"Why Linen Cuirasses?" Topic

What good were they? I mean, afterall, they were made of ….

linen?

That wouldn't seem to offer much protection.

Kevlar is only a fiber too. It all depends on how the complete unit is formulated.

They were made from glued layers of cloth. Good protection from a glancing cut, but not much from a thrust.
Besides, a linen cuirass with pteruges looks cool.

"This was made of many sheets of linen cloth glued together to a thickness of about 0.5cm. It was very stiff and surprisingly good protection, but at the same time much lighter than metal armour – about 3.5kg."
link

I'd imagine they have the advantage of weight, compared to lugging around a metal cuirass in the Meditteranean heat. And would have been much cheaper….

Also they were I think compressed layers, making something tough enough to do the job.

If it didn't protect you, they wouldn't have been worn.

another link here
link

Oooh, the woses have been weely, weely qwiet…

The first problem is that no one really know how or what the 'linen' cuirass was made from.
Textile armour is actually very efffective.
Here's an extract of bit of text I have written for my plastic hoplite box that may clear a few things up for you:

Although often referred to as the ‘linen cuirass' we do not know what material it was constructed from. The most likely candidates are leather and/or linen, which were very common materials and easy to manufacture into armour.
It was once suggested that linen sheets would have been stiffened with glue or a resin to create a hard and thick material. This has now been widely discredited as linen armour is most effective when quilted; so it absorbs and dissipates an impact, much in the way of a modern bullet proof vest.
Another candidate is linen woven in such a way that you can produce unusually thick single sheets, which can then be combined in layers.
Bronze or leather scales were sometimes sewn onto the outside, adding protection to vital areas such as the abdomen, chest or ribs.

Woodwose,
I have seen that article… it's a bit odd that he is experimenting with a technique that has no historical evidence to support it.
Guled linen was first suggested by Peter Connelly, but even he said it was a possible theory.. since then people seem to have taken it as fact. It is only recently that people are starting to look into it properly.

Besides, fine linen is a sign of good breading.

Rich

I always take a fine linen napkin and use it to line the basket, when serving home-made breads, fresh from the oven.

Guled linen? I would never use a guling cover to serve bread. It is bed linen, and peculiar to Indonesia:

link

Might come in useful when breeding, though. Kinky…

Allen

Many have expended considerable effort and numerous electrons to rail that a glued linen cuirass couldn't work, couldn't be made, that the glue would fall apart, that it simply wasn't done, etc; e.g:

link

Others just go ahead and do it, and achieve a result that looks remarkably like our visual sources (which in turn, look remarkably un-quilted):

link

As always, there are things we know, there are things we don't know, there are things we think we know, there are things we think we don't know, there are things we don't know that we know, and there are things we don't know that we don't know.

Allen

The experiments from Woody's link are more comprehensively addressed here:

link

Allen

I think the main problem is that there are no references at all to any kind of glue being used in the construction of Greek or Near eastern armour. And the fact that pretty much every form of textile armour in history has been quilted in one way or another.
Armourers I have spoken to find the idea of laminated linen counter intuitive and impractical.
I personally think it was probably made from leather, but I guess it will probably be one of those things we may never know.

"Armourers I have spoken to find the idea of laminated linen counter intuitive and impractical."

Again, others just go ahead and do it…

Allen

I seem to remember a British history show that tested glued linen and found it remarkably resistant to arrows from moderate range. I was shocked so may be those old ancients knew more than we think they did.

If I was being hit with a bronze or iron arrow, sword or spear, I'd rather have several layers of stiffened linen between me and the weapon than nothing at all.

It is unlikely to have been quilted, given that (1) it doesn't look quilted in the visual depictions we have, and (2) quilted armor wouldn't stand straight up when not tied down, the way the shoulder yoke does as seen here: link and here:
link

Maybe leather would act like that, but not quilted linen.

What glues were available back then?
Were any flexible enough to prevent the cracking of the linen and thus weakening it?

If I remember my woodwork class cloth was quite brittle when animal glue got on to cloth!

If I had to guess I would say it was linen covered leather
the linen providing comfort

I think this may have been seen as an improvement over the boiled and hardened leather armour which I think would have been quite stiff

I stick to my conviction that the linothorax was made of linoleum.

Come on, the words are at least half identical. That's gotta be worth something.

Allen: It's all well just going ahead and 'doing it' but why reproduce something for which there is zero evidence for and talk about it as if it is fact?
The problem is that before the classical age Greece, and the near east used quilted armour, and afterwards it continued to be used. If a new form of glued/laminated armour was invented that was superior, why does the method not exist in some form in later styles?
To throw a spanner in the works, you could find it significant that the only surviving example of this style of cuirass is made from iron!
We dont know what was going on under the surface of this armour, what we see in vase paintings may only be the covering over a quilted material, or some other composite material.
As I say, personally I think it was leather or some combination of the two!

Wasn't Samurai armour often made from linen or near equivalent?

'We dont know what was going on under the surface of this armour, what we see in vase paintings may only be the covering over a quilted material, or some other composite material.'

Why cover the quilting up? No one else bothered. Also does not form follow function.

Maybe the linothorax was suitable for hoplites and hellenestic pikemen because of the rest of their equipment and fighting style.

Nor can we be suprised linen or even leather perished when iron survived.

"To throw a spanner in the works, you could find it significant that the only surviving example of this style of cuirass is made from iron!"

Philip's was a different critter. There's a superficial similarity in design, but comparing its construction to what we see in artwork showing hoplites donning the linothorax, they aren't the same (see the description here):

link

Possibly there's no point in trying to argue *for* something for which there is no specific evidence; but there's also no point in arguing *against* it with the virulence which some of these people do.

I don't suppose that without the Dura Europos examples there's any "evidence" for the laminated construction of a curved woooden shield such as the Roman scutum. But having made such a curved shield, I am fairly firm in the belief that it can't be done effectively without lamination--or the use of glue!

I've made leather armor. I've made quilted armor. Neither would look or act like what is being put on in vase paintings. I could accept simple layered linen, but I'm not convinced that would act the right way. What researchers like the ones above have done with glued linen meets the common sense test, does not violate Occam's razor, and acts just like it should.

Allen

Some of the modern bullet proof and stab vests are simply 20 or so layers of heavy nylon fabric inside bags joined together to form a waistcoat. (I worked on them a few years ago). They are not glued together because the slight movement between the layers improves the protection.

I am sure this construction would work quite well in canvas or linen (..and would look like a linothorax)
Mick

A question. We talk about surviving evidence, but wouldn't something made of linen and traditional forms of glue have dissolved back unto the earth-from-whence-we-all-came a very long time ago?

On a scale of potential longevity, it's far lower than a metal object, and (I'd assume) one of treated leather.

After all, there are no surviving lettuces from the 1990s, but I believe they existed. Or any cheese sandwiches from 1985, but I remember eating one.

And let's not forget that "Philip's" armor was recovered from the tomb of a King. At least tht's whose tomb we think it was. That certainly improved it's survivability.
MY guess is that it was made to look like a linen cuirass, much like a Kevlar Tuxedo.

Glue was definately not used. Anybody who has tried to use duct tape to repair a rip in the seat of your piece of s..t car, will tell you that. It breaks down over time and becomes a gooey mess. Not good for sombody standing out there in the middle of July facing an enemy.

In these days of fabric softeners and washers and dryers, it's hard to imagine fabric being other than soft and fluffy. But wash even a cheap thinly woven cotton shirt in the bathtub along with some starch, and you will have an idea of how sturdy tightly woven material can be.

Why Linen Cuirasses?

Because it's cost/effectiveness ratio was deemed valuable.

Lots of folks used textile armor a long time ago; it was certainly better than skin.
-Kle.

Glue was definately not used.

Well, there is glue, and there is glue.
We still act surprised what materials and technology the Ancients had access to. ("Baghdad Battery" anyone?)
We do know that metal armor was not donned by the Greeks until the last minute before battle. No reason why this custom would not continue.

Plywood is made by laminating thin layers of (soft) wood, and it is laminated with glue. I have left unpainted plywood out in my back yard for years now, in the Pennsylvania weather, which can run from 100F and 99% humidity to -26F. It has been rained on, has had 30" of snow slowly melt on top of it, been exposed to the sun, and so on. These pieces are still pretty tough.

I am not conmvinced that glue was not used.

Depends on the glue used. hide glue breaks down when it gets wet.

Linseed oil makes a decent adhesive, too, and doesn't break down in water. Ever tried to wash out pine pitch from your clothes or your hands?

Hi

Yup, no surviving linen, but then there are no surviving leather armors that LOOK like the linen being donned in that art work.

There is a concept in my circles of archeology that speculation is fine, but sometimes putting hands on the material educates you as to what is plausable. The ancients didn't do much in depth discussion on knapping flint or casting bronze arrow heads, nor did they discuss the spine of arrows and a number of other basic concepts. But we moderns have leared how to knap flint and cast heads that sure look like the remains.

Or as Allan points out, guys have just done it. The quibbles about it "cannot be done or won't work" don't stand up. They made the stuff and it works. So, it is at least plausable. The "it must have been…." hasn't proved plausable.

As for "so good". One piece helmets are superior to composite assemblies where bits can come up at the wrong time. But Spangenhelms supplant the real thing…from cost.

Rocky

others just go ahead and do it…

That would be Nike, surely?

"fine linen is a sign of good breading"
Only if you deep fry it!

I've sometimes suspected that the linothorax might be a composite armour. With the linnen on the outside covering other material that might account for the rigidity.

A lot of descriptive names say what something looks like, not what it actually is.

But then it's my $0.02 USD based on my limited knowledge of the subject.

I am not sold on the linothorax concept since I have not been able to locate the term in any primary source or even in word searches that I have conducted in a variety of databases. If anyone DOES know where this term appears in Greek sources I would greatly appreciate it.

I do believe that fabric armors were used but my inclination is that these were felt (the pilos mentioned in Thucydides ?)rather than linen. We do know that caps were used in the 5th century made of this material so there is a fair possiblility that it was used for armor as well.

We did some testing with felt material that I bought to make this type of armor (which I have not finished yet). The felt that I purchased is around 7-8mm thick. When we glued two layers together (using a simple fabric glue for the test), we found that it was viry difficult to pierce it with a spear, sword, or knife. What happened is that the outer layer would be pierced and would absorb much of the impact while hitting the second layer and pushing into it. More testing needs to be done with it with arrows etc.

I know there is no evidence for it, but the way the shoulder-pieces stand up on the Vases makes me absolutely certain that the Armour was made of Glued Layers. Either that or the Ancient Greeks had plastic.

Pat

"I know there is no evidence for it, but the way the shoulder-pieces stand up on the Vases makes me absolutely certain that the Armour was made of Glued Layers."

That is something I have considered as well but I tend to think that it may be artistic convention to show partially armed hoplites. One of the things with glue is that if it is stiff enough to make the shoulder pieces stand up then it tends to break or crack when they are tied down. If you have a flexible glue then they do not tend to stand up like that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linothorax

This has been claimed to be a Linothorax but it looks like scale armour to me

fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linothorax

This looks like vertical panels, so could be quilting or metal (or leather) plates inside fabric.

Midpiont is right, Samurai chest armour looks a lot like what is shown on Green art

Just because you can create something using the materials available doesn't mean that you will get it right.

If you knew that the Mosquito aircraft was made of wood and you tried to recreate it just based on art to the standard of the Greek vase, would you get it right?

If you knew that the Mosquito aircraft was made of wood and you tried to recreate it just based on art to the standard of the Greek vase, would you get it right?

More or less. You know from other sources what kinds of materials were used, and the physical laws that you have to follow. It may not look exactly like a real Mossie, but it would fly if you built it right.

Talk to the guy who built an inswinger ballista based on about 6 pieces of metal, that throws a 0.75kg bolt at over 100m/s; the guys who built a bridge the way the Romans did across the Rhine, or the guys who are trying to figure out how they raised the Pyramids. Experimental archaeology is an interesting field of study. One that I might pick up when I retire in 30 years!

Just my point, if you used other sources you may think it was a wooden frame with canvas covering, as was standard at the time for wooden aircraft.
The Mosquito used a pioneering Monocoque structure.

The reconstruction may be twin engined and may fly well – but is not a reconstruction of a Mosquito!

Just because we have constructed something and it works does not make it a reconstruction of an ancient artefact.

For those seeking additional information, here are some more relevant (and lengthy) threads from the Roman Army Talk discussion group:
link
link
link
link

And here are even more web sites addressing reconstructions:
link
4hoplites.com/Linothorax.htm

Khairete,
Scott

Hi

The mossie did not pioneer monocoque construction.

R

Well, you'd know what the described performance of the craft was, and quickly figure out that unsupported fabric wouldn't survive (first full-power flight test), therefore the skin would have to be something other than plain doped fabric. Then you'd have to figure out what the 'ancients' could have used to get the claimed performance, based on their known technological abilities and building style.

link

I will wait for this to come out in print.
JJ

Hey, how about that: armor made from linen, glued together with flax-seed oil… Isn't flax-seed oil usually referred to as linseed oil?

Like I said, experimental archaeology is what I plan on doing when I retire in a few decades.

I see no new evidence there at all – just an article collating the various forms of visual and written evidence already known – still nothing that says the Greeks used armour made from Linen Glued together rather than quilted.

Pat

link

I will wait for the professor's actual archeological paper to come out in print.
JJ