"Looking for unusual scenarios" Topic

On 2 Oct 1942 a FM1 Pete biplane float plane from the Chitose shot down a B-17 that was going to attack the Japanese Nisshin. Robert

"Six Ro.43 launched from light cruisers played a role in spotting the British fleet during the battle of Calabria, in the opening rounds of the war.[4] One of them, departing from the cruiser Eugenio di Savoia, kept visual contact with the battleship HMS Warspite during the exchange of fire between the British capital ship and the Italian battleship Giulio Cesare before being chased off by a Sea Gladiator from the carrier HMS Eagle.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAM_Ro.43

Here is one I hadn't heard of before. Buffaloes in Crete. Robert

A not very distinguished assignment
[What follows are notes from Christopher Shores et al: Air War for Yugoslavia Greece and Crete 1940-41 (London: Grub Street 1987) -- Dan Ford]

805 Squadron formed Feb 1941 with 12 Fairey Fulmar two-seat fighters, carrier capable, to support a planned invasion of Rhodes, off the coast of Turkey, held by Italians. Squadron leader Lt Cmdr Alan Black, Fleet Air Arm. Based at Maleme in northeastern Crete. Three Buffaloes (AS419, AS420, AX814) along with 6 more Fulmars flew in from Dekheila (?) March 6. The Buffalo flight commanded by Lt. Rupert Brabner, formerly Member of Parliament for Hyth. The Brewsters were equipped with an antique post-and-ring sight, proof that they were Belgian 339Bs rather than the British 339E model.

Black: "The Buffalo was a delight to fly--very maneuverable (compared to the Fulmar). It would have been an excellent fighter but the guns could not be fired because the ends of the wires which were part of the interrupter gear, failed and 805 did not have the necessary spares." He does not explain what happened to the two .50-cal wing guns. Evidently there was a story abroad that Black thought so little of the Brewstger that he tried to swap them for Gloster biplane fighters, for he added: "At no time did I request that the Buffalos [sic] be exchanged for Sea Gladiators, but I do remember that in the light of the inadequacy of Fulmars against CR43s I requested that the Sea Gladiators, if not required for other operations, should be send to Maleme, to reinforce 805." (p141)

March 18, Lt. Brabner had his first skirmish, chasing a Ju88 without catching it--while flying a Fulmar, perhaps indicative of his opinion of the Buffalo. He was up again next day, mounted on AS419, only to turn back because of engine trouble. He crash- landed short of the airfield, and the Brewster flipped over on its back, fortunately without injury to the MP. A photograph shows it resting very sturdily on its plexiglass canopy--an evident tribute to Dayton Brown's roll-bar.

That seems to have been the Brewster's only sortie from Crete. In the British Order of Battle on April 5, 805 Squadron is shown only as having Fulmars and Sea Gladiators on strength, and by the end of April: "The two remaining Buffalos were also totally unservicable now." When German paratroopers over-ran Crete at the end of May, the Brewsters were apparently left in the boneyard. German photographers delighted in photographing their planes landing over the hulk of a derelict Brewster. "

warbirdforum.com/crete.htm

From a friend of mine on another site USN F4Fs in Norway. Robert

"On 4 October 1943, Ranger participated in Operation Leader, a strike on the harbor at Bodø in Norway. During this action VF-4 (Lieut Comdr CL Moore, USN), the redesignated VF-41, pilots Lieut (jg)'s Mayhew and Laird together shot down a Ju 88 and Laird followed up with an He 115 on his own. With five later victories over Japanese opponents, Laird was the only confirmed USN ace with German and Japanese Theater victories. This was the last US F4F aerial action in the African-Atlantic-European theaters."

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"For the F6F the only action over Europe transpired during, Operation Anvil/Dragoon, the invasion of southern France in August 1944. USS Tulagi with VOF-1 (Lieut Comdr WF Bringle, USN) and USS Kasaan Bay embarking VF-74 (Lieut Comdr HB Bass, USN), both squadrons, operating F6F-5s, provided coverage for the landings. VF-74 also operated a 7-plane F6F-3N night fighter detachment from Ajaccio on the island of Corsica. On the day of the invasion, 15 August, VF-74 flew 60 sorties, VOF-1, 40 sorties, all ground support missions.

On the morning of 19 August, the first German aircraft, three He 111's, were spotted by a four-plane division of VOF-1 pilots. The Americans were too short on fuel and could not attack. Two of the Americans were forced to land on HMS Emperor due to their fuel state. Later that day, two He 111's were spotted by another VOF-1 division and were promptly shot down, this occurring near the village of Vienne. Lieut Poucel and Ens Wood teamed up to bring down one and Ens Robinson brought down the second. Soon thereafter, in the same vicinity, a third He 111 was shot down by Ens Wood. "

Sept. 14 1941. A Hurricat attack on a FW-200 .

Robert

From Low and Slow: A Personal History of a Liaison Pilot in World War II by Don Moore. San Antonio Heights Publishing Co., 1999.,

"Moore once had a dogfight with a Zero: two cannon and two machineguns vs. a Piper Cub armed only with a carbine. As long as the planes were closely entwined, Moore had the upper hand, since he could turn inside the Japanese fighter. Then the Zero moved off, setting up for a fast attack that the 65 hp Cub couldn't have dodged. Moore dove for home, and he and his rear-seat "gunner" were out of the Cub and into a trench before the Zero passed over."

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Courtesy of DBS303.

don't believe there were any Italian seaplanes in East Africa – certainly no mention in Sutherland and Canwell's "Air War East Africa." The S81s of 10 Squadriglia may have had a maritime reconnaissance role, since a naval officer, Franchini, won a posthumous Gold Medal after the aircraft in which he was an observer was shot down over the sea by a Wellesley off the Eritrean coast.

(There is an unusual scenario for you – Wellesley vs S81… The Wellesley's fixed MG jammed during the initial attack and the Italian was finished off by the rear gunner.)

I wonder if Tommi is still around. His site is dead :(. Robert

The MISS ME was an unarmed Piper Cub. While spotting for the US artillery her pilot saw a similar German plane doing the same thing. He dove on the German plane and he and his co-pilot fired their pistols damaging the German plane enough that it had to make a forced landing. Whereupon they landed and took the Germans prisoner. I don't know where they put them since the MISS ME only had 2 seats.
Mark Anderson wrote: "In regards to the duel of two spotter aircraft doing battle during the last days of WW2, Cornelius Ryan wrote of the incident in his book Last Battle. While enroute to scout the area around Berlin Lts. Duane Francies and William Martin, in the last "dogfight" between Americans and Germans in WW2, took on a Fieseler "Storch" under pistolfire from their L-4 Cub, forced the Storch to crash land and its two occupants to be captured by an American troop convoy which had watched the action from below. The above account was also verified to me by correspondence from Mr. Martin in 2003."

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"the last Japanese aircraft destroyed in World War II were by a Convair B-32, "Hobo Queen Two," which destroyed two A6M Zeros on 18 August 1945."

Robert

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R-203 flown by buntaicho from carrier IJN Kaga in early phase of Second China incident, Aug-Sept, 1937. Kaga's tail code R- was used until first half of September, 1937. The main group of Type 94 kanbaku attacked Chao-er Airfield where Curtiss Shrikes from the Chinese 9th Group was being armed for a raid. The Shrikes took off in a hurry and managed to down two of the Type 94 (R-216 was flown by PO3c Tanaka and ditched in Hangchow Bay, R-218 was flown by F1c Koyanagi and crashed near Chao-er Airfield; both were wingmen in the 26th Shotai). INFO CREDIT: Mr. Raymond Cheung.

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An unusual engagement that took place in these parts was that of Wg Cdr Ira 'Taffy' Jones, Station Commander of RAF Stormy Down, a training base near Bridgend, South Wales. A WW1 RFC veteran with over 40 kills in that war, he became increasingly frustrated and angry while listening to reports of Ju-88s bombing Swansea and 92 Squadron at RAF Pembrey completely failing to intercept them.

When another report came in from the Observer Corps, of a single Ju-88 (probably a post-raid damage assessment aircraft) approaching at 5,000 feet, he took off in an unarmed Hawker Henley target tug. Diving on the Ju-88 out of the sun and with his blood up, he fired very lights at the cockpit of the enemy bomber, bouncing at least one off the cockpit perspex and startling the German pilot sufficiently to force the German to dive for the sea in an attempt to throw off his pursuer.

Finally, a well-aimed burst from the German rear-gunner brought Taffy Jones to his senses and he headed back to Stormy Down, honour satisfied.

Another good one R Mark Davies. Robert

I've just discovered a very good wiki page to Taffy Jones:

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I had no idea that he was so local to me! He's buried about eight miles from where I'm sitting and I know the chapel very well (my grandfather used to preach there and probably knew him). Reading the Wiki page, he was clearly even more of a nutter than I realised! :o)

I reckon I could turn a Defiant or a Hurricane into a Henley:

Interesting Bio there R Mark Davies :). Nutty? Perhaps LOL. Just as nutty as to try and make a Defiant or a Hurricane into a Henley ? ;) LOL Robert

It must be the West Wales Baptist in both of us.

There's some great ideas for Franco-Japanese, Franco-Thai annd Thai-Japanese aerial unpleasantness here:

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That part of the world did have some interesting ones for sure. Especially in the Sino-Japanese area. The Shrike engagements mentioned above being a few of them :).

"R-206
R-206 was flown by F1c Imamura (wingman in the 21st Shotai). This plane was shot up by a Chinese Curtiss Shrike flown by Lt. Chang, Kwang-yun near Chiao-shih. The 21st Shotai became separated from the main formation and joined up with the B2M2. Lt. Chang headed towards Chiao-shih and ran into the 21st Shotai. Even though he was alone, Chang attacked the three Type 94. He shot up R-206, fatally wounding the gunner F1c Nakakoshi. Nakakoshi was hit 4 times, in the chest, abdomen and arm. The engine of R-206 was damaged and stopped, Imamura was resigned to crashing to his death but miraculously, the engine restarted by itself 200m from the ground. Imamura managed to land his damaged plane back on the Kaga. Nakakoshi died of his wounds on the 18th.
INFO CREDIT: Mr. Raymond Cheung."
Robert

Japanese Aircraft In Royal Thai Air Force and Royal Thai Navy Service During WWII

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Another one . Ex German Piper Cub VS a USAAF B-24 1945. Robert

Some photos of the aircraft captured by the Italians that I mentioned on the first page was posted recently on the
ww2incolor.com site. Including a couple of Fairey Swordfish. Robert

ww2incolor.com

Has anyone heard from Tommi? It looks like his last visit was in October. Robert

Lysander VS JU-87 in France 1940. Robert

"An Anson Mk I of No, 206 Squadron was shot down after a dogfight with a Heinkel He115 seaplane off Heligoland on the 5th of Feb 1939, one of the earliest aerial combats of the war. The Anson's NZ pilot, Lawrence Edwards, was the only survivor though badly burned and made a POW."

"On 29/9/39 a Do.18, K6+RK, of 2./Ku.Fl.Gr.506 was engaged in a fight with a Hudson, N7250 of 224 Squadron, over the North Sea. The Hudson crew believed that they had killed the front gunner of the Dornier during the fight, but in fact no-one was injured and the flying boat made good its escape with only minor damage from five bullets.

29/11/39 was a bad day for Ku.Fl.Gr.406 (the new designation of the amalgamated Ku.Fl.Gr.506), when five of the unit's Do.18s were lost on mining sorties. There was also an inconclusive engagement between a Saro London of 240 Squadron with a Do.18, possibly 6K+FH of 1./Ku.Fl.Gr.406, where both aircraft returned safely to base.

On 11/4/40, two days after the invasion of Norway, two Blenheim fighters of 254 Squadron on a strafing attack over the Hardangerfjord, met a Do.18, K6+AH, of 1./406 in the air at 17.40. The Dornier managed to inflict damage on both Blenheims, forcing them to break off the attack – the flying boat receiving just 6% damage.

25/7/40: The only unusual event that has been found for this date concerning Do 18s was a night-time collision at Stavanger between two aircraft of 2./406 which resulted in the destruction of both machines, but only one crew member being injured."

Source: 'Aufklarer – Luftwaffe Reconnaissance Aircraft and Units 1935-1945' by David Wadman, John Bradley, Barry Ketley, Hikoki Publication, 1997, ISBN 095189987

"In his book 'What were they like to fly ?' Sqn/Ldr D H Clarke describes an ASR patrol in sept 1940 south of the Isle of Wight in a Blackburn Roc turret 'fighter' in which he has an encounter with an He 59 floatplane (also on ASR search) at wave top level.Having no forward firing guns made attacking this extremely low flying target very difficult and they ended up flying abreast of each other as the gunners slugged it out.The Heinkel gunner was very good and eventually hit the Roc's screen,engine and fuel tank…they had just enough fuel in the aux tank to return to Gosport…but not to taxI in!!"
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I was just reading about a Catalina v G3M 'Nell' engagement off Singapore in '42. However, it doesn't seem like much of a fair fight, as the Nell flew round the Cat in circles, at about 500m range – far enough away for the Cat's MGs to be ineffective, but close enough for the Nell's 20mm-armed dorsal turret to tear lumps out of the Cat.

True Mark. Was the Cat downed or did the Nell break off the engagement? Robert

The Cat was downed. The crew survived the crash, but all with bad burns. Happily, all were picked up by a Dutch submarine. The engagement occurred on Chrstmas Day, 1941. The Cat (AH540/Z) belonged to 205 Sqn and was piloted by Flt Lt Atkinson.

Another interesting one: On 10th January 1942 a US Catalina of Patrol Wing 10 out of Sourabaya and an RAAF Hudson, of 13 Sqn RAAF, piloted by Sqn Ldr John Ryland, versus an H6K 'Mavis' flying boat off the Celebes. However, shortage of fuel closed the enagagement.

Another: A G3M 'Nell' of the Komoro Ku, piloted by Tomoyuki Kanesashi, encountered a Dutch East Indies Navy Dornier Do-24 flying boat of GVT-1 on 29th December 1941. The Dutch flying boat was eventually shot down after a 21 minute engagement.

Another: On 19th December 1941, four F1M 'Pete' floatplanes of the Kamikawa Maru engaged two trios of Dutch East Indies Glenn-Martin WH-139 bombers from 2-VIG-1. The second flight of Dutch bombers appeared 15-minutes after the first had been engaged. The third aircraft in the first flight was shot down.

On the following day, another six Glenn-Martins returned – this time as a single formation and bringing an escort with them in the form of two Dutch Buffaloes. Again, the four Petes intercepted and claimed one Glenn-Martin shot down, while the Dutch Buffaloes claimed one Pete shot down. However, in reality, the only damage was one Pete and both Buffaloes slightly damaged.

I've just realised that the Cat v G3M fight was poor Atkinson's THIRD engagement with a G3M from the Mihoro Kokutai! The first occurred on 14th December 1941. On that occasion, the two aircraft fired desultory shots at each other, to no effect.

The second engagement occurred over the South China Sea on the 18th, when Atkinson was attacked by another G3M, piloted by one Toshio Ohno (great name!). This was a stiff fight, with the Cat holed several times (including below the waterline) and Sgt E A Allen, one of the gunners, suffering a scalp wound. A loaned FAA air-gunner, Petty Officer Jimmy 'Jock' Heath continued firing and the G3M was seen to break away, trailing smoke from one engine. The G3M made it back to base, but had suffered eight hits and Ohno had been killed. The co-pilot, one Choei Futumura, had taken control ("Oh no! Ohno!") and brought it safely back. They had claimed the Cat as shot down.

Thanks for that Mark. You wouldn't think of a Nell being used that way for sure. Robert

Well it wasn't their normal role, but they certainly seem to have been used for maritime patrol quite a lot as a secondary role. I guess they had a lot of sea to cover and not enough dedicated patrol aircraft. The Nell did have excellent long-range endurance.

Oh and Nells were being used for long-range maritime recce (as well as attack) during the Japanese carrier sortie into the Indian Ocean in 1942.

Well Mark thats why it was "unusual" wasn't it ;) LOL . Thanks again for the additional info :). Robert

A DH Dragon reported as being shot down by a HeIII off Cornwall.

3-JUN-1941
"Shot down by He.111H-4. The attack was made from behind & above & the Dragon was shot down by front gun of Heinkel. One engine was hit, the Dragon banked & went into sea. Contracted by government & was camouflaged."

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Here is a couple of real interesting ones with a nice encounter to game.

"On 17. April 1945 they were finally allowed to enter enemy territory, but only two encounters took place with the Luftwaffe. One was when a single Meteor encountered a Fieseler Storch, which managed to force-land before being destroyed by the Meteor on the ground. The other was a potential encounter with several Focke-Wulf 190s, which was cut short when some Spitfires and Hurricanes appeared on the scene – cut short because the Spitfires and Hurricanes opened fire on the Meteors thinking they were Messerschmitt 262s."

neam.co.uk/meteor.html

For the time period Tommi wanted I read about an Egyptian Lysander that evaded a Israeli CS-199 Mezek whose pilot flew into the ground and was killed in 1948. Robert

I think Storch v Meteor has got to hold the undisputed crown for the most mismatched engagement of WW2! :o)

Here's another mis-match:

On Saturday 8 April 1944, four 211 Sqn Beaufighters were on their way to attack Chiengmai rail yard in Thailand. Sqn Ldr J S R Muller-Rowland spotted a lone Thai Curtiss Hawk III and attacked it, shooting it down. The Thai pilot baled out.

Another not really fair fight huh? LOL. Robert

"Although Belgium only entered the war on the 10th of May, 1940 the Belgian Air Force suffered her first losses in September 1939, ironically against her future allie, the RAF. On the 9th of that month a Fox belonging to the 5e Escadrille 'Aigle Bleu' intercepted a Whitley bomber of No. 102 Squadron that had strayed over Belgium during return from operations over Germany and attempted to force it to land. The Fox was hit by return fire and crashed over the estate of Count Gaston d'Oultrement at 6.00am. Adjt A. Genot baled out slightly wounded and Cpl. R. Alaffe baled out and broke his right shoulder on landing.
On the same day, and around the same hour another Belgian aircraft, this time a Firefly, returned to base damaged by return fire from another No.2 Squadron Whitley. The Firefly pilot, Sgt. D.Leroy du Vivier was unhurt. Later he was one of over 70 Belgian airmen who escaped to England to join the RAF. He flew Hurricanes with No. 43 Squadron during the Battle of Britain, and in January 1943 became the first Belgian to command a RAF squadron when he was appointed No.43 Squadron leader."

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Belgian CR.42s. 10 May 1940

"Then the last aircraft were preparing to land, the flight led by Capitaine Jean de Callatay spotted a formation of Ju52/3ms over Tongres. The transports were from 17/KGzbV5 tasked with dropping dummy parachutists. The three CR.42s took on the Ju52s and Callatay scored hits on a Ju52 near Alken at 05.30. This aircraft crash-landed at Maastricht. The Belgian pilot were immediately pounced on by escorting Bf109s from I/JG1 and the three Belgian pilots broke off the engagement and headed back to Nivelles thinking that the field at Brustem had been put out of action by German bombers. Callatay was later credited with a destroyed Ju52/3m. "

Then there was a Hawker Hart was caught over Old Sarum by an Me-110 in July 1940. The Me-110 won of course. Robert

January 11 1943. B-25s?
"Monday. We didn't have to go on patrol duty today even though we had to "stay by" for most of the day.
The boys that did go on the patrol shot down 2 "JU.52" and a "222 which is a six-motor plane, and only three in the world, Not bad!"

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It appears that a few Blenhiems were shot down by Hurricanes in 1941. Robert

Sept 42 . Two Martlets from HMS Audacity were credited with shooting down a FW-200 and on 28 Sept 1942 were credited with a Fiat G-50. Robert

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Another site that mentions the Buffaloes on Crete. Robert

"Eighteen B-339Bs were assigned to the Fleet Air Arm for service in the Middle East. 855 Squadron conducted brief deck trials aboard HMS Eagle during March of 1941. Some B-339Bs were sent to Crete for service with 805 Squadron. All flyable aircraft were evacuated to Egypt the day before the German invasion of Crete on 20 May, 1941. However, at least one unserviceable B-339B was left behind on Crete and was captured by the Germans. No other Fleet Air Arm Buffalo are known to have been captured by axis forces. "

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CA-5/Wirraway Vs Zero

"Served with 4 Sqn. On 26/12/42. The aircraft shot down a Japanese Mitsubishi Zero at Rabual Papua New Guinea. The crew were P/OFF John S. Archer and SGT J. L. Coulston."

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Love this pic of one of the Buffaloes!! Robert
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