"Tell Me About Imagi-nations..." Topic
22 Posts
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Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut | 18 Jan 2010 10:10 p.m. PST |
OK, so I dusted of some old WSS/SYW figs, and started painting them to match the first stand I did, about 8 years ago. Then I went online to research what their accompanying Dragoons wore, and found out I have paiinted my line troops all wrong Ooriginally meant as GNW Danish.) So, I have heard of the "imagi-nation" concept, and wish to hear more. Just so I am not too embarassed if my little mispainted GNW skirmish group ever sees the table. Thank you! |
timurilank | 18 Jan 2010 11:43 p.m. PST |
You can start here with what already has been written about this direction: TMP link TMP link TMP link TMP link and add the number of imaginations blogs to your research. TMP link About the GNW Danes, is it not possible you painted a different regiment. Were not the uniforms were still varied from regiment to regiment? Cheers, Robert 18thcenturysojourn.blogspot.com |
Prinz Geoffrey | 19 Jan 2010 5:56 a.m. PST |
Imaginations = Invent a country, invent a history, paint up an army and declare your right to rule. :) It really is all up to your imagination and we fellow imagi-nation rulers will support your endevours however we can. link emporer vs. elector is a great resource for reading about imaginations, diplomatic correspondence and general commoradery. Hope to see your brave pseudo-danes have their own country soon. best regards, Prinz Geoffrey of Cavenderia cavenderia.blogspot.com |
abdul666lw | 19 Jan 2010 6:13 a.m. PST |
Some arguments and discussion in this post (main text and comments added later): link On the left (updated 3 days ago), 125+ links to Imagi-Nations, some 1/3 not (as yet) associated with the 'Emperor vs Elector' informal 'League' ( link with some 75 'members): the diversity of approaches is amazing. |
Der Alte Fritz | 19 Jan 2010 8:42 a.m. PST |
It all stems from Brigadier Peter Young's book "Charge", written in the 1970s. He created several fictional 18th century countries as the basis for his wargames. One was a sort of French nation, while the other was Prussian in style. The idea was that fictional countries don't have built in biases or national characteristics to confound the players. I use regular Prussian infantry as stand ins for my fictional Hesse Seewald country. My Austrians are stand ins for The Imperium. My opponent's French represent the country of Gallia, and so on and so forth. |
Happy Little Trees | 19 Jan 2010 8:49 a.m. PST |
Don't you mean Charles Grant's The War Game? That had the Prussian French analogues. Brigadier Young's set up was Emperor/Elector. |
Grizwald | 19 Jan 2010 9:11 a.m. PST |
"He created several fictional 18th century countries as the basis for his wargames." Well, two IIRC. |
abdul666lw | 19 Jan 2010 9:58 a.m. PST |
link Charles Grant (left) created the Vereinigte Freie Städte -a kind of Hanseatic League- with troops in a variety of uniforms (some historical from various origins, some of his own design; original flags with a black eagle) and the Grand Duche de Lorraine (basically historical French uniforms, flags and names). P. Young (right) had created the Electorate of Teutoberg-Althaufen, the forces of which he divided when playing his 'Emperor vs Elector' campaign -uniforms from a diversity of sources, including Napoleonic RHA, but at least one unit of original design, the famous Erbprinz Regiment picture P. Young's 'Charge' was printed in "67 (American re-print "70), C. Grant's 'The War Game' in "71, but at least the later had first be publshed as a series in a wargaming magazine. For some reason Young's book appears to be better known, with not a few people having a 'Charge!' project ( classicwargaming.blogspot.com ). Yet imho 'The War Game' is a better, more inspirational and more comprehensive introduction to mid-18th C. wargaming (battles and campaign) and to the use of Imagi-Nations. Grant's booklet on 'The Battle of Fontenoy' was a 'Companion' to his book, long before his son published 'The War Game Companion'. |
Chris Palmer | 19 Jan 2010 11:12 a.m. PST |
Some of the HAWKS regularly run Not Quite Seven Year War (NQSYW) games at the HMGS-East conventions using the forces from the club members' many imagi-nations. The figures are mainly Prince August 40mm homecasts and it is quite a spectical to see the big many-colored troops arrayed on a large convention table. I know they are doing one at the HAWKs upcoming local Barrage convention this Saturday, and again at Cold Wars in March. link |
Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut | 19 Jan 2010 12:08 p.m. PST |
Thank you all for the many comments and links. This will give me quite a bit to explore over the next few mornings :) |
Der Alte Fritz | 19 Jan 2010 3:15 p.m. PST |
I'd recommend that you buy copies of: Charge – Young & Lawford The Wargame – Charles Grant, Sr. The Wargame Companion – Charles Grant, Jr. |
abdul666lw | 20 Jan 2010 6:24 a.m. PST |
Charles Grant's first justification of Imagi-Nations was that they allow to adjust exacly-starting with the drawing of their map- the size / scale of the campaign to the player's ambitions and possibilities. (with the implied assumption that Major Powers don't bother to care about what is happening in this backwater area of the Continent link ). Actually, regardless of the size of the devised map, as the player's collection of minis grows the encounters will escalade from border skirmishes link to large battles link . The final scale of the campaign can range from a mere village isolated in some hostile wilderness nycar.wordpress.com (in a 'colonial' setting *) [or 'RPGing' in a Mordheim-like town link ] to a whole continent link link . As for the practical approach, some Imagi-Nation builders start with buying link (or moulding link ) the minis, other with designing the background: the army theduchyofmuedail.blogspot.com link , the country's history syldavianchronicle.blogspot.com or political situation link and plots link the cast of characters link and their interactions schloss-neuhaus.blogspot.com
. Another justification is that with Imagi-Nations the player is not restricted / channeled by historical precedents. Specially this avoids any temptation of introducing (biased) 'national characteristics'; while -with a little simplification- professional armies of mid-18th C. Western Europe were mirror images of each other, differently colored. thus you can fully benefit from the simplicity of the Lace Wars OOB (so propitious to Imagi-Nations TMP link ) -this simplicity allowing C. Grant to successfully re-fight large historical battles, such as Fontenoy and Mollwitz, with only three troop types: infantry, cavalry, artillery. And if your 'not really Prussians'' performances are abysmal, neither you impose a sacrilegious change to History, nor you sully the memory of Frederick. With regard to uniforms, with fictional ones you avoid the risk to being assaulted (though Lace Wars gamers seem less prone to nitpicking than those of later H&M periods) for your personal interpretation of French off-white, British red or Swedish blue link
And if so inclined you can exploit -within reason link – the historical pageantry link . . Finally your Imagi-Nation and its army are your personal creation, your 'child'. With all the information nowadays available, in printed form and on the internet, everybody and his brother can field a perfectly accurate historical army (though I reckon it would be less easy with a Portuguese or Neapolitan one!). Thus historical armies are like thriving ubiquitous biological species: common, found everywhere and not potentially endangered. While your imaginary army is like an endemic biological species: living only in one place, extremely rare -unique, actually, and thus *so* precious. And it is YOUR achievement. --- *: "a colonial setting": unless you suppose a centuries-old divergence from 'our' History (e.g. a successful Viking Vinland link oversea warfare will be totally different from the 'Lace Wars' as we understand and love them TMP link . Yet full of unusual potentialities for small-scale campaigns. Featherstone described one such set during the FIW, but you are not restricted to historical British and French struggles: to this pair you can add (somewhere in our Minnesota – Dakota?) Irish refugees, Jacobite exiles, stubborn Presbyterian Scots who refused the Act of Union, French Huguenots, displaced Dutch whose ancestors leaved New Amsterdam when it became New York, Swedes whose ancestors migrated when Ny Swedige was 'Britannized'
If the Russian attention to Alaska dates from Peter the Great you can even add Cossacks to the mix. A patchwork of rival mini-colonies of complex sympathies / antipathies. A solo wargamer could use only a pair of such (+ Indians), but the setting would be propitious for a multi-player campaign implying few minis but a lot of diplomacy -a kind of 18th C. Mordheim / Necromunda scattered / spread out in the wilderness.
The Gulf of Mexico – Caribbean area is equally rich of possibilities: with attention of the major European Powers distracted by the WASS, what about: - a 'Pirate federal Republic' centered on Tortuga and Nassau (with a 'Pirettes' island link ?), - a Spanish island turned independent -a golden opportunity for the headswapper to field those archetypal 'Spaniards' of pirate movies, in WSS uniforms but wearing morions instead of tricorns, - an independent 'Black' Haiti, closely associated with the Maroons and Seminoles of Florida (voodoo, witch doctors link , zombies perhaps?), - Lafitte's 'Royaume de Barataria' some 75 years earlier in time, - a thriving Scot colony (now independent) of Darlen / new Caledonia TMP link , - 'more than historical' Danes and Dutchmen – and remember even Courland tried to colonize Tobago! In Africa and the Indian Ocean link , besides the historical British descents on French Senegal and the 'Republique de Libertatia' in Madagascar, all types of refugees mentioned above could have tried to carve themselves a new country ('Afrodizia'?). Specially, the Dutch South Africa could be a haven for persecuted Protestants (French Huguenots, historically), leading to an early form of Stirling's 'Domination of Draka' link
. Actually -with a readjustment of relative numerical strengths, to balance the lower effectiveness of 18th C. flintlocks as compared to 19th C. rifles- the so popular 'Victorian colonial warfare' can be enjoyed with minis in tricorns. |
Count Lubomirski | 22 Jan 2010 7:20 p.m. PST |
If I may jump on Impala's thread and ask a question that has intrigued me. I know that when one decides to build an army for an "imagi-nation" as a practical measure one is constrained to the commercial historical figures available so one would, for example, use actual Prussian figures for their "Germania" troops. What I would like to ask you imaginative fellows is
Do you keep to your theme of using all one nationality or do you mix and match by say, using Prussian musketeers, Austrian grenadiers and French cavalry? I must say that creating an "imai-nation" has always interested me but unfortunately the chaps I game with are, shall we say, a bit stringent on the historical accuracy of the troops in use. |
timurilank | 23 Jan 2010 12:59 a.m. PST |
Count Lumbomirsk wrote, "Do you keep to your theme of using all one nationality or do you mix and match by say, using Prussian musketeers, Austrian grenadiers and French cavalry?" Within the ten regions of the Imperial Reich, there were 2,000 states of which 300 were obligated to provide troops. The collection of uniform types you present would not be too out of place. As long as you do not exceed historical ratios of troop types, there should not be that much resistance. As for flags, let your imagination run rampant. Cheers, |
abdul666lw | 23 Jan 2010 1:09 a.m. PST |
@ Count Lubomirski If the army of "Germania" is made only of Prussian minis, it's only because it is a Prussian army under an assumed name, but still able to enter historical games -and later to be sold- as an historically accurate Prussian force. No such restriction exists if you build an 'avowed' imaginary army. The only practical limits are the minis commercially available and your conversions skills (e.g. headswapping to obtain 'Austrian' grenadiers with mitres). For me I'd NOT mix 'unconverted' Austrian musketeers and Prussian grenadiers *in the same unit* -the cut of the coat would not be that different *within a given battalion*- but there is no 'intellectual' difficulty to use different 'nationalities' for different units; specially if of different recruitment -'foreign mercenaries' of various nationalities, the cut of their uniform still reflecting their origin, vs 'nationals'; or regiments from Catholic vs Protestant (or even Orthodox or Muslim) counties shires. If your country is a Confederation / League, each component can follow its own fashion soweiterleague.blogspot.com . Or for different troop types: if you browse the blogs associated e.g. to 'Elector vs Emperor' emperor-elector.blogspot.com you'll see that many contributors when coloring David's NBA templates nba-sywtemplates.blogspot.com to design their uniforms, use e.g. Prussian cuirassiers, Austrian cavalry, French dragoons, British infantry for the 'line' and Russian for the 'militia', &c
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abdul666lw | 23 Jan 2010 2:47 a.m. PST |
@ Count Lubomirski (continued once the 'TMP membership'restored after mantenance) With imaginary armies you can *also* mix troops from (slightly) different chronlogical origin: for instance having in the same army French WSS Maison du Roy for your Household cavalry (these types are conservative) and AWI British light dragoons (these types are innovative). You can widen further the time span when it comes to 'exotic' types, e.g. having Late Renaissance Croats and Balkanics as light troops; symmetrically Napoleonic Tyroleans in short leather breeches(preferably with the flat top of their hats sanded down to a rounded one) could appear as mid-18th C. Alpenjäger. Janissaries can be 'wild' auxiliaries, or an elite Guard as in Poland
What counts is the pageantry, the *color*. It's true that many Imagi-Nation builders are isolated, or play mainly solo when it comes to this side of their hobby. Then, no one compels you to use expensive metal minis here: 1/72 plastics have their fans frundsbergfs.blogspot.com lagerburgduchy.blogspot.com offer a respectable choice link and, if I remember well those Bob O'Brien articles of old on how to convert Airfix Napoleonic cuirassiers to Roman cavalrymen, are specially propitious to headswappings and more generally conversions. And, for a 'solitary pleasure' activity, you could be content with a 'less than display cabinet grade' painting.. Hoping to read more from you on this exciting topic. |
abdul666lw | 23 Jan 2010 5:35 a.m. PST |
Other possibilities: - Napoleonic guerilleros in short breeches become 'alternate' fusilieros de montana (historically that kind of light infantry served also in Italian alps), - Mexican soldados de cuera (the shielded lancers) become jinetes in 'alternate' Europe (again I'm not fond of the flat top of the hat for European 18th C.), - Napoleonic mamelucks, their (typical of the 19th C.) high plume removed, become turcopoles (buy only standard-bearers to build a unit of lancers); Bonaparte's Dromadaires in Egypt, once mounted on a horse, are another possibility, - Quasi-Napoleonic Nizam-Cedit picture combine nicely H&M European equipment and weapons with a 'Turkish' costume, - historically, in the 18th C. Spain already had in North Africa 'native' cavalry quite similar to the early French spahis picture : Spaniards were not ready to bring back muslim fighters to their homeland, but an Imagi-Nation could be spared such qualms, - by 1750 kings and marshalls were still portayed in 3/4 armour: why not a full unit of (traditionalist) Guard cavalry -headswapping giving such Late Renaissance minis a (feathered) tricorn, - AWI Marbleheaders link can become militia from some harbour, - FIW French Marines link or Bussy infantrymen link in fatigue cap, and GNW Norwegians in karpus picture / kabuds picture can become mid-18th light types, &c., &c.
: you'll readily have other possibilities coming to mind. |
abdul666lw | 23 Jan 2010 7:02 a.m. PST |
Do you mix and match by say, using Prussian musketeers, Austrian grenadiers? Grenadiers' coats could have more lace (as for the early British ones), lapels (as for some WAS light troops), but would be of the same general cut as the mousquetiers' / fusiliers'. Thus for me I'd mix Prussian mousquetiers with Austrian grenadiers *in the same battalion*. Standing units of grenadiers are another matter: for instance it seems that some French Guards, at some time, had half-lapels (rather uncommon in France) and a very German-looking mitre. Thus, an imaginary army with 'line' infantry in uniforms of 'Prussian' cut can well include a 'Guard' regiment in Austrian / French uniform and bearskin. Better to have the 'Guard' types in larger / looser-fitting coats than the 'line'. On the other hand, one can advocate the use of 'Prussian' infantrymen (or Russians in waistcoat) for the light company of a battalion in basically 'French' uniform: the 'skimpy' lighter coat fitting for the 'nimbleness' required by their peculiar function. |
abdul666lw | 24 Jan 2010 6:04 a.m. PST |
I must say that creating an "imagi-nation" has always interested me but unfortunately the chaps I game with are, shall we say, a bit stringent on the historical accuracy of the troops in use. Indeed, according to the 120-some specialized blogs I know, most of the Lace Wars Imagi-Nations 'creators' either are isolated wargamers playing solo, or while meeting 'live' opponents when using their historical armies, play mainly solo (with the occasional complicity of a visitor or obliging family member) when it comes to their 'fictional' campaign. Wargaming with Imagi-Nations *can* be a 'social activity': e.g. the 'Wars of Arcadian Glory' members.axion.net/~murdock and the 'Not Quite the Seven Years War' link , even develop into a mammoth multiplayer campaign Tony Bath's 'Hyboria' fashion link ; but this remains exceptional. Since a war require two sides, most Imagi-Nation creators: - Either field their fictional army against some contemporary 'historical' force they already had (this later keeping its name and nature, or becoming for the circumstance Oysterian, Brownwicked, Muscovian, Hispanish or whatever): in these case their Imagi-Nation generally began as a pet side-project -a single fictional regiment or mixed Frei Korps added to a 'historical' army as supposedly sent a (fictional) allied statelet [just an excuse to paint an unit in some pleasant original uniform]- then grew up to a full-fledged battleforce and gained a rich 'background' of its own. - Or from the start create a pair of 'hereditary arch-enemies': currently the 76 contributors of the 'Emperor vs Elector' collective blog TMP link 'rule' 116 major 'true', fully original Imagi-Nations (and a score of minor 'allies').
Such isolated wargamers did have to make do with Imagi-Nations because of their 'loneliness': on the contrary their very isolation brought them freedom. Not being restricted / suppressed by the preferences, prejudices, tastes and wishes of potential 'partners', they could play exactly how and what they want: a campaign set on a map scaled to their project, with armies in pleasant original uniforms (and unburdened by 'national characteristics'!). |
abdul666lw | 27 Jan 2010 2:38 a.m. PST |
A point that may favor Imagi-Nations to some wargamers is precisely their fictitious nature -a theatrical setting, somehow. If you think a second about it, to associate war with game is rather abominable, obscene. Then, children *can* innocuously 'kill' each other -"Bang! You're dead!"- when playing cow-boys and Indians or pirates and Spaniards or whatever: children are innocent but not stupid: how deeply taken by their games, they fully know that it's not serious, that they are merely playing. Campaigning with imaginary countries and armies implies some 'standing back', insures -even if not explicitely going as far as pitching the cheese-named regiments of Fromagere against the beer-named regiments of Alemark- that the hobby is not taken *too* seriously. That the players are not 'seriously' undertaking bloody 'military simulations', but are acknowledging they are adults playing with toy soldiers. With the innocence of children. |
R Dean | 07 Feb 2010 7:59 p.m. PST |
I like the Alemark vs Fromagere concept. My son and I have joked about applying a similar idea to a Not Quite Italian Wars Renaissance structure, where we'd use the names of pasta shapes for countries and leaders
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abdul666lw | 08 Feb 2010 6:05 a.m. PST |
For historical gamers blaming Imagi-Nations builders for the 'fanciful' uniforms they design, as well as for the most 'daring' of the later: thanks to a recent post on another TMP 18th C. message board TMP link -> link , look at the Carabinero-lancero Husar, Guardia del Virrey del Peru, 1815 link picture Veteran readers of 'Military Modelling' may remember an April Fools' Day uniform description that looked quite similar [with some features of the -equally historical- 'Immortals Horse Guard' of the last (and late) Shah of Iran, as they appeared at the 2500th birthday parade]
Will an Imagi-Nation creator dare to field a regiment in such extraordinary uniform? Rather easy to obtain by headswapping, giving a 'Napoleonic Carabinier' caterpillar helmet to a hussar standard-bearer. Look on the face of any commentator muttering 'This time you went too far!', when he learns that the uniform is historical
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