief soon revived, however, and the American Civil War and the First World war were marked by great belief in Providence, though by the WWII faith had fallen considerably from the devotion of WWI.
Vietnam was another low mark; I wonder how we shall characterize the Gulf? One side of great faith, the other trying not to be?

Interesting.

Bon chance, Armand.

Best……….Mark

Dear Mark
I could answer the question better over beleifs in the 18th Century but strangely I have not seen it mentioned during the Napoleonic Wars that I recall except the reaction of the Spanish populace to the French and many of the Guerilla leaders being priests.

There are various attitudes in the Prussian Army against Catholic Officers especially after the aquisition of Westphalia and the Rhineland. Former Westphalian Officers who were Catholic were accepted in the Landwehr by not the Regular Army in 1815. Not clear whether it was that they had fought for Napoleon or because of religion.

Certainly there is more there than you realise.
Stephen

If any mention of religion is an automatic ticket to the Blyue Fezzy, then we cannot discuss:
1) ECW
2) Maccabees
3) Any Arab-Israeli Wars
4) the Crusades
5) Etc.
6) Etc., etc.
7) The reasons Canada did not join the American Revolution
8) More etc.

Although you can never discount the personal faith or fervor of individuals, amongst nations the common thread between Religion and the Napoleonic Wars was nationalism. In most cases that I can think of where religion was an issue it was closely associated with nationalism and patriotism. It was because you were a Spanish Catholic a Prussian Lutheran A Russian Orthodox Christian, etc,

Let me give you some examples:
-the most obvious the use of icons processions and priests to inspire the Russian troops at Borodino to inflame them to defend mother Russia
-Napoleon's insistence to have the Pope present at his coronation ( although he did it himself) and to reach a Concordat even though he happily stole Church lands, had multiple marriages and was probably an agnostic at best
- a Catholic country split between conservative factors favoring King Joseph and the more rural based guerrillas
- Prussian troops singing famous German Hymns after battle with " Gott mitt uns" on their standards – religion or being German
1798 Ireland- Irish Catholics and Presbyterians uniting to fight an " English" establishment-

and ,many more

Many thanks for your comprention, support and information!

The thread was really motivated by a big picture painted before the battle of Leipzig, the biggest on Napoleon Era. There the monarchs and thousands of soldiers which had fought that battle, are praing to god with many priests or chaplans (?) around thanking for their victory.

As I read more about Napoleon Wars, there are incredible details from first and second hands, but very few comment abouth a religion sistem to be "in touch" with god before the battles. And as on our days, it's still common to give the soldiers spiritual assistence, I had thought "What would had happened 200 years ago with that!".

Did the great Generals as Wellington, Blûcher, etc etc before their battles order a religion service to their troops to encourage them?.
Did Napoleon?.
What had happened on Leipzig were the thousand of Allied soldiers became from different religions?.

What happened with the priests, chaplans, etc when they became prisioners or war?. Which was their status?. Like a doctor?. Like a officer?.

Etc etc etc… is a great theme which would had many roads.

thanks again for your civil participation and for understand the way of my question.

Amicalement
Armand

Yes, there is a ban on talk of religion and politics but that would be current afars religion politic.

It's like saying we can't decuss the Napoleoinc code or Continental system becasue it's politics.

We are talking past tense here.

On topic:
Reading about Borodino many rank and file and officers of the russian army did alot of religous rituals, quite a lot actualy. But there was defenatly more secular people in the army that looked at their pious commrads with some question marks.

Now on the same side very little obvious religous rituals happed in the french camps, now they french were poplulated with Poles, which at diffrent times have been quite religous, germans, mabye a mix of the more pious and the french that was most secular, I can't remebmer many french leters or AAR that mention God, while the germans often have some refrence about God keep me safe, or with the will of God I'll be on your arms again(letter to wife)
The french didn't have many of those, alteast not in the officer ranks, now with thousands upon thousands of officers you would get the whole strada.
And with even more commen soldiers I'm sure quite alot tok a knee and did the cross before battle.
France has gone though it's periods of secular and non secular periods, when france officaly became a secular state in early 1900, the Catholics did riot for some days.

The British were a mixed lot, some were quite religous others not so much, you still had the enlightenment leaving it's mark, but high sociaty was very dependent on conformety.
you couldn't stick out or you'd be austrasised. Now some exentric scientist might get to do thier stuff. but people would talk behind his back ect. british high sociaty is kinda like high school, "oh did you see what sarah had on yester day, thats soooo 1798" Same would aply to ones religion, jews and catholics were tolerated some places, others not.

In the army you had lots of Irish that natuarly had high precentige of religous, while scots and English might not be so much.
There is also a diffrence in how you would answer "important"

For all countries
At that time most of not all poor(rank and file) people belived in god, the agnostic and atheist were only in a tiny number mostly scientist or phiosophers.
But not all people that belive on god deem religion or thier faith to be important in thier lives.
If asked do you belive on god, almost all would say yes.
If asked do you prey often or feel the need to be blessed by a preist before battle, then the number would be smaller.

As some said, I belive in god, and he belives in me but we don't realy talk, we stay out of eachoers way.

I don't think I realy answerd any question, I just rambled on

And a VERY GOOD rambled was, Mr. Gunfreak!!

Amicalement
Armand

in same enlightened style:

spanish gorillas preyed. on french suply convoys

british austrasised there criminals who had high precentige of Irish

i have never seen a french leter that mentioned god, but when one brakes thiers alot of decussing…

@ AECurtis- Are you OK?

Oh, *I'm* fine. Thanks for asking.

Although a large proportion of the British army was Irish, don't assume they were all catholic. It's likely they contained a large proportion of the politically reliable militia, which would be Protestant.

Ahem. THAT was very disturbing… Please, don't do that again…

The historical role if religon is absolutely fair game! I mean, can we not discuss "The Three Musketeers" because they fought in the Wars of Religon? For that matter, are also not allowed to dicuss the DBA lists for the Crusades?

The discussion of our personal religous beliefs is out of bounds. Historical inquiry, including the cultural context, is one of the things that these boards are for.

I, for one, never really considered the question and have found both the question and the responses interesting.

In the book "In the Legions of Napoleon" the young Polish officer describes seeking out a priest during a part of his time in Spain for services while temporarily quartered in a village/town. Yet later in the book he casually mentions cutting the throats of the priests taken as hostages when attacked by partisans while on the march.

Other memoir styled books sometimes mention a belief in God among the rank and file or junior officers, but I can't off hand recall anything from a Suchet, Ney, or Jomini. Interesting question Armand.

Kerpob…..While the officers of Irish militia regiments were primarily Protestant, the other ranks were mostly Catholics, drafted from across Ireland. The United Irish made great efforts to infiltrate the ranks, and draw militiamen into the '98; Wolfe Tone promised the French that the militia regiments would be crippled by the deserting Catholics.
But the militia regiments saw few turncoats during the '98, though the militia id behave very badly in both combat with the rebels and in general vs. the populace. A nasty business.
For political reliability government could turn to Yeomanry regiments, primarily Protestant in ofiicers and rankers, who would do things that disgusted regular soldiers such as Cornwallis. Most Americans do not care for that name, but in Ireland he was a professional, and a true gentleman.

Of course, naturally, inevitably, when I saw the word "RELIGION" in the thread title (and this is not TBF) I just had to open it and take a looksee.

Objections to this topic being HERE and not sent to TBF, are only valid if Bill exercises his right to object. If he says nothing, then this thread is not a "religion" thread. Get it?

Religion in history, from NOW back to a million years ago, is one of the key causes of wars (as somebody above already noted): that is why I have always maintained that Bill's "solution", to the objections of others about what is suitable subject matter for discussion on a wargaming site, is unworkable, arbitrary and annoying as heck….

Yes, there is a ban on talk of religion and politics but that would be current afars religion politic.

It's like saying we can't decuss the Napoleoinc code or Continental system becasue it's politics.

We are talking past tense here.

Gunfreak, when does HISTORY take over from Modern (current affairs) discussion?

I recall how back in July of 1999, the descendants of Saladin met with descendants of Crusaders, and exchanged "the kisses and hugs of peace". The apologies all came from the Christians. Not a word of regret or apology from a single Muslim. That's BECAUSE Muslims start their jihad against Christianity with the butchery of Jerusalem at the end of the First Crusade: they conveniently ignore/forget their conquests and assaults on Europeans predating 1099. So current affairs must necessarily take this historicity into account when addressing how Muslims view the modern world. In other words, VIOLATE BILL'S ROOLS. To discuss the causes of WW2 will necessarily take in Jews and their unfinished business with as-yet-living Nazis around the world. I guess WW2 is "current affairs" too. More verbotten stuff for discussion. And so on, it all becomes stoopid and impossible (leave it up to Bill to fix it each time somebody gets their knickers all knotted up – and then like it or lump it: yes, I am very lumpy)….

Stephen,

There are various attitudes in the Prussian Army against Catholic Officers especially after the aquisition of Westphalia and the Rhineland. Former Westphalian Officers who were Catholic were accepted in the Landwehr by not the Regular Army in 1815.

could you give me some references for this statement ?

Concerning the original question, I agree with Gunfreak's summray: "For all countries".

Wasn't Napoleon who decided to "change" his religion accepting to be a "muslim" in Egypt?.

Of course I had to understand that his move was a big lie and that point only to a politic local matter to involved the civil population to his side.

But there we had a clear example to how "religion" moves on the Napoleon Era.

Or not?.

Amicalement
Armand

The Grande Armee went without chaplains. The troops were either atheists or agnostics and had little or no respect for clergy in general.

Napoleon did not want chaplains with the army and for him it was a matter of principle. The French Catholic priests were probably royalist in sympathy which could cause trouble, not the least of which was to endanger their own lives especially among the French enlisted men.

Some of the Grande Armee's foreign regiments, however, were allowed chaplains, such as the Swiss and the Poles as well as the Regiment Joseph Napoleon. Generally speaking, though, if the Grande Armee required the services of the clergy for whatever reason, they found what they needed among the local population wherever they were, though in Spain that might have been an 'iffy' proposition.

Sincerely,
K

Kevin,

"The [French] troops were either atheists or agnostics"

Can you please supply original or contemporary French-language documentation for this assertion ?

We know they didn't have chaplains and that the armée did not conduct services. But how do you know what the troops actually believed ?

Thanks in advance,
Chuey

As to the question asked.. I don't think religion had a major impact on the Napoleonic Wars at all.. there is the case of the Russians in 1812 being whipped into a frothing frenzy of course.. but overall no more impact than most conflicts that were not actually based on some religious idea from my reading.

TW

"French troops were either atheists or agnotics", France officialy "agnostic" ? what ? :0
first France was still officially catholic, not a bolshevik republic or something like that, and the atheism is more something particular to XXth century societies than rural napoleonic France
and second French soldiers came from this deeply rural catholic society so…

I remember reading in T.A. Dodge's "Napoleon and the Art of War…" that after the Battle of Waterloo, Blucher's Prussians sang "A Mighty Fortress is our God", the famous hymn written by Martin Luther. Apparently this was a Prussia military tradition of sorts; they sang it after the Battle of Leuthen as well.

I think this can be understood as sincere Christian faith among the rank and file, and who were probably very grateful to be alive and well.

On March 23rd Chuvak asked:

Kevin,

"The [French] troops were either atheists or agnostics"

Can you please supply original or contemporary French-language documentation for this assertion ?

We know they didn't have chaplains and that the armée did not conduct services. But how do you know what the troops actually believed ?

Thanks in advance,
Chuey

We gentle reader it's been over a month an Kevin has not yet deigned to reply. I for one would like an answer to this question and I'm sure I'm not alone. So please Kevin can you give us an answer and do it in a timely manner.

Elliott

Elliott – he's under no obligation to do so, but this isn't the only thread that's trailed off without any evidence presented to support a Kevin Kiley generalization. For me, saying "hey, it's a generalization based on my impressions from reading over many years, no specifics really" would be polite and would re-set what was said from statement of hard fact to statement of opinion and/or generalization that could be the subject of further study. Or clarification or actual evidence. I mean, if Kevin is just shooting off an off-the-cuff impression, why not just say so?

my impression from broad general reading around the topic would be that nearly all French soldiers were Catholics, but that many were of the non-practicing or not-too-serious type (or became that way) and may have trended towards deism. but I'd be surprised to find many (if any) actual atheists – or agnostics.

Verdome – I know it's a common and disengenuous techinque that Kevin Kiley uses in these threads. I have, in the past asked him repeatedly the same question, alwasy politely and yet he fails to respond adequately and ignores evidence not supported by his weltanschauung, for example Charles Esdaile's "Napoleon's Wars: An International History, 1803-1815." He's not the worse offender I've encounter on TMP, that dubious honour would go to TJRaymond, a psuedoscientis, who refused to answer a simple question after 4 months of repeated asking. It does, however, make me question Kevin's sincereity as an historian.

Elliott