"Orphan Brigade" Topic

Which flag would the Orphan Brigade Kentucky Confederate soldiers have carried at Shiloh?

Brown bowl, grey porridge, on a blue background, with the motto"Please Sir, Can We Have Some More", in gold underneath the bowl.

Stars and Bars?

I know it would have been blue with a red Christian cross or blue with a white disk in the middle.

Not sure when they adopted Hardee flags -- not as early as Shiloh, I suspect.

Don't know if they still had them at Shiloh, but the Kentucky regiments went into Confederate service in 1860 with a unique flag that looked like the Union regimental flag, a blue background with an eagle and shield in the centre and a red scroll below with the regimental number

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The 5th Kentucky (later the 9th) carried a first national with a cross made of stars in the canton. Seven down, five across. The 2nd Kentucky was also a first national Confederate flag, 42 by 60 inches, with bullion fringe. Same star cross as the 5th, but on the white stripe in 5" gold letters '2nd Kentucky Regiment'. There's no description of the other regiments but it's highly likely they had the same first national with cross pattern. This is from Howard Madaus's "The Battle Flags of the Confederate Army of Tennessee".

Some of the units of the "traditional" orphans were there under Trabue, but I belive the 5th Ky left( only to return after Chickamaugua) the 9th Ky was not in the Brigade nor was the 2nd (according to Battles and Leaders) , nor was the old ally 41st Alabama yet in the fold! Obviously the 2nd ,4th,6th, 9th Ky, 41st Ala, Cobbs Btry was not a total entity yet at Shiloh, but soon would be!

Flags at Shiloh is a tough question for sure, since the Blue Hardees ( I think) were present in Hardees units in some number, but the Ky units were in a seperate "Reserve Outfit" under Breckinridge, a real hodgepodge of units! I agree that the "Hardee style) likely was adopted post Shiloh and then later in early 1864 a variation of the Red Eastern Battleflag.

There might be some mention in the following books

William C Davis classic The Orphan Brigade

Ed Porter Thompson Vol One History of the Orphan Brigade

Johnny Greens Journal

The 5th and the 9th are the same battalion, and they were in the Kentucky Brigade at Shiloh. They called themselves the 5/9th Kentucky. The 2nd wasn't at Shiloh because they were captured at Ft. Donelson, but they probably had the same style flag as the other Kentucky Brigade regiments before as part of Buckner's brigade and did join the Orphan Brigade after they were released later in 1862. The 2nd's flag was captured at Ft. Donelson. I'm really sure of the flag pattern.

Bluebottle

You are likely totally right on this flag issue! I just tend to think of the "Orphans" mostly as a post Shiloh organization, which is mostly right, but not totally either.I am from Lexington, and I love the "Orphans" even though they served on the other side from my ancestors. Also I hate Bragg nearly as much as they did back in the day!! I can't believe NC wouldn't prefer Fort Pettigrew over Fort Bragg!!

For info on the Orphan Brigade's organization, flags, uniforms, etc. check out Geoff Walden's site at:

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Geoff has been researching the Orphans for years now and pretty well covers all the details.

Thank you sir, that just about says it all. Eventully just about everything can be found here if it exists!! So the Orphans got their blue Hardee style as late as after Stones River? Well I would have never thought it was that late, but there it is!

By late 1864,they carried the rectangled version of the regular CSA Battle Flag,(ANV carried Square flags),as most other units in the AOT did. One interesting note is the Orphan Brigade never surrendered their flags,choosing to cut them up and distribute them thru the ranks.

Ryan, that's a good source. Doc, it's funny how so many Kentuckians served with the Union but there's only one Union monument in Kentucky (so I've been told). There are dozens of Confederate monuments.

Bluebottle

I think the decision to support the USA by most in Kentucky, was a combination of some dedication and a lot of practical thinking as to the geography and the attitude of most of their neighbor states! Of course the majority of the larger population centers were in the more Northern areas, and Applachia was mostly neutral (they could do it easier) or pro USA! After the war most CSA folks came back , but usually they did not have to face quite as bad a time of it as the ones in Re construction states! It was also not nearly as bad in Kentucky as it was in Missouri, bad enough, but not Josey Wales/Bloody Bill time!!

After the War, the former Confederates, mostly from the Blue Grass area, soon came to rule the roost in KY, even though the state had been mostly pro-Union during the War.

One of my maternal great-grandfathers, from Crittenden Cty. in Western KY (Marion is the Cty. seat), was in the Union army (pvt. in the 20th KY, later 1st Lt. in the 48th KY). My paternal grandfather, from neighboring Caldwell Cty.(Princeton is the Cty. seat), had "Grant" as a middle name, being born in 1868, the year Grant was elected president. I believe family and friends knew him as "Grant Lowry" all of his life. Of course, my father and uncles just referred to him as "Pa." He died before I was born.

Hi to all,

I stumbled upon this forum from a Google search for "Orphan Brigade." Very interesting postings!

It is difficult to say for certain, what type(s) of flags the units in the Kentucky Brigade CSA flew at Shiloh. We can say almost certainly that they did NOT fly the large dark blue flags with red upright crosses – these most likely were issued to Breckinridge's "Reserve Corps" at Corinth ca. May 1862 (after Shiloh).

The 6th Ky. Inf. was given a First National flag while passing through Alabama on the way to Shiloh, and it would seem likely that they flew this flag at Shiloh.

For the other regiments, the First National pattern would seem most likely (as noted above, Co. B of the 5th/9th Ky. Inf. had a First National marked "CG" for Citizens Guard). Co. C of the 2nd Ky. Inf. had a First National flag marked "KENTUCKY SHALL BE FREE" at Fort Donelson.

"The 2nd Kentucky was also a first national Confederate flag, 42 by 60 inches, with bullion fringe. Same star cross as the 5th, but on the white stripe in 5" gold letters '2nd Kentucky Regiment'." This flag actually has 11 stars in a circle, and it was not carried by the 2nd Ky. until late in 1862 or early in 1863 (it originally belonged to the 1st Ky. Inf.).

Based on these flags, the First National seems most likely, … BUT … several units (if not most) under Buckner at Fort Donelson had early Hardee flags, that had been made at Bowling Green. There is no surviving evidence that the Orphan Brigade units had any of these earliest Hardee flags, but they *were* Buckner's old brigade, and if other units under Buckner got these flags at Bowling Green, why not the Kentucky regiments? We just don't have any evidence to say that they did (and we *do* have evidence to show that they had First National flags during this period).

Regards,

Geoff Walden

Enfield

Good post For wargaming purposes each person will just have to make a choice that suits him for flag styles I liked the blue Hardees but that was just me!