"GMB flags fading" Topic

Hi TMPers

I have just moticed that my GMB flags (Napoleonic French ones as it happens) have all faded. My miniatures are kept when not in use (and not in use is what they have been for about a year now) in a closed cabinet so there is no chance that this is UV fade. Other flags in same cabinet are fine – it is just the GMB ones.

Has anyone else experienced this probolem?

Regards
Brian

Hmmm. Seems to be all too common
TMP link

In each case/ thread, could the case be new-ish and this is an off-gassing problem from the wood used in the cabinet?

I use metal cabinets due to this issue, which was brought to my attention years ago by a father, who collect gun shells. He claimed that the wood gases would ruin the metal shells.

Just a thought.

I haven't posted this, because I'm still not 100% sure….but a friend of mine has some 25mm French flags that he says are from GMB but they really look like poorly rendered digital ink jet copies.

The GMB flags I know are hand painted and look amazing. Are there different styles and print runs? If so, this is very disappointing….

I've just had a tip to look at this..and posted on the other thread.

TMP link

Brian

Please do get in touch if you've got any kind of problem. I'd like to help if I can.

Clay,
'poorly rendered' !!
I'd very much like to see those. Ask your friend to get in touch with me – tell him I'll swap his flags for some new GMB ones

gmbdesigns@blueyonder.co.uk

Grahame
GMB

You're link doesn't work for me.

I really would like to see pictures of your flags – is there a website that shows them?

Like I said, while I trust my friend, these flags did NOT look like any GMB flag I've ever seen.

Clay

rjabox's link ( second post ) will take you there

If you email me

gmbdesigns@blueyonder.co.uk

I'll send some photos. You can see the flags on the Perries website too – but strangely, their photos focus on the figures not my flags !

G

Maybe the pixellated ones are from a different manufacturer.
I bought some which were rather disappointing for that reason.

Could off-gassing really do that much damage?
Perhaps we should be varnishing our flags.

off-gassing, UV, smoke, humidity, heat, damp, and even air conditioning…
paint, ink, film – even car paint ( red cars are particularly prone to fading )all have problems to varying degrees.

I have som GMB AWI flags that are now a year and a half old and no fading here, they are in a clapboard closet with glass doors.

I have never had a problem with the GMB flags, although I would caution against spraying them with Dull Coat, which can sometimes cover them in a white fog. So base the figures first, then dull coat them, and then finish them off by adding the flag last.

I seal with a brush on gloss varnish first then spray with dullcoat.

I've been using them for years and haven't noticed fading (although I confess I haven't looked too closely.)

But the advice about spraying them with any sort of varnish is a hard lesson that we've all learned. I had about a dozen Russian flags ruined that way when I hit the whole bunch of units with varnish at once. What a mess, scraping them off the flagpoles, buying new ones, etc.

You have to put them on last – AFTER all the varnishing and basing is done, because anything aerosol will melt them.

I apply a clear acrylic spray before manipulating the flags. The first time I tried to glue a GMB flag with white glue I smeared the flag a bit but was able to touch up the damage. I apply a light coat of dullcote when the flag has set.They are my favorite flags by far-the colors are stunning!

Thank you for the replies.

Many of my GMB flags replaced either hand painted or old sticky paper ones. The models they went on were already painted so I am pretty sure I would not have varnished them again.

I have made some War of 1812 flags myself and printed them on a high quality laser on good paper. I sealed them with varnish, and they are in pristine condition years later.

Thanks to Graeme for getting involved. I deliberately did not post this thread in the Consumer Affairs section because I was not sure of the cause, and was not sure if it is a GMB problem or one of storage.

Spraying the Flags with Dulcote or something else is asking for trouble. Watch out, this is a problem!

I know it's not that fashionable to use it, but . . . .

I've used good-old-fashioned Humbrol matt varnish, without any problems at all.

By the way, GMB flags are without any question, the best I've seen.

If GMB already spray the flags with a fixative (to make them waterproof), why ever would one want to varnish them anyway?

It is not as if a design printed on paper will rub, scrape or chip off like paint does. Varnish also seems to have no effect on colourfastness. And varnish wouldn't be required to get a nice matt finish either, because that is the way the flags already come.

So I'm intrigued as to what reason some of you still use varnish?

Well in my case I was putting the final varnish on the figures, sealing the flock, and all that jazz. It didn't occur to me that the flags would melt when they got hit with the varnish.

HI Grahame
I am having trouble ordering your flags as none of my email,s
appear to be getting to you, Is there another way to order ?

I've had the same trouble, but it only seems to affect certain flags and not others, so my theory is maybe it's due to different manufacturers or batches of ink or paper? For example, I bought and mounted the Washington HQ flag set and the Bunker Hill flag set at exactly the same time (around five years ago), yet the blue of the Washington flag has now faded almost to aquamarine (the red on the Betsy Ross flag alongside is equally faded), while the blue of the Bunker Hill flag is as good as new.

Both have been kept in the same (metal) drawer since day one – in a cool, damp-free environment.

Some flags seem to start fading as soon as they come out of the packet – an orange & blue Hessian flag I mounted only a year ago is already fading – while others never fade at all. I'd say that around 25% of my flags have suffered obvious fading (made more obvious by the fact that I paint the edges to match the flag colour – the paint doesn't fade, while the flag does).

I'd also add that I don't varnish them (due to bitter experiece of varnishing other printed paper flags) and I use UHU clear glue to stick them together.

I've bought mine directly from Graham, so they're genuine. GMB are by far the best product out there, so I'll just replace them with more GMB.

Been noticing some pretty extreme fading on my GMB Civil War and Napoleonic flags. I just finished a few new Napoleonic stands: Prussian, French, and Russian, and placed them on my table next to units from a few years ago and the fading is very noticeable.
I guess I'll have to re-do the older fading flags at some point.

I agree with GDrover….replace them. They are hardly expensive for what you get. They are easily replaced on any figure. Realistically, any colour exposed to UV fades…..and, let's face it, so did the real thing! They may look more authentic in fact!

My only worry about GMB flags is that some seem far too big for Perry 28mm. The 1815 French flags, esp cavalry, do seem "substantial", even accepting that the Hundred Days replacements were larger than their predecessors. Doesn't stop me using them tho'. Even the hussars and chasseurs get an eagle, however non-authentic just because they look so good

I got back from Iraq 3 months ago after a 2 year tour. Noticed several of my Napoleonic GMB flags faded. Others are fine. They were parked in a cabinet out of the sun. Oddly, those I left on my game table has about the same mix of fading and those that were fine. Blinds were left closed all that time, but I'm sure some sun squeeked through.

No worries though.. I'll just replace them. Had them for several years and just figure its 'wear and tear'.

Respect…pbisphop12

"I got back from Iraq 3 months ago after" etc

I paint my figures after a weekend on call as an NHS surgeon in UK and think I! need to wind down. Makes me realise yet again………..on balance, it is easier being back here!

Hi all – hope you don't mind me pitching in. ( cut'n'paste from a previous TMP reply )

Glenn, I emailed you this afternoon.. Let me know what flags you have and when they were purchased.

I did have a problem with some faulty pigments a couple of years ago. I stopped using them as soon as I received reports of fading. I've disposed of all the remaining pigments in addition to any suspect stock and stopped using them as soon as I received reports of fading. I am no longer using that source for any materials.

I pay a lot for top quality pigments and have the extremely high quality paper made to my specifications so I'd be very concerned to find that there is the same problem occuring with completely different inks and paper. All current shipments are printed to order – so nobody should receive any sneaky survivors from the old stock.

I have some flags mounted on figures from around 2001 – on a shelf above my design bench. Austrian and Prussian Napoleonics along with a couple of ECW stands. They are still fine after all this time. They are printed using the same inks that I currently use, glued using a glue stick and unvarnished.
The flags receive a UV resistant non-yellowing resin coating before drying and packing.

I understand that customers sometimes like to varnish to improve durability but I find that acrylic matt varnishes tend to dull down the vibrancy of colours and flatten any contrast I even avoid them in wood finishes for the same reason.
One I have tried is Winsor & Newton Artists' Matt Varnish – it's oil based and does leave a slight sheen – but no reduction in vibrancy. I've successfully applied it with a brush.
As with all varnishes, the matting agent is the killer – if the varnish isn't thoroughly mixed, the concentrated matting agent will apply a fog over any painting.

I've had very few complaints – Between ten and fifteen, ( though reading on the internet there are a number of people who frustratingly, despite my requests, still haven't contacted me ) In each case I've replaced any orders without question. My reputation depends on me providing a quality product and good after-purchase support.

I encourage anyone who has had issues of any kind to get in touch and allow me to help to resolve the problem.

You'll notice a greater depth of colour and crisper detail on the new flags – I have reworked a lot of the early ranges and taken on board the needs of all you Perry fans. The newly done French 1815 are smaller – though not too small to see all the work I've put into them… ;)

Best regards

Grahame, GMB Designs
gmbdesigns@blueyonder.co.uk
gmbdesigns.com

After reading all the posts I had a feeling it could of been the printing ink used at that time.

I would like to endorse Grahame and his comment above.
He replaced my faded GMB flags without hesitation.

Thanks again Grahame

I'm with Der Alte Fritz.
I sprayed my GMB Prussian flags with Dullcoat and the color changed.
I won't be doing that again!

GMB are great flags though!

I forgot to update this thread that I started way back when. Graham sorted it all out almost as soon as I contacted him. Top bloke and great product.

Blair Spray Fix is an artist's fixative for any kind of artwork on paper. It is a matt clear finish and 'fixes' any ink, paint, pen or pencil [even charcoal] so that it won't fade, run if wet, 'gas out' etc. It can be painted and drawn over without affecting the paint etc. under the fixative. It is also has no thickness, like paint.

Good stuff for flags.

Just found this thread and let me be the first to endorse how good GMB flags are. Grahame has fantastic after sales backup too. I emailed him the evidence for some of my flags fading and he insisted on replacing EVERYTHING I have ordered – even those that have not faded.
I only emailed to enquire whether i should spray them next time to avoid it happening again.
Ill never go anywhere else!
Cheers
Robin

My GMB Austrian flags (1792 pattern) have certainly faded somewhat – especially the yellows.

I bought a few back in 2009 and I've slowly but surely used four of them on various units since then. The couple I still have left over, in their original packets (and kept in a box in a draw), have held their strong yellows, but the ones I've used have developed a distinctly buff tone, very noticeable when put alongside the identical unused flags. I did give them a coat of acrylic varnish – so maybe that was a mistake, but the fading is more noticeable on the raised folds of the flag which suggests to me a light / UV issue.

Admittedly the figure have at times spent prolong periods 'exposed' on my wargames table, but even so the window blinds (just the one small window) in my games room are usually more than half closed and the room never gets any direct sunlight at any time of the year. Having said that, I do live in Australia, and the sun is strong here so perhaps even reflected UV light might be too potent. Might be some heat and humidity issues as well down here.

Needless to say, I don't think I'll be changing them. Stripping them off their carefully painted 'barber-shop' striped flag poles is too awful to contemplate. If it gets really bad I might consider an experiment in hand re-colouring. :)

GMB are still GREAT flags though.

You can see some of them here (they still look pretty good in spite of the fading) –

link

Scroll half way to the bottom of the latest "Back in the (Dragoon} Saddle" post for a picture.

DPT

Welcome back John. Congrats on how your blog & painting is coming along, your figures are fantastic. Good to see the mince pies are still working well mate.
Cheers,

Mark

I have had some great personal feedback from Grahame Black re minor issues on flag size and he has certainly convinced me that he has it right, for scale effect.

How can any pigment ever produced stand up to UV light exposure? Take any book off your book shelf and compare the spine to the cover. My Anatomy of Glory or Wellington at Waterloo both have grey spines after 40 years in my library.

Let's be realistic. All colours (flags) fade (within reason) and often look better for it.

Every light horse unit I possess carries some kind of standard;I have French hussars skirmishing, who obviously must carry an eagle……..How nonsensical is that? My Waterloo Polish lancers might be only one one squadron by then, but they still follow Colbert, arm in sling, up the ridge with their own separate eagle. Daft, I know, but if the flag fades in time….what the hell? Life is too short

Good point about color fading. Even by todays technology, you still have fading on all things(paints, fabrics , flags, paper, and etc…).It really is the gamers choice of what he likes, but eventually fading will catch up. How much fading is the question.
take care,
Keith

my GMB flags have been sitting around for a while, and I haven't noticed any fading at all. I think they're 2-3 years old. They've been stored in an IKEA cabinet with lots of drawers, so hardly high-quality wood, and they were in a bit of a musty rec room.

As for the sizing, if you're concerned that something is too large or small in scale, you can photocopy to resize – after all, you've bought the flag and aren't re-selling it. As I begin 40mm, that's an issue I've been facing – the flag isn't made by anyone, so it has to be resized from 25mm.

Good thought, but……………I'll bet GMB will immediately tell us that the kind of ink we use in our PC printers will fade in no time at all, so I honestly cannot imagine photocopying being an option to resize. Just look at the density of colour in those flags and see if your Hewlett Packard can deliver that!

UV and oxygen will destroy anything on earth in the end