trailape | 04 Feb 2010 6:21 p.m. PST |
Hi Guys Can someone help me with the following? 1. How many Company's were in a French Battalion of the AWI? 2. I know the Battlion consisted of Grenadier, Fusilier and Chasseur Companys, but did the Grenadiers and Chasseur form seperate "Combined Grenadier" or "Combined Light" Battalions? Any help is appreciated. Cheers |
aecurtis | 04 Feb 2010 7:32 p.m. PST |
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trailape | 04 Feb 2010 7:39 p.m. PST |
Hi Aecurtis Thanks for the link. Very useful! Now I know what PERRY AWI French to buy,
Cheers |
historygamer | 04 Feb 2010 7:41 p.m. PST |
As of May 1776, all battalions (except the Guards and Regiment du Roi) were to have two battalions. Eeach battlion would consist of 6 companies – one of grenadiers, one of chaussuers, and four fusilier. Grenadiers had about 108 men, while the Chaussuer and fusiliers had about 171 each. This from Chartrand's book on the French army of the period. The regimental staff consisted of about 12 men. A quick look at Brendan Morrissey's Yorktown OB does not indicate that the French massed their grenadiers or lights. In fact, I don't think they did during this period. I don't recall them doing that in other AWI actions either. |
aecurtis | 04 Feb 2010 7:51 p.m. PST |
If Chartrand says the earlier organization was still in effect, then I'd go with Chartrand. I'm not sure about battlions and Chaussuers, though. Or
maybe not: link |
Adam D | 04 Feb 2010 8:24 p.m. PST |
The British army in the AWI created semi-permanent battalions of light infantry and grenadiers that sometimes served at a considerable distance from the hat companies. The French routinely grouped their chasseur companies and grenadier companies, but so far as I've been able to ascertain, this was done primarily on an ad hoc basis. (I can't comment on whether this reflects doctrine or whether it was a result of other factors). The grouping of the Gatinais and Deux-Ponts grenadiers for the assault on Redoubt #9 at Yorktown is well known, but there were also amalgamations of chasseurs and/or grenadiers in the taking or attempted taking of Dominica, St Lucia (i.e., La Vigie), Grenada, Savannah, Tobago, St Eustatius, and St Kitts. (Beyond these actions I don't know). |
Adam D | 04 Feb 2010 9:48 p.m. PST |
To provide an example, its February 1782 and the French have landed on St Kitts. Holed up on Brimstone Hill, "the Gibraltar of the West Indies" are the 1st Foot and the flank companies of the 15th. The French undertake siege operations but worry about a landing of British infantry after a relief force arrives. They detail the grenadiers and chasseurs of the Agenois and Touraine regiments to guard the point at which the British land. The British have superior numbers: the 28th and 69th Foot plus the grenadiers and light infantry of the 13th, and drive the French back. However, the French fight an effective delaying action and soon regiment Dillon is up followed by others. The British had won by this time a strong position and a stalemate ensues. Both sides claim victory -- the British because they drove the French back and inflicted heavier casualties (about 80 to 40), and the French because they stopped the relief force from getting through. The relief force subsequently abandons their mission and the garrison is battered into submission. (The above is based chiefly on secondary sources; lots of 18th and 19th Century accounts of the Carribean campaign are available through Google Books). |
Supercilius Maximus | 05 Feb 2010 3:00 a.m. PST |
The French did not form the type of "campaign-long" elite battalions that the British did, much less the semi-permanent formations of the Prussian service. Their flank companies tended to be converged as and when a mission was contemplated. Hence they appear prominently in various orders of battle during the AWI; several of the "regiments" at Savannah were "reduced" battalions of two flank and two fusilier companies (the fusiliers themselves usually being composed of picked men from one or both battalions). This tends to have been French doctrine throughout the 18th Century; this might have been because the French army as a whole had specific grenadiers units (Grenadiers Royaux and Grenadiers de France) to form the elite reserve and hence did not need to remove men from individual regiments. A second factor was the proprietorial nature of the colonelcy of French army units. Thirdly, in terms of their overseas garrisons, the French did not "mass" troops in their colonies the way the British did. Hence one often finds not just single regiments, but even individual battalions serving in very isolated places; when a larger force was assembled locally for an expedition, they would cherry-pick the best elements, but leave enough men behind to maintain a garrison. Another point worth noting is that the flank companies were usually held at regimental level (and thus always free to be assigned elsewhere) rather than with the individual battalions. It was only on parade that the grenadiers were with the 1st Battalion (on the right flank) and chasseurs with the 2nd Battalion (on the left flank). As is pointed out above, the Gatinais and Deux-Ponts elites were "converged" for the assualt on Redoubt 9, but this was literally done on the day. |
GiloUK | 05 Feb 2010 4:11 a.m. PST |
Very helpful info here. I'm glad I'm not the only one getting confused
. From what SM says, it sounds as if a French/Allied player can justify having some discretion in how he arranges his French troops. The "British Grenadier" scenarios for La Vigie and Savannah have units of combined grenadiers, and I can see how this can be explained by the fact that both battles involve the storming of redoubts – it makes sense to have your elite companies together in an "on the day" composite unit. It sounds as if the thing to do with all these new Perry goodies is to use the OFM method of painting up the flank companies as you go along, and then you can decide what to do with them on a game-by-game basis. Giles |
trailape | 05 Feb 2010 4:59 a.m. PST |
"OFM method of painting"????? What the,
? |
GiloUK | 05 Feb 2010 5:30 a.m. PST |
Sorry, I meant the practice of painting flank companies at the same time as painting the centre companies, not leaving them until a later stage (eg when you decide to paint up a whole combined grenadier battalion). That's what John the OFM also says he does. |
Supercilius Maximus | 05 Feb 2010 5:30 a.m. PST |
<<Eeach battlion would consist of 6 companies – one of grenadiers, one of chaussuers, and four fusilier. Grenadiers had about 108 men, while the Chaussuer and fusiliers had about 171 each. This from Chartrand's book on the French army of the period.>> I think this is either a typo on Rene's part, or else was quickly superceded – the June 1776 Ordonnance, of which I have an English translation, refers throughout to just two flank companies (one of each type) per regiment, and four "divisions" of fusiliers in each of the battalions. Each company had two "pelotons" and so the set-up mirrored the Prussian system of eight platoons, four divisions and two wings. |
aecurtis | 05 Feb 2010 6:11 a.m. PST |
That's consistent with the two sources I likned to above. It would suggest an error on Chartrand's part, which surprises me. But it jibes with what I remember
Keep in mind that if you model any overseas regiments (say for the Caribbean), they were structured a little differently. Chartrand covers those in his Osprey, as well. Allen |
Supercilius Maximus | 05 Feb 2010 6:25 a.m. PST |
When you say "overseas" I assume you mean Colonial corps, not just merely a metropolitan unit sent abroad, yes? |
aecurtis | 05 Feb 2010 6:54 a.m. PST |
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Duc de Limbourg | 05 Feb 2010 3:00 p.m. PST |
When did the french 2md battalion "loose" its chasseur company as in the Fren ch revolution there was no chasseur company anymore |
John the OFM | 05 Feb 2010 7:32 p.m. PST |
I have an old Gorget and Sash magaxine with an article on Savannah. It seems that the French, for this camaign, had "detachments" from up to 30 different regiments. You know the drill. "Colonel de Vigny, send me 60 of your best men!" At which Col de Vigny has the Sgt Major round up all the usual suspects. This explains the lists in Lefferts of dozens of regiments, when there were so few at Newport and Yorktown. Anyone wishing to "do" the savannah campaign can paint up acompletely unique stands, one from each regiment. This is really the only way to include the exotics like the Dillon regiment. Sadly, the "OFM method" does not work for Savannah, although for Yorktown it works quite well. One organization I have seen (Lefferts, and cpied in "1776" rules) had the first battalion with the grenadier company, and the 2nd battalion with the chasseur company. |
abdul666lw | 06 Feb 2010 12:34 a.m. PST |
When did the french 2nd battalion "loose" its chasseur company as in the Fren ch revolution there was no chasseur company anymore? Certainly during the amalgame of 1794 (1 bnt of 'professionals' from the King's army + 2 bnt of volunteers -> 1 demi-brigade). As the 'left flank' 2nd (light) elite company, chasseurs reappear in 1804 as 'voltigeurs' (at the same time, seemingly, as the 'ouvriers-charpentiers' (regimental pioneers) became 'sapeurs' for some reason -more prestigious name?). Yet the name of 'chasseur' for a 2nd type of elite infantryman was not forgotten: that's why the infantry of the Consular (soon to be Imperial) Guard was made of Grenadiers and Chasseurs (and, by similarity, the Guard cavalry of Grenadiers à cheval and Chasseurs à cheval). |
abdul666lw | 06 Feb 2010 2:51 a.m. PST |
From 1794 to 1815 'chasseurs' was also used for the 'ordinary' infantryman of the Infanterie Legere (where grenadiers were replaced by carabiniers) -fully equivalent to the 'fusiliers' of the Ligne. Yet the men took benefit from the name to see themselves as a kind of elite, and like to wear a sabre or sword in addition to their bayonet, all regulations notwithstanding. Colorful units, even if entirely on national / imperial blue, btw, with the carabiniers in 'plain' bearskin and the voltogeurs in busby; and some colonels did not hesitate to give fancy pieces of clothing to their musicians: red shapska, chamois / chammy coat with green or sky blue facings
If 'transposed' to the army of some Lace Wars Imagi-Nation, the chasseurs would have a black mirliton. The unit would look quite good indeed: all in blue but white gaiters to 'light up' the whole, bearskins, mirlitons and busbies, fanciful drummer
Hmm! Sorry, got carried away. |
aecurtis | 06 Feb 2010 12:53 p.m. PST |
"But it jibes with what I remember
" "One organization I have seen (Lefferts, and cpied in "1776" rules) had the first battalion with the grenadier company, and the 2nd battalion with the chasseur company." That's probably where I remember it from! Allen |
11th ACR | 06 Feb 2010 1:29 p.m. PST |
I as-well Allen. Robert Henry |
bclead | 08 Apr 2010 8:33 a.m. PST |
Supercilius Maximus: Would it be possible to get a copy of your English Translation of the June 1776 Ordonnance, or could you point me in the direction of where to find another? Thanks! |
Rudysnelson | 08 Apr 2010 10:51 a.m. PST |
Allen, my notes have that organization as well. |
Supercilius Maximus | 08 Apr 2010 11:59 a.m. PST |
bclead, The translation was done by an academic who gave me a copy in return for some work I did for him, so unfortunately I'm not sure I'm at liberty to share it. However, here is his web page if you want to contact him direct:- link If that link doesn't work, try this study group, as he is one of the leading members:- link |
French Wargame Holidays | 09 Apr 2010 5:18 p.m. PST |
What rules will you be using Trailape? I have some brits and Americans for AWI based for British Grenadier, so if you come up to Lace wars we could have a game cheers matt |
bclead | 12 Apr 2010 7:06 a.m. PST |
Hey Supercilius Maximus, Thank you so much for the lead! It was very much appreciated. I dropped him an email – we'll see how it goes!! Thanks again!! |