Erwin Muilwijk | 21 Jan 2010 7:10 a.m. PST |
I was just wondering after some light reading, if there were still infantry battalions equiped with pikes at the start of the WSS and which countries these were? For example France? Or Bavaria? |
dbf1676 | 21 Jan 2010 7:55 a.m. PST |
Bavaria, no. France, yes, but probably not all of them. Denmark no. United Provinces, yes. There is also evidence that suggests that the British used them in the Low Countries up to 1707. |
Erwin Muilwijk | 21 Jan 2010 7:57 a.m. PST |
I myself play with a French army, so is there any evidence for particular battalions? Is it that the French still used a detachment of pikes, because they were slow to recognise the importance in the beginning of the WSS of the flintlock? |
Who asked this joker | 21 Jan 2010 8:03 a.m. PST |
France phased out the pike by 1700 so WSS no. There are probably a few minor countries that still had the pike. The pike was also used in the Great North War. However, as a rule of thumb, you can say "no pikes" in the WSS. |
Colonel Bill | 21 Jan 2010 8:17 a.m. PST |
dbf1676 is correct, at least according to Iain Stanford, one of my best buds from the mother land, fellow Pike & Shot Society member and WSS researcher par excellence. I've not heard that they made a significant impact in the manner of Charles XII and his Swedes, but I am putting a stand of them into the appropriate brigades for my upcoming Cold Wars game on Blenheim. They look spiffy. Regards, Bill Gray ageofeagles.grouply.com |
Altefritz | 21 Jan 2010 8:50 a.m. PST |
According to Nosworthy, "The Anatomy of Victory", p.42, Louis XIV introduced the use of socket bayonet in all regiments with a circular of November 11, 1692. Moreover he records at p.43 that Villars was allowed to remove pikes from the Army of Italy from January 16, 1702. However shortage of flintlocks prevented the full elimination of pikes until 1708. In my opionion, therefore, it would be possible that especially amongst raw-recruited regiments, pikes where still present. Never forget that by 1692 the pikes accounted only between 15-30% of privates. |
Supercilius Maximus | 21 Jan 2010 8:52 a.m. PST |
Didn't some of the foreign regiments in French service – I'm thinking of the Swiss mainly – retain pikes? |
Erwin Muilwijk | 21 Jan 2010 9:03 a.m. PST |
So guys, what sort of percentage should I more or less apply? Were the Guard Francaise without pikes? Why raw recruited battalions, raised during the WSS by Louis XIV? Because these latter had all sorts of problems to be raised? It becomes more and more interestig, building my French army :-) |
Altefritz | 21 Jan 2010 9:57 a.m. PST |
>So guys, what sort of percentage should I more or less apply? October 1, 1692 King's Ordinance: Field coy 2 sergeants 3 corporals (fusil) 5 anspessades (fusil) 10 pikemen 13 fusiliers – flintlock armed 21 muskeeters – matchlock armed 1 drummer so they are 10 on 55, roughly 20%. >Were the Guard Francaise without pikes? No idea. The first regiment to throw away pikes for bayonets was Regiment du Roy. >Why raw recruited battalions, raised during the WSS by Louis XIV? Because >these latter had all sorts of problems to be raised? I tought this because in shortage of time and money it would be easier and less expensive to train and pay a pikemen instead of a muskeeter. However the same could apply to regiments in campaign with shortage of replacements
As far as the German and English regiments Nosworthy suggests that by 1697 the transition to bayonet was completed. |
cirederftrebua | 21 Jan 2010 10:15 a.m. PST |
"October 1, 1692 King's Ordinance: Field coy had 10 on 55, roughly 20%." Sorry but 1692 is a lot of time before WSS. I really think the qty of pikes was very small in french army after 1702-03
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idontbelieveit | 21 Jan 2010 10:22 a.m. PST |
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Dan Cyr | 21 Jan 2010 12:09 p.m. PST |
You can read about Flemmish regiments that fought using pike in the early WSS. Dan |
Altefritz | 21 Jan 2010 12:32 p.m. PST |
>Sorry but 1692 is a lot of time before WSS. >I really think the qty of pikes was very small in french army after 1702-03
Yes Fred, but it was the only reliable date I was able to find
My picture is that pike was something of residual in the early WSS, disappearing totally close to the big firefight battles of 1708-09. Could it be that in the SHAT archives there is something about this topic? Cheers Fabrizio |
Altefritz | 21 Jan 2010 12:38 p.m. PST |
From the Robert Hall book on the French Infantry in the WSS: "Pikemen At the end of the Thirty Years War the ratio of pikes to muskets was one third pikes and two thirds muskets. The number of pikemen declined throughout the period and in 1670 the number was set at two pikemen to five musketeers. In 1671 it was recorded as 1:3. In 1666 the pike is recorded as being 4,50 metres in length. In 1687 doing away with pikes completely and using chevaux de frise as a defense against cavalry instead, was considered but the idea was dropped. By 1690 the ratio had dropped to 1:4 on campaign with garrison companies having no pikes at all. In 1692 the infantry company consisted of 55 men – 10 pikemen, 21 musketeers, 21 fusiliers, 2 sergeants, 1 drummer. At this stage the company stood 5 men deep. Some regiments entered the War of the Spanish Succession with the ratio of 1:4 but only in 1702/03 did Villeroi finally do away with pikes in his army of Italy. The Swiss were the last to give up pikes in the winter of 1703/04. Pikemen would have worn breastplates at the beginning of the period but probably "lost" them along the way to end up in standard uniform by the turn of the century. Once again, the Swiss wore the breastplate right up to the abolition of the pikes. Existing contracts make no mention of pikemen or pikes." |
abdul666lw | 21 Jan 2010 1:04 p.m. PST |
By the late 17th C., at least in France, in some regiments pikemen wore reversed coats. A (Rousselot, I believe) plate (sorry, link to thumbnail only) shows one such for the Gardes Suisses: picture obviously from the early years of Louis XIV at most. I don't know how widespread was the practice, and if it passed out of fashion before the pikes themselves? A book on the light troops of the Ancien Regime -and pickets from 'regular' units playing the same roles- mentions that at the end it was hard to recruit pikemen because they were excluded from the 'partis' sent to "raise contributions" in enemy territory. |
cirederftrebua | 22 Jan 2010 3:20 a.m. PST |
"Some regiments entered the War of the Spanish Succession with the ratio of 1:4 but only in 1702/03 did Villeroi finally do away with pikes in his army of Italy. The Swiss were the last to give up pikes in the winter of 1703/04." Hello Fabrizio, I think this assertion is good. 1702/1704 seems good for end of pikes period in french army
Fred |
Major William Martin RM | 22 Jan 2010 4:11 a.m. PST |
Jean-Louis; With respect my friend, the plate that you linked to is plate 18 of a series, "Hussard du marais Ancien Regime" by Mssr. Eugene de Leliepvre, and published by Le Cimier. It is offered, along with several others in the set, here: link With regard to the uniform detail of the pikeman; this is the figure pictured just to the left of center, top row, and depicts a pikeman of the early era, circa 1660. He is still wearing the French "classic" helmet with back and breast, shoulder protection and tassets for the thighs. If one looks carefully, he is actually wearing the same uniform as the musketeer pictured just below and to the left in larger detail. This consisted of red hose with blue garters at the top, red bloused pantaloons tied at the knee, and a red coat of the earlier, looser, style with half sleeves ending just below the elbow and large blue cuffs. A similar figure, this time of the Scottish Douglas Regiment, is shown on the cover and Plate 1 of René Chartrand's Osprey title on "Louis XIV's Army". I believe, but am not positive, that the fashion of reversed colors for pikemen in this era was an English one, most notably of the Coldstream Guards. At the Restoration, the other ranks wore red coats with green facings and the pikemen wore a green coat with red facings. I believe this custom only lasted for a short time however. With regard to the use of pikes in the WSS, I agree completely with Fred and Fabrizio on the dates mentioned, but would point out that the later date given for "Swiss" regiments does not apply to the Gardes Suisses, only to the Swiss regiments etranger in French service. All of the battalions of both the Gardes Francaises and the Gardes Suisses would have given up their pikes by the turn of the century according to most sources that I have found. They were among the first regiments to be fully-equipped with flintlock fusils and socket bayonets. Bill Sir William the Aged waroflouisxiv.blogspot.com |
18th Century Guy | 22 Jan 2010 6:10 a.m. PST |
Sir William the Aged, Your link doesn't work? |
cirederftrebua | 22 Jan 2010 10:01 a.m. PST |
Ok. I found a very old french book on Gallica (French national library). This book, written in 1721, and named : "Histoire de la milice française" explains all changes in french army for all weapons and protections. It is clearly explained the following : 1/ In 1689, the baron d'Asfeld, coming back from Hungary were he fighted for the Sweden king with a corps of 2.000 men against the Turks, said to Louvrois that the Emperor removed all pikes to the troops and prefered to give muskets to all infantry troops because this weapon is much more efficient against Turks. Louvrois thought about that but didn't changed the french army. It was too soon ! 2/ In 1690, during the battle of Fleurus, it was clearly observed that it was much more easy to beat Nederland batallions armed with pikes than the same number of German batallions armed with muskets because of the good fire of these german troops. 3/ Mr le marechal de Catinat, during the war in the Alps, removed all pikes to his troops because the pikes were not efficient at all in the mountains battlefields : the musket fire was much more prefered. 4/ During Italian campaigns, the same strategy was adopted because of the very broken ground of the battlefields. 5/ Louis XIV, knowing all these events, asked to Vauban and to Montesquiou (D'artagnan) what they thought about that. Louis XIV finally adopted the policy of Vauban against Montesquiou and, in 1703, the king wrote an Ordonnance Royale removing ALL pikes in french army and substituing flintlocks to them !!! Bayonet employement was very new : given only for the first time in 1671 to the "regiment des Fusiliers" (next "Royal-Artillerie"). The bayonet will have now to replace the pikes !!!!! This change was considered amazing and very important for the period and was done only 4 years after an other important change : the replacement of all old muskets by flintlocks(1699). In 4 years, two major changes occured in the organization of the french army : that will take time to it to tame them ! Happy that very old french sources confirmed my previous assertions ;-))
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Major William Martin RM | 22 Jan 2010 11:42 a.m. PST |
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Erwin Muilwijk | 23 Jan 2010 7:24 a.m. PST |
Well guys, thanks very much (so far) for all your insights. My french army can thus use pikes until the end of 1703 and after that no longer. I have to buy figures with pikes, but as I play 6mm for this period of the WSS it isn't much money involved. |
Erwin Muilwijk | 30 Jan 2010 5:09 a.m. PST |
Just one more thing, though. I just started reading Nosworthy's book on the battle tactics of this period and he states that the French finally changed completely to the flintlock musket by the end of 1708. Wouldn't it therefore not be possible that even to that year, battalions equiped with mostly matchlocks still also had a detachment of pikes with them? And does an order in 1703 really mean that the French army was logisticaly able to conform with this order and could equip everyone with muskets? |
Erwin Muilwijk | 30 Jan 2010 7:09 a.m. PST |
You can also wonder if 1703 was the final date for the French army, even with the king ordering so, because were not the colonels responsible to pay these muskets on their own expense? Even for the 'state' infantry? |
Waco Joe | 01 Nov 2015 7:03 p.m. PST |
Portugal still used a fair number. |
Daniel S | 02 Nov 2015 2:47 a.m. PST |
Spain, there was a long and hard fought war in Spain between Franco-Spanish forces supporting Philipp on one side and Anglo-Dutch, Portugese, Imperial, Palatinate and last but not least Catalonian forces supporting Charles. |