"'Alternate' vs 'Weird' WW2?" Topic
12 Posts
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abdul666lw | 09 Mar 2010 2:38 a.m. PST |
And on what TMP forum does the former fit best? 'Weird' WW2 generally involve an obvious and essential Sci-Fi / Fantasy component: bipedal warwalkers, individual powered armor, aliens, zombies, werewolves
'Alternate' WW2 are 'what if' deprived of such elements, but featuring: -an imaginary country: e.g. Stirling's Draka link -an imaginary timeline: ° a 'lenghtened' WW2, 'Lufwaffe 46' (& even 'Crimsom Skies'? I'm unfamilar with the setting) fashion: here Patton and Rommel are sometimes allied against the Red Army
° a 'delayed' WW2: on this French Forum link people try to imagine what the majors navies would have looked like if WW2 had erupted only in 1948 [severel references to 'Battlefleet': a commercial game?] (btw this site -in English- is devoted to *historical* WW2 'warships that never were': link ). Similar though experiments can be done regarding the land and air forces: e.g. extrapolating from the experimental uniforms of the Frenchs sent to Narwick and those of the short-lived Vichy army, a paper concluded that, without the war, by 1945 the French infantryman would have looked very like the Commandos d'Afrique when they stormed Toulon: the French tanker / biker helmet of 1939 combined with a more 'modern' uniform -bomber jacket, low gaiters insead of puttees.. Also, France had a few interesting AFV under development in 1940: the ancestor of the EBR, a 'Grant -> Sherman' variant of the B1bis that would have looked very much like a Leman Russ
-Though it's no longer really 'WW2', one cannot exclude, if set in roughly the same timeframe, imaginary conflict involving an Imagi-Nation : e.g. the 'Yellow Empire' (centered on Lhassa but obviously including Japan) that turns world conqueror by the late "40 in the comics 'Le Secret de l'Espadon': link . I suggest that conflicts set in 'alternate' thirties -BCW, the Bordurio-Syldavian hostilities link
- cannot be separated either: -many tanks, planes and warships designs of (early) WW2 dated from the early "30 -if not earlier (large warships are specially long lived, at least *between* wars: an imaginary Interwars Chilean CA link would certainly still be active by the late "40 -if with radras and a better AA); -WW2 -or at least a conflict involving only some of its protagonists- may have erupted a few years earlier
So I'm inclined to consider the whole as a single 'alternate' (but *NOT* 'weird') 1930-1950 timeframe. Then, on what of the TMP forums would such topic fit best, be the least ignored or frowned upon (later we have the H bomb, functional long-ranged ballistic and SAM missiles
) [I know our Venerated Editor does not allow crossposting for nothing, but
]?
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abdul666lw | 09 Mar 2010 3:07 a.m. PST |
'Emperor vs Elector' emperor-elector.blogspot.com is a 'diplomatic' collective blog for rulers of Lace Wars (mid-18th C.) Imagi-Nations TMP link A proposal was recently forwarded link to launch, along similar lines, a collective blog devoted to Interwars imaginary conflicts and countries: I wonder if the timeframe should not be extended as to cover 'alternate' (but NOT 'weird) conflicts and countries of the "40? |
Steve Hazuka | 09 Mar 2010 5:47 a.m. PST |
I thought FoW was alternate WWII. |
Pierce Inverarity | 09 Mar 2010 7:15 a.m. PST |
All alternates are weird. |
cfielitz | 09 Mar 2010 7:21 a.m. PST |
You might want to check out Wesworld: wesworld.jk-clan.de It seems to revolve around Interwar naval buildups among various nations. |
Martin Rapier | 09 Mar 2010 7:27 a.m. PST |
We tend to discuss alternates on the normal WW2 board and all the nazi zombie stuff goes on WWW2. In fact most of the discussions on WW2 seem to be what-ifs at the moment
. |
kabrank | 09 Mar 2010 7:36 a.m. PST |
Sounds like a very interesting idea |
SBminisguy | 09 Mar 2010 9:31 a.m. PST |
I think anything involving made up countries and made up technology, or accelerated technology is "Weird War" -- so the Draka uber-Nazis and Luft 1946 are Weird War, as is the war in 1948 with super battleships the thread author mentioned. AltWar is anything involving "what ifs" based on real events, people and plans. So Harry Turtledove's "Hitler's War" in which the War starts in 1938 with the German invasion of Czechoslovakia (for all that it's a lousy book, btw) is AltWar.
Recent "What if's" books: "Hitler's War" – Turtledove, war starts in 1938 "1945" – Robert Conroy, invasion of Japan after the coup to stop the Emperor from surrendering succeeds "1942" – R. Conroy, Japanese occupation of Hawaii after the 3rd wave of planes destroys the fuel depot, limiting the US' ability to use Pearl Harbor. "Pearl Harbor" – Gingrich/Forstchen, Japanese get the 3rd wave of planes off against Pearl Harbor. Two book series IIRC. Conroy has a new AltWar book out called "Red Inferno" in which early post-War US/Soviet tensions flare into war between them. IIRC there's also the "Fox on the Rhine" series in which Rommel doesn't get injured at Normandy and avoids execution for anti-Hitler plots. While the authors may take the story in their own direction, the stories are based on more or less real events and projection by the author as opposed to new super races and super tech. |
Knight Templar | 09 Mar 2010 1:07 p.m. PST |
I agree with the definition that "weird war" is when wholely imaginative ingredients are introduced. But alternate history is playing "what if?" No random characters. No magic or sci-fi. No madeup stuff just the historical events leading up to the departure. Then follow the logical outcome. |
Volstagg Vanir | 09 Mar 2010 4:23 p.m. PST |
Agreed: If Operation Valkyrie succeds: Its 'Alternate'. If Valkyries fly w/ the Luftwaffen: Its 'Weird'. A substantive difference. Indeed: I too have been exploring the strictly "alternate" (as well as the 'weird', it must be admitted) as a method of truly Understanding History. The Cold War years alone present a plethora of 'What Ifs
" . I'd welcome a forum dedictaed to such (although I'd like to see its scope and mandate as broad as Possible, (eg "What if -Hannibal- had Won
?") but: " I'm In ". On TMP? Honestly, I'd put it all on "Pulp" TMP link or even 'VSF" TMP link (or Both!). The people who frequent those boards are most likely to be Interested, and to provide Feedback of a positive or appreciative nature. Really? It needs its own Board IMO, but that ain 't happenin'
. Not Soon, anyways. Post It, and They Will Come. |
Tim Collins | 10 Mar 2010 5:13 p.m. PST |
Crimson Skies doesn't in either AWWII or WWWII, it's set in the 1930s. |
wminsing | 12 Mar 2010 7:56 a.m. PST |
My definition is that 'Weird War' involves either magic or super-science (or both). So SS wizards, zombies or walkers would make a game 'Weird War'. 'Alternate War' involves scenarios that reasonably could have happened, and equipment that could have entered service but didn't. So American Tank Battalions outfitted with the M6 is alternate, as would Spain entering the Axis. -Will |
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