"Did I go to far........" Topic

It looks like I am more then likely going to get kicked off Steve Jackson forums So I ask you did I go to far?

Here was my first post.
It was about Ogre being re-issued as a 6th edition.

I am not impressed, look what Steve Jackson did with Car Wars.

He wanted to sell us one basic game in split up into five different books. I dare say if Car Wars were popular it would have a 1000 supplements.

It seems like Steve is just trying to squeeze out every dime out of his loyal customers.

Don't get me wrong; I like some of the stuff he produces. Car Wars, Ogre, Revolution, Illuminati, I can even stand Munchkin.

I just don't want to buy 100 different products for what was sold as one game 10 years ago.

Then Rev. Pee Kitty
Assistant GURPS Line Editor
Responded…

"Originally Posted by Inari7 I am not impressed, look what Steve Jackson did with Car Wars."

He released them on chipboard?

More seriously, is it really necessary to turn an Ogre discussion into another opportunity to bemoan the fate of Car Wars? I understand that you're unhappy about Car Wars being pushed to the wayside. (It's pretty much the topic you post about. I get that.) But the Ogre fans have been waiting for a revival far longer as you have -- it seems rather unsporting to try raining on their good news here.

"He wanted to sell us one basic game in split up into five different books. I dare say if Car Wars were popular it would have a 1000 supplements."

Absolutely! Well, probably more like "dozens of supplements". Is that a bad thing? I'm pretty sure that having access to tons and tons of one's favorite game is pretty cool -- the Munchkin fans (including myself) rather love all the flavors and neat expansions.

Honestly, it really doesn't seem right to complain simultaneously that (A) your favorite game isn't in print and available, but (B) that if it was, the company would probably focus too much on it and release too many supplements for it! I mean, I understand the concept of "too much of a good thing", but I've got to stick with the ol' SubGenius motto: "Too much is always better than not enough!" :)

"It seems like Steve is just trying to squeeze out every dime out of his loyal customers.
Don't know about "every dime", but yes, the company is actively involved in squeezing dimes out of customers. That is how a company remains in business, after all. No profit means no SJ Games means no Car Wars, no Ogre, no Munchkin, no GURPS, etc."

"I just don't want to buy 100 different products for what was sold as one game 10 years ago. "
And here's where I'm super-confused.

Now, I'm not the biggest Ogre fan. Okay, I've never even played the game. But here's how I understand it. Ogre Miniatures was originally a box that came with a whole bunch of minis, some maps, and some rules. Later on, there was an expansion that added Shockwave rules. If the minis weren't enough for you, the W23 site and some FLGS sold extra minis. You could buy a never-ending supply of them and use them to beef up your battles. So, it seems like "expansions" were part of Ogre Minis since Day One -- just like every other miniature game.

Or . . . is even that sentence actually aimed at Car Wars?
__________________
Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian

Then I responded to Rev. Pee Kitty

I am not bemoaning the death of Car Wars. Thank god it died the death it did.

I am complaining about what Steve Jackson did to the great games when he re-imagined them.

I am complaining about the fact that when car wars was re-released then took the basic game and divided it into 5 different books, and no book to make your own vehicles. So they produced a game that did not have all the material that was in the original basic game. (in five separate expensive parts)

Before car wars they made illuminati into a collectable card game. A great basic fun game expanded into a horrible overblown broken ccg.

"it really doesn't seem right to complain simultaneously that (A) your favorite game isn't in print and available, but (B) that if it was, the company would probably focus too much on it and release too many supplements for it!"

I am not complaining about CW being out of print, or that they would make too many supplements for it.

I am complaining about making too many supplements for an incomplete game.
To get the game you need to buy all the supplements THAT is my main complaint.
If I bought Illuminati CCG or the re-released CW I would not have the complete game unless I bought all the supplements and or booster packs.

I could also complain about the fact that even if I did invest my time and money into cw or Illum. That the games could be discontinued without ever giving me a complete game.

I love OGRE I own almost all products, and a bucket load of the miniatures. I would love to see a new version. BUT I have also witnessed what has happened with all the other re-releases of past products and I have not been impressed.

I just don't want SJ to mess up one of my all time favorite games.

Then Andrew responded to me….

Andrew Hackard
Super-Duper-Über Munchkin

"Originally Posted by Inari7 Before car wars they made illuminati into a collectable card game. A great basic fun game expanded into a horrible overblown broken ccg."

Whatever your opinion of INWO, it's a fact that Illuminati itself is still in print, so on this point, you are mistaken.

In any case, your comments, insofar as they are not about Ogre, are off-topic for this forum. If you'd like to discuss Car Wars, there's a forum specifically for that; if you want to discuss other games, there are Card Games and Board Games forums where you may bloviate at your leisure. But please stop doing so here.

So Andrew after posting this deleted my below last comment.

TWICE BTW I posted again thinking I did not hit the "enter" button

"Whatever your opinion of INWO, it's a fact that Illuminati itself is still in print, so on this point, you are mistaken.

In any case, your comments, insofar as they are not about Ogre, are off-topic for this forum."

I was not complaining about Illuminati being out of print. (please read post again)

I am sorry you don't like criticism on your own boards.

But my post was about OGRE

I want you (more Steve Jackson then you) to hear that some of us have been burned in the past, and I don't want to get burned again.

I just did not want to have what has happen to my favorite games in the not so distant past happen to OGRE.

RANT OFF

This was my last post on the subject.

I promise to be a good boy for now on………..

So I guess I went too far, in their opinion should I have been censored?

Did I go too far?

Will Steve let me buy his products again?

Sorry to post this here but I do want unbiased opinions.

If I was OUT OF LINE I will apologize the SJ board moderators.

What does the TMP body think?

You're a bad boy. For penance 50 hail marys and 4 beers of your choice.

Naw, I don't think you went too far.

Wait, using the Ogre boards to bemoan the death of Car Wars? Usually, we were using the other boards to bemoan the death of Ogre…

Axiom #1: You can do or say any damn thing you please so long as you are willing to take the consequences.

Corrolary: if you can't handle the consequences, then don't say/do it.

Axiom #2: If, after saying or doing something, you think the consequences are going to be too much to bear, then you should probably be making amends immediately.

Corrolary: If you start getting a sinking feeling after saying/doing something, it is pretty certain that you ed up. And when you have to solicit validation from an open forum of total strangers, it is now definite.

And for all that, I'd have probably said pretty much what you did.

No, and after seeing this page:

sjgames.com/ill/a/2010-03-16

I'm really worried about the future of Ogre. I was hoping for nice miniatures with the new Ogre. The picture there, though a 'prototype,' looks like the crappy punch out miniatures like those Pirate things. I hope that isn't the direction they go.

Also what does 'both in scale and weight' mean. Hopefully more stuff in the box and bigger battles and not a different scale for the miniatures.

I own the mini game for ogre, gev and shockwave. Really love those!

I owned Car Wars deluxe. What a flaming pile of poo.

I have no problem with SJ Games. Some of your concerns are fine and not over the top. You do come across a bit pedantic and OT though in your posts though I don't think the other poster read them well either.

Personally I don't care what SJG or any other company does. Doesn't bother me in the least. The game(s) are theirs to screw up or not as they see fit. They do well, I buy. They don't I won't.

And you brought the argument to here why exactly ?

I've got all the ogre I need -2 versions of board game, GEV, the expansion pack (overrun?) the infantry only game on the dotty board, the miniature rules, some miniatures, GURPS OGRE. Don't really think it needs another reissue in a hurry. In any case, OGRE and it's world got expanded bit by bit originally (add on games, space gamer new rules, new scenarios, etc) so what's the problem with a return to the original format ?

Wasn't car wars originaly a basic set with endless add ons, back in, what, late 1980's ?

What do I think? I think dragging aggro from one forum on to another one is bad form. Something that members with a knowledge of TMP history ought to realise does nobody any good.

As always my friend Plynkes you are the voice of reason.

All I know is the cardboard Ogres look crappy compared to the minis, I won't be getting those.

Jake

"And you brought the argument to here why exactly ?"

Perhaps you and Plynkes are right I did not need to get an opinion from you two or the other TMP ers

BUT

I just wanted to know if I went to far…..

When you are posting on the cyber boards sometimes you don't realize how you sound.

I just wanted more unbiased eyes to let me know if I was out of line.

"Wasn't car wars originaly a basic set with endless add ons, back in, what, late 1980's ?"

yea,,, but
I am complaining about the fact that when car wars was re-released then took the basic game and divided it into 5 different books, and no book to make your own vehicles. So they produced a game that did not have all the material that was in the original basic game. (in five separate expensive parts)

Well, you were expressing a concern, but your first post does sound as if you were complaining about Car Wars; you didn't make a clear connection to Ogre and what your concerns were. Yes, a reader can infer it, but not all readers will (and they didn't).

I will say there was a bit more vinegar in the mix than needed to be in there, plus a lot of assumptions. Your starting post could be read as an accusation— that SJG will mishandle the Ogre re-release— rather than merely a concern. You also compounded the problem by attributing negative motive and almost malice to the company ("squeeze out every dime"). And while your concerns were based on your distaste as to how other games were handled, you didn't begin with examples of actual problems pertaining to Ogre. Had you started with questions about Ogre that addressed your concerns ("Will this be a complete game, or will it be divided as supplements in the manner of Car Wars?") without being accusatory, you might have fared better.

Am I correct in assuming that the thread was started as an announcement about the planned re-release? If so, your post could be read in the same manner as the following exchange: "I've got a present for your birthday!" "I hope it's not another lousy sweater like you gave me ten years ago." That seems to be how they're seeing your posts.

Really, all in all, you started off on completely the wrong foot. So your mea culpa of stating that you love Ogre, Illuminati, etc., comes across as too little, too late.

While I agree that your concerns may be valid, yes, you did mishandle the approach. So, no, I wouldn't be surprised if they booted your comments. It's their site, after all.

(As an aside, oddly enough, they're wrong about the progression of the Ogre game. It began as a complete chit-and-map pocket game. The supplements came later, and the minis much later. I would have thought they'd have known that, but maybe not.)

actually the new version of CW was 13 books in total not just 5.

And yes you raised valid points, SJ is getting a bit tunnel visioned in his old age. Its his way or the high way….

You stated your position, they answered your position.

You didn't feel sufficiently validated by their response, so you continued to state your position.

Then they exercised their right to moderate their own forum by not letting you continue to state the same objection over and over, etc.

There was no need for you to continue beyond your original post.

What did you expect, Steve Jackson to hop on and grovel/placate/promise free copies?

Your objection was given all the attention and weight it merits.

If they ban you, good for them. If not, what difference does it make?

You're not planning to buy the game anyway, with your "I am not impressed" and "squeezing every dime" talk, right? So they have no need or interest in placating disgruntled grognards who bought a copy thirty years ago and who are just complaining on their forums about how things used to be.

Birds gotta fly, dogs gotta run, games companies gotta publish… if something brings in the pennies they'll keep on churning out stuff for it.
Your questions/worries seem valid and not over the top at all… but it's their website… and yeah, probably there's no good to come out of beating the cat over here.

Personally I wish they'd get back to putting out more GURPS books… but I know Munchkin is their bread n' butter… silly Discordians.

Parzival Thanks for that in depth review.

Yea, I guess I did start out on the wrong foot.
So sent the moderator an apology.
Well sort of :)

Thanks guys……………..Doug

(As an aside, oddly enough, they're wrong about the progression of the Ogre game. It began as a complete chit-and-map pocket game. The supplements came later, and the minis much later. I would have thought they'd have known that, but maybe not.)

That is indeed very odd – even odder that the moderator has never played OGRE ! That's got to be one of the most icconic board games/miniature games of all wargames history. And the SJ games guy hasn't played it and seems vague on the background.

I think the complaints were valid. I've been disappointed for years by what SJG puts out.

I'm really worried about the future of Ogre. I was hoping for nice miniatures with the new Ogre. The picture there, though a 'prototype,' looks like the crappy punch out miniatures like those Pirate things. I hope that isn't the direction they go.

OTOH I know a bunch of people who will be really excited about this. While I have no interest in pushing around cardboard punch-out Ogres (I'd rather have simple counters if that is how you're going to do it), we here on the TMP do not represent the whole (or even possibly the core) of the Ogre audience that SJG is targeting. It's like Battletech: every time the subject of minis (or not) in the game comes up, you'll invariably have the crew that comments "I use beer caps with a little piece of paper that says "atlas" glued on with chewing gum!" The point here is that the game is in essence a board game for which minis can supplement the experience, not be the main point (unlike full-fledged miniatures wargames).

I'm sure there are loads of the gaming community hopping up and down at the idea that they can play the game without investing a ton of money into metal (or -- dare one hope -- plastic) minis.

Damon.

I should also add that cardboard punch-out Ogres does not preclude the existence of supplemental metal minis at a later date (or at launch for that matter); just like the original editions of Battletech, the cardboard cutouts will get you going right now, but there may be an option to upgrade at some point. Frankly, I'd only be disappointed if the old minis line goes OOP.

Damon.

Personally, I'd like to see a PDF of the complete run of Space Gamer. Also, SJ should republish Triplanetary, as he was thinking of doing sometime around 2000, IIRC.

Personally, I'd like to see a PDF of the complete run of Space Gamer

Yes ! That is needed !

Quote: No, and after seeing this page:
sjgames.com/ill/a/2010-03-16

Nice map, crappy looking model, good job I have a couple of Ogre models from before.

Don't own any SJ stuff. So I have no dog in this fight. First amemdment right. For both sides. Dish it out. Take it. It works both ways. But, if you're a good person, and say something, later feel wrong(?) about it, probably a good idea to apologise. Just my 2c.

Stopped buying SJ games stuff alooooong time ago after the Car Wars fiasco. If you like the stuff, buy it. If not, don't.

As for slagging the product on their own forum I guess you will be banned.

It's not right but no producer is going to pay for some one to speak the truth and kick 'em in the .

First amemdment right. For both sides.

Nope. The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution has nothing to do with it. That just means that the U.S. government can't stop either side from expressing their opinion. It doesn't mean that SJG has to allow anything to be said on their site, or allow anyone to say it. Whether they leave Inari7's comments up or not, or ban him from the site, is entirely up to SGJ. One hopes at least they will consider what he has to say… but I doubt it.

I think you crossed a line and you know it. Now you want exoneration from the hoi polloi. YMMV.