"Games Workshop to produce WW 2 table top game (20mm)" Topic

"What great news…I wish them every success, I'm sure they will produce a fine new set of rules…."

Alternatively, I could have written:

"Outrageous! how dare they sully MY beloved period! I bet they ruin it…I'll never buy their terrible rules"

Either of these statements is as fatuous and as worthless as the other, in the end, So what? but then again,this is the internet.

For zero twenty three:

I have readed their warhammer historical rulesets, included their ruleset for wwi, and I didnīt like them.

The real issue to my mind is whether or not GW will promote the game in GW stores.

It doesn't with other historical rules it produces. It's been suggested that this is because they don't have the same stranglehold on figures for historical as they do for their SciFi/Fantasy set ups.

Yorkie. Bit about it here.

link

First … AHL … you DO know I was kidding you about the "liar" part, right? Certainly no offense intended. Sorry if that didn't come across as a intended.

Second … Rat of Tobruk … my post DID point out that I did not (and still do not) believe GW will ever get into the "rulebook only" business. While kidding AHL about (okay, not going there again), I said if the post had been about the Historicals line (now fully run by Forgeworld) then I would have believed it.

And I know some have trouble accepting that Forgeworld and GW are separate companies (even if one owns the other). GW makes rules to sell their minis. FW makes rules to sell a small selection of additional (resin) minis. Now that they have the Historicals line they also make just rules.

So a WWII rulebook only from FW I accept. Actually, yes, Firefight has been kicked around for some time here on TMP. This may not be that game (and I don't think it is, this announcement targeting 20mm), but I'm not surprised at all they (FW) came out with one.

Steve

"I have readed their warhammer historical rulesets, included their ruleset for wwi, and I didnīt like them."

Once again, proof that there is no irony like unintentional irony.

Big P and aecurtis: ….populated by a bunch of bigots…?
NO! Just people with experience of GW, basing their comments on that experience. I should know – I used to work for GW.
Guess you don't have a high opinion of us wargamers if you can slag off most of the people who post on these blogs..

Nazrat, "I'll certainly take a look at the rules, and I for one hope they do put out a line of 20mm WW II models, preferably plastic. I bet it would sell!"

Yeah, they'd sell. At about 50 quid a tank and about 8 quid a figure.

maybe they will just buy out airfix.

"I used to work for GW."

And? You're not the only one with some experience of GW. I suspect that of the posters on this thread alone, there are other former GW employees, persons who have had contracts with GW, GW investors, and perhaps even a few GW customers. What special insight do you possess?

"Guess you don't have a high opinion of us wargamers if you can slag off most of the people who post on these blogs.."

Nope. Just the bigots. But you appear to have totally missed that point.

I could say what I think about some of these arguments, but I'd probably get dawghoused…

Damon.

Well I don't play WWII, and as for 20mm, the only thing I do in that scale is Vietnam and I am probably not doing that for a long time, since it seems to be a dead scale/game genre around here. 20mm stuff is just a little too difficult to get at times…and 15 seems to be what all the cool kids are doing…

If it's done right, it'll sell…

If it sucks, we'll know real quick…

people who post on these blogs

Blog?
--
Tim

Looking forward to Zog head of the SS naziboyz with his spiky
kingtiger deathwalkerz, nebulwerferz and sdkfz'z.

The brief article in Wargames Illustrated said that the rules were also suitable for use with 15mm miniatures.

Actually I would be quite pleased if they did do a fantasy WWII game as it is a genre I have been warming to over the past few years. As it is I can't see this as anything other than an addition to the growing Warhammer Historical line which has brought us:

Warhammer Ancient Battles – renewing interest in 28mm ancients

Warhammer ECW – ditto for 28mm ECW

Warmaster Ancients – giving prominence to some lovely 10mm ancient lines

Trafalgar – a chance to use all those lovely napoleonic ships

and other stuff that I have never played but some people actually like (Wild West/Great War).

I always find it amusing that some gamers confuse increased choice with armageddon. I personally don't like the Black Powder or Napoleon rules that have recently been published but just because they are slick and glossy with a matching pricetag does not mean that I can no longer play with the rules that I personally like. When Becks launced their new lager I didn't throw up my hands and weep that this would be the end of Rotting Badger Scrot Mild (my favourite local tipple but hardly a market leader). If it gets produced and if it is any good (two big ifs) then it will be good for the hobby as a whole otherwise I think we are all big and ugly enough to not let this affect us in any way.

I'm not that big, but I have extra ugly!…so I should be alright then

Wow 70 posts!

Well not I am not a liar, and I will quote the exact source and what it says (Which one person already mentioned)
The article was in Wargames Illustrated (issue 266)

'WAB players from around Europe were treated to a bonus surprise when Warwick Kinrade of Forgeworld demonstrated the fourthcoming Games Workshop World War 11 game.'

'The game is designed for 20mm figures, although it well work equally well with 15mm (Ajustments will be needed 28mm) Intestingly the game seemed to owe little to the well known Warhammer Game system.

'The game is still a work in progress with a release date of 'Next year, – hopefully early on' planned. The core rulebook will be supported by further supplements which will include army lists, and further down the line, more theatres of war'

Now that sounds pretty reliable to me. I don't really have an opinion on it other than, if it gets more people in WW 2 history, especially the younger wargaming fraternity, that would be great, if it doesn't involve rolling 20 dice every time you fire a tank, that would also be great and if it means more choice of good figures (if they are indeed going to do figuues) that would be great to. I doubt I will be buying it as a system, but I will be quite happy to pinch their bits that I do want.

As long as there are no Tiger Tanks with spikey bits on them.

As long as there are no Tiger Tanks with spikey bits on them

After watching a FoW tournament with Shermans painted in fosforecent green with bronze guns, I wouldn't be shocked by Tigers with spikes… and skulls!

I wouldn't be shocked by Tigers with spikes… and skulls!

Would you be shocked by a necromancer Fallschirmjager officer who can raise troops from the dead?

It's been done.

I think GW has done a decent job with their Historical releases to date. They aren't all to my liking but they also aren't horrible. In fact, I actually like some of the WAB releases and while I haven't played it the WWI release has had many positive reviews. It is possible that GW could release a fine set of rules for the period and it should appeal to the market place.

Think about it; most WWII games have a boat load of tanks, even though the tank was reasonably rare on the majority of the battlefields. Many WWII gamers enjoy fielding the super tanks in quantities that are basically unimaginable, even though these beasties were even rarer still. Finally a huge majority of gamers and games feature full complement TO&Es even though these were virtually none existent. In my opinion many WWII wargames are pure fanatsy already!

GW hasn't produced a Ludendorff 6000 pt mega character for their WWI offering, what would lead you to believe that they will be any less serious about WWII?

Would you be shocked by a necromancer Fallschirmjager officer who can raise troops from the dead?

It's been done.

Oh my…! THAT is something I would really like to see!! So far it has eluded me in my FoW experience…

My understanding is, as the quote by Azhantihighlightning indicates, that the new game will be a break-away from the standard GW mechanics. That alone makes it intriguing to me – the fact that they're focusing on 15mm and 20mm figures is also interesting, as it seems to be aimed at bringing in the largest number of existing WWII players rather than at creating a new market.

AHL:
'Games Workshop World War 11' (eleven)? Now that sounds more like them.

So no one has picked up on my earlier point.

And to save people scrolling up to find it, it was essentially that GW does not promote GW historical rules in GW shops.

Of course it hasn't got a monopoly on figures to match as it has with WH and 40K.

But if it ever did put its historical stuff into GW shops then it would give one heck of a boost to "real" wargaming amongst a whole new generation.

"My understanding is, as the quote by Azhantihighlightning indicates, that the new game will be a break-away from the standard GW mechanics."

As Guy posted on the WAB Forum link above which rat of tobruk provided, the rules don't seem to follow the GW heritage but look rather like these:

link

Guy (TMPer gecoren) had also mentioned way back here on rat of tobruk's thread that he had seen these rules played:

TMP link

Gotta keep up!

Jeremy, I'm sure from GW's point of view, they already do quite enough to boost "real" wargaming amongst a whole new generation! And the next, and the next… GW generations are short ones.

Allen

Allen, if you'd ever seen my stubby legs you'd know why I have trouble keeping up! I'm lucky they let me sit at the big kids' table at all! ;)

charla,

Didn't you know all GW products go to Eleven?

:O)

I'm sure Rick Priestly, Jervis Johnson (both old-school miniatures and board wargamers) and others would love to have dropped the standard WFB/40k-style rules ages ago, but that would never fly with corporate or, I dare say, the majority of their fans. Should be interesting what a different approach will look like.

On the other hand, I do enjoy reading these threads. It's fun to imagine (one assumes) otherwise reasonable adults FROTHING AT THE MOUTH as they pound out another anti-GW (or anti-anyone popular) rant at the keyboard. It really cracks me up to see how hysterical people can get over at-present vaporware rules.

I agree with Rudy. I expect this to be nothing but a failure at best.

Would you be shocked by a necromancer Fallschirmjager officer who can raise troops from the dead?

It's been done.

They are only almost dead.

"I'm sure Rick Priestly, Jervis Johnson (both old-school miniatures and board wargamers) and others would love to have dropped the standard WFB/40k-style rules ages ago, but that would never fly with corporate or, I dare say, the majority of their fans. Should be interesting what a different approach will look like."

I heard a rumor that I don't give much credit that Andy Chambers wanted to revamp 40k, they wouldn't let him and he sold his ideas to Mongoose who turned them into Starship Troopers.

So far I like Warhammer Historical products, but with RoE out there, I see no point in switching. I fully support any product by GW that will enlighten their gamers and get them over to historical gaming, though. Although I had played historical games in the past, it was WAB that converted me full time!

i want to see a hero who suddenly comes darting out of a unit, destroys half the enemy army with a magical panzerfaust, and then darts back into the unit so that he cannot be individually targeted. wwii gaming has been a bit hollow for me without that.

Like all we need is another WWII set :)

I still say there is a HUGE distinction between Games Workshop releasing WWII rules, and Forgeworld.

GW has hundreds of stores dedicated to their products alone. You can fine everything from the rules to the minis, to the glue and paint, even terrain and dice. If GW were doing these rules "and minis" then yes, untold thousands of new gamers might get exposed to "historicals", which would be a good thing.

But if this is done by Forgeworld, then GW will make no mention of it in their stores. There will be no minis. No demo games. No Tournaments. The only people who will be exposed to the Warhammer Historical line will be current historical players. No new blood.

So from a "growth of the hobby" perspective, I hope it's GW doing this. But if the quote from the magazine article is accurate, then it's Forgeworld.

aecurtis, of course there are other people on this forum who have experience of GW. I watched the company owners change over the years from a bunch of real hobby enthusiasts to new owners who I think are just simply businessmen who are in it for the money and seemed to care little for the hobby as a whole. My personal feeling, and it is just my personal opinion, is that GW damaged the hobby, particularly during the 80s and 90s when it was just starting to take off.
I saw the sales aimed at young teenagers, then the prices raised far beyond the means of all but the ones with the richest parents. I saw other games shops who sold a variety of things (as GW did originally) bought out, limiting my choices. I saw GW pretty much corner the market in games shops then suddenly stop selling other companies products, causing many to go bust or shift sales away from the UK. I didnt like that. I wouldn't want to see them corner the market in 20mm WW2, then put the prices through the roof.
That doesn't make me a bigot – I just know GW's history.
Having opinions and experience different to yours doesn't make the other commenters on this forum bigots either.
Maybe they're just concerned about their hobby.
There may probably be nothing to worry about with this topic, but then again there might be.
People should be able to express their concerns without getting bittten.

Interesting news. 20mm seems like an odd choice, but I am not a businessman. If they do produce 20mm minis they are going into a small market and have the potential to control it. Savvy gamble or craziness? Time will tell.

GW is a spectator sport.

This is a relatively small hobby and ANYTHING that amounts to investment is good in my eyes.

I like WWII and will be as interested in these rules as I am in any other.

This thread is sadly mostly negative – surely buying is a personal choice, not sure I understand those who appear somewhat outraged, when they won't be spending their money on this rule set anyway.

Redace, a well put and thoughtful argument, even though I didnt intend this to be a debate about GW's overall contribution to the hobby, but I believe that is a very accurate summary and well made point.

If they do PTO first there might be a market out there for it (I'd be interested, at least). Otherwise I just don't see the point, especially with such a difficult scale when there are loads of excellent 28mm and 15mm figs out there. But time will tell, I suppose.

The 20mm WWII gamers are always saying that they don't understand why anyone would game in another scale. They claim to have loads of inexpensive kits that cover just about everything in depth. And they don't have "heroic" scale issues either, everything is scaled as it should be.

Oh, and it's cheaper too, than even 15mm stuff.

If that is even half true, I can see why FW is going for rules aimed at 20mm. You can refight larger battles on the "typical" tabletop.

And I have no issues with FW (or GW if that turns out to be the case) releasing any set of rules covering any genre.

But has there been anything official? Still seems like rumour to me.

"My personal feeling, and it is just my personal opinion, is that GW damaged the hobby, particularly during the 80s and 90s when it was just starting to take off."

Damaged *what* hobby? They didn't damage "the GW Hobby", certainly. And they hardly damaged miniature wargaming in general, which went along just fine with or without GW; I would not say that miniature wargaming in general was "just starting to take off" in the 80s and 90s, either. But then, I know my history.

Now one could make the argument that in the UK, at least, GW had an adverse effect on independent game stores. Of course, one could also argue that the proliferation of shows and the dowturn in high street shop sales doomed independent game stores anyway. But to say that GW "damaged" wargaming? That's rather silly.

Allen

The issue of the rules set being based around 20mm has a very simple explanation. Warhammer Historical rules sets are generally projects created by a few GW staff members who thought "Wouldn't it be great to do a set of rules for [insert favourite gaming period here]?"

There have always been a lot of WWII gamers at GW, mostly playing Rapid Fire with 1/72nd/20mm kits and infantry sets (I don't know about other places, but in the UK they're available everywhere, and I don't know of anyone who didn't have piles of them as a young lad!) so it's fairly natural that they'd want to create a rules set to play with the same models!

But has there been anything official? Still seems like rumour to me.

Guess it all depends on what constitutes "official" in your book. So far, we have …

#1 – An article (with a photo of a game in progress) in a wargaming magazine saying the game is under development and coming in 2010 at some point, and

#2 – The WAB newsletter stating that in addition to WAB v2.0 which is coming "soon" there are other products in various stages of development, including a set of rules for WWII.

Now, that's NOT quite as official as seeing the ad in White Dwarf with an article introducing you to the product that is "coming next month", and a pre-order date set. But it's not bad.

Whereas, there has been a set of American Civil War rules under development now for quite some time, and I am eagerly awaiting their eventual release. However, there has been no mention of this set of rules anywhere even remotely semi official. So those rules, while I know they exist, are still vaporware.

At least the WWII rules are starting to get hyped and mentioned.

This is good news. Lets wait to see the rules before bashing (thereafter feel free or even praise if in order).

As to 20mm its alive and well with massive new releases coming out all the time (just check Michigan Toy Solidier).

Plastic figures that are both much better and much cheaper than 15mm. Quick built kills ditto. Not to mention pre-paints that often cost about the same as unbuilt unpainted 15mm stuff.

If GW is going to support this scale its great news for players on a budget (or kids wanting to start). For $10 USD you can get 40-50 high quality figures – enough for a "army". Add an off the self ready to run FOW vehicle for $10 USD and your off and running.

Outside of FOW, 20mm has lots of fans. Rudy your world view may be shaped by catering to FOW players.

GW/Forge should be congradulated for picking a scale most people either have or can readily get for a very reasonable outlay. Good for gamers (if not all dealers).

TomT

allen wrote

"Now one could make the argument that in the UK, at least, GW had an adverse effect on independent game stores. Of course, one could also argue that the proliferation of shows and the downturn in high street shop sales doomed independent game stores anyway. But to say that GW "damaged" wargaming? That's rather silly."

If people were totally honest, microsoft, Sony and Atari did the most damage to wargaming by making computor gaming easy and fun and plug'n'play….and the shops that sold computor games were the ones that put wargames shops out of business, not Games workshop. Of course, some gaming shops survived by embracing card games, general games and including computor games. When one talks about High street sales, One should remember that total sales have not diminished, they have just switched demograph to include online shopping on the internet…so successful companies go involved in that too. Shows, (and this is based on direct feedback from traders who attend them!) are very much treated as a travelling 3d personal 'in your face' look and touch the product interactive website.
this explains why games workshop do not attend too many shows, They have a constant mini show going on in their shops everyday.
I is also worth pointing out that trader's show attendance is probably about 50% "shops" on the road, not just manufacturers. I would seriously doubt that shows have had any detrimental impact on local hops in the UK.

My current project is plastic 28mm ECW and it wouldnt be about if GW hadn't shown the viability of the idea.

In Terms of figure product and innovation in product, GW have done more for wargaming than any other company.
In terms of introducing people to wargaming and I include historical gaming, the same applies.

I still find their rules systems generally a bit bland…when not downright weird. I would have jumped at ECW 2 or 3 years ago if I hadn't been put off by the GW game

I have to agree with Allen on this one, GW has done no damage and perhaps is more saviour than sinner.

This thread has me chuckling over how divisive anything tagged to GW is and the absolute level of unreasonableness that exists with many posters on this thread. I am a rules junky that has yet to enter a 12 step program so I will probably pick up a copy if only to see if they have anything of interest in them but I probably won't play them because most WW2 gaming is designed around higher echelons of command than I prefer. Plus I like "detailed" moral and activition rules and have trouble with many of the abstraction that battalion+ level rules are forced to use. I freely admit that I do from time to time play WAB, WECW and am planning to play Trafalgar.

Having said that, my biggest laugh came on the first page of this thread when someone mentioned something about hordes of SS troops supported by wall to wall Tigers. I thought to myself that isn't that already being done by Flames of War players? don't the majority of WW2 players have a higher percentage of SS troops and heavy tanks than actually participated in that conflict?

Its a bloody game people. And at the risk of having already having fallen into the trap, please remember the old quote; "It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

Go back to bickering now.

aecurtis, "But to say that GW "damaged" wargaming? That's rather silly."

It's quoted to be factual , not silly. Do you have to be so ill-mannered just because you don't agree with someone? What do you think that says about you?
You clearly do not know your history, at least in respect of internal knowlege of GW at the time (late 70's to 80's & early 90's mainly). Also please note I Said I felt that GW damaged the gaming hobby as a whole, not just wargaming. I DON'T mean just your possibly narrow definition of miniatures wargaming, but the whole gaming hobby in general, which also includes fantasy, boardgames, role-playing etc. All this stuff really was taking off during this period, as I said.
It is during this period that specialist hobby shops began to proliferate around the whole country, 5 opening im my town alone where none was before. I'd say that was "Taking off".
This is when I no longer needed to go all the way to London or mail order to get things.
Were you actually around during this time? If so you must have had your eyes shut.