"SMG's in the BEF?" Topic

Is there any evidence regarding the use or non-use of SMG's by the BEF?

The Rifle Company – each of the four Rifle Companies in the Battalion included a small HQ element commanding three Rifle Platoons.

The Rifle Section of the 1940 campaign was eight men strong, and consisted of a Section commander, either a Corporal or Lance-corporal, and seven men, each man armed with a rifle. The British Army began the Second World War using much the same rifle it had concluded the First World War with. The Lee-Enfield Mk III was a bolt action weapon with a ten round internal magazine that proved both reliable and accurate. Two men in each Section acted as gunner and loader for the Section's single Bren light machine gun. The Bren was derived from the Czech ZB26 and began to enter service in 1938, replacing the previous Lewis gun, another Great War veteran. The adoption of the Bren would prove to be an inspired choice. Three such Sections served under a Platoon HQ, which differed slightly dependent upon whether the Platoon was commanded by an Officer or an NCO.

HQ for the first Platoon in each Company included an Officer armed with a pistol. He was aided by a Platoon Sergeant, batman, orderly with bicycle and a two man team for the Platoon's 2-inch mortar. All these men carried rifles, as was the driver attached from the Admin Platoon for the Platoon's 15-cwt truck, which carried equipment and the Platoon anti-tank rifle. The second and third Platoons in each Rifle Company were commanded by Platoon Sergeant Majors rather than commissioned officers. The Platoon Sergeant Majors were equipped as officers, but had no batman so their Platoons were twenty-nine strong as opposed to thirty, excluding the attached driver.

Company HQ included the commander, a Major or Captain, and his second-in-command, along with batmen and orderlies, and added both an 8-cwt truck and a 15-cwt truck to the Company transport. Throughout the war, every Rifle Company HQ included both a Company Sergeant Major and a Company Quartermaster Sergeant, the latter responsible for messing facilities.

The Sten Gun was not introduced until late 1941. Probably the only SMGs that would have been available would have been the Thompson.

If I recall correctly, Thompsons didn't arrive in the line infantry until after the campaign in France. A few here and there are possible during the campaign, but it was far from standard issue.

The BF BEF NCO w/Thompson is a lovely figure, though, and I have no problem using them to fight the Hun in La Belle France.

The earliest pics I have seen of British soldiers were from about Nov of 1940. Nothing earlier. Robert

Thanks for the answers.

Mserafin you must have read my mind. I am doing head swaps on BF figures to make Scots. I will probably go ahead with the figure with the Thompson and file it under artistic license.

Is there any evidence regarding the use or non-use of SMG's by the BEF?

Only in Commando Comics.

Cheers
Mark

The French ordered 3000 Thompsons in November 1939, the British started ordering them in February 1940.

None of the guns had arriveed before France fell, total British orders in 1940 were around 100,000 guns then 300,000 in 1941.

British 'Tommy guns' were non existent during the 1940 campaign. I have read of Belgian Infantry having SMG's and when they declared an armistice, a couple of British soldiers talked some Belgians into handing them over to them. But lack of ammo meant they eventually threw them away.

That would have to be one of the ONLY two occasions I know of where the British had SMG's and that was during the battle around Dieppe.

The other was an Officer who had a Thompson sent to him by an American relation during the Winter 1939-40. If I remember correctly, he lent it to another officer going on a patrol near the German border…He was wounded and lost it in a skirmish.

So they must have been very rare, because I've read a lot on the 1940 campaign and those two stories have stuck in my mind as so exceptional.

Would the Tommy Gun have used ammo compatible with other small arms used by the BEF?

The Tommy would have been .45 ACP so no, not compatible at all with the .38 Webley service pistol round or anything else for that matter.

On Scots I hear BEF Miniatures are waiting for theirs from their caster.

Guy

The Tommy would have been .45 ACP so no, not compatible at all with the .38 Webley service pistol round or anything else for that matter.

I'd bet that is exactly why the two Tommy's threw the Belgian ones away.
With the officer who had one sent as a gift, I reckon he'd have had to be really careful not to run out of ammunition!
Hence I doubt it would have made much impact on the patrols he took it on!!!!

Was there no use of the BSA Co Ltd. developed modification of the Thompson Submachine gun in 1926 in calibre 9x20 mm

According to Liliane and Fred Funcken, the French had a sub-machinegun/machine pistol, model 1938. I don't know if the British used any.