"Light guns against heavies." Topic

When you had from one side of a battlegame a number of 3pdr, 4pdr or 6 pdr and in front of them you had 12 pdr, how did you cross they fire?

I understand that the little guns had to fire much more closely that the heavies, but what about the fire damaged?

Even on Infantry or Cavalry, did you consider the damaged of a 12pdr to the enemy line equal to those lights?

To dismount a cannon, had the lights the same oportunities (shock of the ball)of doing that than the most heavy guns?.

The 9pdr can be matched with the 12pdrs as equals?

Can be used heavy siege guns in a battlegame on open field?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Amicalement
Armand

I think you are talking about knocking out of guns from cannon balls here. i.e. smashing them with the velocity or momentum of the ball?

We do this and do rate guns either light, medium or heavy for such purposes with each size given a percentage chance of destroying an enemy gum per gunner figure taken out. This equates to around 10% – 20% – 30% from memory per gunner figure gone.

Warning though, it means you have to record the losses and this puts people off who prefer simplicity.

Shane

My own guess would be that the lighter guns' lack of hitting power would be somewhat offset by higher rate of fire.

However, Mercer's memoir of Waterloo completely refutes this. He notes that at one point, he opened up with his 9-pounders on a French battery that was annoying him and was dominating it completely – so much so that he took it for a 4-pounder battery. As there were no French 4-pounders at Waterloo he must have been dominating 6-pounders with his 9-pounders.

Unfortunately for Mercer, somebody heavier still then opened up him and did to him what he'd been doing to the 6-pounders. He ceased fire and so did they.

From this I conclude that big guns can boss around small guns.

In the ACW period, it is probably more an issue of "range" instead of poundage, i.e. a rifled artillery piece would have more range than a smoothbore Napoleon. I just happened to be reading about the Federal assault on Marye's Heights at Fredericksburg. The book cited some examples of Union smooth bore batteries moving up to the edge of town to provide artillery support, but they got pounded by the Confederate rifled guns (3" Rodmans) positioned on the heights. Eventually the Union batteries cited in this example had to retire because they couldn't effectively counterbattery with the CSA guns.

Aye, it would be a combination of:

Range in relation to accuracy which is related to poundage and so on. Then on top of that you can also add in gunlayer skill as well. I distinctly remember reading instances where batteries intentionally aimed at individual enemy guns and picked them off one by one. I know someone will be able to cite that…

Shane

Overall, heavier guns (weight of shot, not gun weight) would be more effective, but most of that would be due to the use of cannister/shrapnel, not ball. Though there would be some difference in ball too, I just don't think it would be significant.

I've got a book somewhere that compares cannister of different guns and how many balls were in it, but I can't find it right now. I would imagine that shrapnel rounds would have the same proportionate difference.

Round iron ball vs round iron ball, the heavier ball would have (given the same velocity) more energy and momentum, but that would really come into play with regards to penetration (or how many bodies it could go through)--which would have limited impact if used against infantry in line (unless in enfilade, of course).

Rob

The lighter calibers had a higher sustained rate of fire that the 12-pounders did (two rounds per minute vice one round per minute)

If counterbattery fire had to be conducted, and the French, Austrians, and British discouraged it for it took a long time and expended an inordinate amount of ammunition, it was considered by the French better to use the lighter calibers for the higher rate of fire.

The method the French used was to concentrate all available pieces on the offending enemy battery one piece at a time, knock it out of action, and then move down the gunline to the next piece, and so on.

Sincerely,
K

Another consideration in counterbattery fire : you don't necessarily have to damage the gun tube itself, damaging the carriage (destroying a wheel for example) is just as effective and quite achievable for even small roundshot.

I've been of the smaller guns/higher rate of fire equals out school but I just read something in the Reader's Companion to Military History that says basic physics is a heavier object moving at same speed has way more kinetic energy.

I was never any good at physics so I'll take their word for it. Perhaps that's why Mercer ceased fire when the 12lb shot whizzed overhead. Or maybe it was just the sound.

bigger guns needed more horses, more ammunition carts -were more expensive, less mobile.

Napoleon did think that a 6 pdr gun was suitable for most tasks on the battle – field but one would need also some 12 pdr guns for special tasks, like firing on field fortification or at long ranges.

12pndrs also had a greater effect on enemy morale also

During SYW, regimental 3pdr guns were used more to disrupt cavalry charges than to kill infantry men.
The purpose of these guns was merely to fire much more bullets on a large target (horses) than the muskets line or, even, the heavy guns.

During napoleonic period, in infantry batallions squares against cavalry, these regimental guns were situated in teh corners, the most critical point of the square when cavalry attacked…

Dear Armand
Counter battery fire was very inefficient at this time and as has already been stated dicouraged at long range due to poor accuracy.

The assuming the calibre length remains the same, the larger the weight of shot gives a longer range to the first strike. Therefore a 12-pdr of 18 calibres would be able to dominate a 6-pdr of 18 calibres for range.

The effect of a 3-pdr or 12-pdr ball strike a man or horse is the same. It is the penetration after striking them. Against hard targets then the 12-pdr would be by far the preferred weapon. Against villages then howitzers and unicorns would be effective using common shell or carcass (incendiary ammunition).

Howitzers and 12-pdrs fire slower than the 3-pdr to 6-pdr. Less ammunition can be carried per caisson. Hence the sheer expense of the 12-pdr batteries with more horses and men required. This was a consideration when Napoleon adopted the superb AnXI 5.5in howitzer over the Gribeauval 6.4in howitzer. The former having almost twice the calibre length had better accuracy and almost the same range. Almost twice as many shell could be carried then the 6.4in howitzer.

Remember that artillery ranges were less than 1000m influenced by the ground, line of sight and accuracy of the weapons. Various instructions including those of Kutaissov (1812) discourage fire beyond effective range. Richochet would carry the ball to over 2500m but hitting what you aimed at was more a lottery. Here it was resorted to deny the opponent ground rather than do serious damage.

Alas much of the writing in the modern period has been tinged with understandings from WWI and WWII let alone modern ordnance. The ability and precision of fire would not have been dreamed of in the 18th-19th centuries. Remember that about 200 rounds would be the allocation per gun and this was expected to last for much of a campaign. If you assume that you are firing at 2 rounds per minute, this would only give you 100 minutes of firing and battles could last two days. The Bavarians at Hanau ran out of ammunition and we know the consequences of that. Not helped that their 6-pdrs and howitzers were not the same calibre as their allies the Austrians.

Stephen

Since this was in the ACW board, one observation that I will make is that the smaller size guns that were (relatively) popular early in the war were not considered competitive when the opposition had 12 pdrs, which did become standard field pieces – the Army of Northern Virginia, for example, used some of the smaller batteries for things like holding fords, bridges, etc because they were not thought appropriate for the main line of batle

<<However, Mercer's memoir of Waterloo completely refutes this. He notes that at one point, he opened up with his 9-pounders on a French battery that was annoying him and was dominating it completely – so much so that he took it for a 4-pounder battery. As there were no French 4-pounders at Waterloo he must have been dominating 6-pounders with his 9-pounders.>>

Was he using roundshot or shrapnel? This would have been more effective as a counter-battery weapon via putting the gunners and horses out of action (at the crossing of the Douro a British shrapnel round took out an entire gun crew and team).

<<Unfortunately for Mercer, somebody heavier still then opened up him and did to him what he'd been doing to the 6-pounders. He ceased fire and so did they.>>

He was actually enfiladed by a Prussian battery – which had the cheek to send a messenger over, whilst still firing at him, to tell him to stop firing at them!

He was actually enfiladed by a Prussian battery – which had the cheek to send a messenger over, whilst still firing at him, to tell him to stop firing at them!

And it's events like that which seem to make the H&M era so amusing to game at the RP or skirmish level…

Mercer was fired on by Prussians at the end of the day. Earlier, he engaged Pire's horse battery and drew the fire of Reille's 12 pound battery, convincing him to obey the Duke's order against counter-battery fire.

Further, the Prussians did not send a courier. Mercer convinced a Dutch battery to enfilade the Prussians, who then withdrew.

Mercer could not retire because his limbers and horses were wrecked.

In the ACW anything smaller than a 6-pdr was very rare. Getting hit by a solid shot from anything that large would almost surely cause enough damage to any gun to put it out of commission. The advantage a 12-pdr would have over a 6-pdr, in that regard, would be its greater range.

However, when it comes to shell and shrapnel, which ACW guns could also fire, the larger gun fired a larger shell with a large charge of powder and/or more shrapnel balls, making it more dangerous.

<<Mercer was fired on by Prussians at the end of the day. Earlier, he engaged Pire's horse battery and drew the fire of Reille's 12 pound battery, convincing him to obey the Duke's order against counter-battery fire.>>

Ah, yes; my mistake in confusing the two.

<<Further, the Prussians did not send a courier.>>

No, on this one I definitely recall reading that an orderly – possibly German – rode up and told him he was firing on his friends, the Prussians, at which he pointed out that they were firing on him, and when they stopped so would he.

Yes, that did indeed happen, but Mercer had no idea who this character was, and even thought he might be French!

You have to wonder what on earth that Prussian battery thought it was doing. How could a battery facing and firing south be anything other than Allied??!

Considering the smoke, confusion and failing light, the only surprise is that there wasn't more friendly fire. Zieten's advanced guard broke Saxe-Weimar's Nassau troops before routing D'Erlon's flank. As the two armies converged amid the dissolving French position a Prussian cavalry regiment had a fight with a British one.

It is a hazard when two armies converge at right angles at dusk.

Vstaogames

Sir where did you read about the british and Purssian cavalry regiments fighting? I nevery read that anywhere and all the British regiments are accounted for. Did this happen in the pursuit of the Garde fall back??

Which units sir please?

Lord Ghee

Another consideration in counterbattery fire : you don't necessarily have to damage the gun tube itself, damaging the carriage (destroying a wheel for example) is just as effective and quite achievable for even small roundshot.

Which is why batteries list spare carriages in their establishment. There are frames and pulleys for lifting the barrel onto either a new carriage or simply moving from the movement position to the firing position.

Going back to Mercer, he reports the ground being littered with wrecked gun and ammunition carriages.

I think there is another matter to consider, in modern times artillery is lethal and precise and one effect of this is to limit movement and action.
One possible explanation of the experience of Mercer regarding counterbattery fire may be that ceasing fire by the target battery is enough to cause the counter battery fire to cease also. It is accepted as wasteful but will be restarted if the target battery starts to fire again.

The physics of kinetic energy is pretty simple.

Kinetic energy = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity x Velocity

so the KE goes up the same as the Mass. And at the same Velocity (or speed if you will) a 12 pounder has twice the KE as a 6 pounder.

However, the effect of Velocity(speed) is the odd one. The same weight ball at 1500fps has 2.25 times the kinetic energy as a ball going 1000fps- even though it is only going 50% faster.
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Getting hit with either weight at either speed is going to smack through any number of men or horses or damage a gun or carriage about the same. It would make a difference if you were trying to shatter a fortification.
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Where the difference in effectiveness comes about is that the heavier ball carries a further distance than the lighter ball. The air resistance against either a 6 or 12 pound ball is not all that different, (it is mainly propotional to the speed x speed), but how quickly the ball slows down is proportional to the mass. So the 12 pound ball keeps its velocity (and energy as well) to a longer distance, and carries to a further distance without sinking to the ground as much. (It sinks to the ground as quickly in time as the smaller ball – gravity is the same- but goes a further distance before sinking). Therefore it stays in the killing zone much more. Therefore you can hit a point object better because you don't have to be as accurate in the initial elevation of the muzzle. I'm sure this makes it much clearer. (sic)
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Note that effect of Velocity on Kinetic Energy and the effect of Velocity on Range & sinking-of-ball-with-Distance are both "Squared" terms (e.g. Velocity x Velocity). I think many people don't realize that both are operative and that helps them get confused about ballistics.

Of course at short range, cannister is used and 12 pounder holds a lot more little balls than a 6 pounder.

This reminds me of a comment from an old sergeant.

"If you are hit by a 20mm round, or a .303 round…are you any more dead from the bigger one or the smaller one?"

no, but the chance of death sure increases with the 20mm shell…

Depends on where it hits you, I would think.

Avant-- seige artillery should not be used on a battlefield--It is very slow firing and pretty much immobile…So if you lost the battle you would also then probably lose your seige train…Not a good thing to happen!!

When talking about "dominating" you are usually talking about proximity (range).

If a battery of 9pdrs are dominating a battery of 6pdrs this could be for a variety of reasons such as number of guns, skill and experience of the gunners, rate of fire, ground and weather conditions and so on but usually it is more to do with range if all other things are equal.

As for example a 9pdr has more kinetic energy stored up than a 6pdr the shot can travel for longer distances before gravity takes over and the round strikes the earth. Once a ball strikes the earth its accuracy diminishes dramatically. The ricochet of the ball on the ground causes a dramatic loss of accuracy.

So in the case of a 9pdr vs a 6pdr this is effected by range. A 6pdr shot will inevitably hit the ground at a shorter range so if the distance between the two batteries is longer than this then all else being equal the 9pdrs will dominate. The same thing occurs for 9pdrs vs 12pdrs but to a much less degree I think because the difference between a 9pdr vs a 12pdr is much less than a 6pdr vs a 9pdr. So therefore the 12pdr domination of a 9pdr is in a much shorter range bracket IMHO.

"True" Effective ranges of most field guns are supposed to be around 1000yds or so but I think this has a great deal to do with calibre also. I have a rule of thumb I personally use to express my idea of Effective roundshot ranges that is equal to the gun tube's "true" calibre. It is not my interpretation of official recorded ranges, just a guide I use and VERY generalized I admit. When I say true I am talking about the fact that many countries had their own idea of just how heavy a pound is.

12pdr – 1200yds effective range (although seeing the target at this range is very hard)
9pdr – 900yds effective range
8pdr – 800yds effective range
6pdr – 600yds effective range
4pdr – 400yds effective range
3pdr – 300yds effective range

But of course I am no expert, I suspect there are several here who can refute this or prove it better than I can.

Shane

Also there is the morale aspect--if the crew are under fire from counter battery if they are of a lower quality they are less likely to stand in the face of fire and be a bit tardy….Likewise if a crew are really fired up they could fight to the last man…

no, but the chance of death sure increases with the 20mm shell…

Depends on where it hits you, I would think.

Ha ha….you BOTH made the same mistake all we trainee's made.

He said are you ANY MORE DEAD. Which of course, if you are dead, is irrelevant. You can only be dead or not dead.

The point here, is that if a gunner is killed by a 3pdr shot or a 12pdr shot is not of much relevance to him….as he is still dead!

However, when it comes to the size of the shot hitting the cannon itself, I would expect that the larger round would be more likely to wreck the target. But as has been mentioned by someone else, if the shot hit a wheel, for example, almost any ball will break it and thus put the gun out of action.

Personally….I dont think I'd like to be on the receiving end of any roundshot!

I did the maths once (can't find the calcs) and a 12lb ball isn't much larger than a 6 or 9lber, not that size matters, unlike modern guns, as there is no explosion with solid shot (Hollywood not withstanding). Any size ball was capable of taking the heads off a file standing behind each other (which did happen). Even a slowly rolling ball had the energy to remove the foot of the man who tried to stop it.

As long as you are inside the range where the 6lber is capable of killing a file (but leaving those either side untouched) there is no effective difference.

Where the heavier guns score is range, basically inertia keeping the ball from being slowed- it is harder to slow heavy things. Basically you do the same damage, further.

Also note that there are descriptions of men watching the rondshot come towards them- a black dot that grew larger. The officer giving this description refused to duck, as it would set a bad example to the men, and then it took the heads off the file next to him.

re bullets. Pistol bullets are larger than rifle bullets in diameter, and can weigh the same, yet are nowhere near as lethal. From Wiki (you have been warned)

9mm parabellum (selection)
9.5 g (147 gr) JHP 368 m/s energy- 643 J
9.1 g (140 gr) FMJ 305 m/s energy- 419 J

7.62 Nato
9.50g (146.6 gr) 840 m/s energy- 3,352 J

7.62 Soviet
8.0 g (123 gr) Spitzer 710 m/s 2,010 J
10.0g (154 gr) Spitzer SP 641.3 m/s 2,059 J

In regards to 1700 and 1800 artillery firepower, the major consideration for our various rule sets covering those eras is the time frame for one turn.
The time scale determines how much fire down range that a gun can fire. For example if the time scale is 1 turn = 15 minutes, then you have to consider reload time for a firing battery.
Another consideration is the troop scale. Does a gun represent a single gun, two gun section or a full 6 to 10 gun battery.
All affects how much poundage is fired into a target area.
A larger gun takes longer to fire, so in a battery scale or an extended time frame, the amount of 'shot poundage' fired into the target area by a large and a small battery will not vary significantly.

If you are doing a 1 gun represents one gun scale with a short time covered in a turn, then the lighter gun will take fewer turns to prepare for action.

In regards to counterbattery, while the above factors are important, theree should be a greater chance to cause damage to equipment, horse (movement speed and crew for heavier guns than lighter guns.

Range is also a plus for heavier guns as they can reqach further than a light gun, thus affecting a greater amount of ground 'field of fire'.