"HMGS-EAST Board of Directors Announcement (as promised)" Topic

Pat,

Thanks for the correction. Of course Wally and I knew nothing about hotels but we had s sympathatic Penn Harris Sales Manager, Joe Pfadt, who also played historical miniatures. He taught me a lot of what I know about hotels.
I aint so smart, just lucky.

When Dick and I first visited the Host, it still considered itself as a hotel to the elite of Philly what with the tennis barn and golf course. It took a few years and a change in the market to disabuse themselves of that idea.

What? No comment about a convention at sea? I checked rates out of Baltimore. A September 7 day cruise checks in at from $550 USD for an interior (that's $45/night per person and includes free eats). A suite is $1,250 USD or so and you get to see the sea, or throw your opponent overboard, from your own balcony. You bring your troops on board, you play games for 3/4 days and then chill out. The ship's crew does the rest. If we could guarantee 500 staterooms we could get a great discount and I would have a dozen bars to drink at and a casino to gamble in.

Bob Coggins

But will people want to get seasick without any dealers?

Where do you park your car securely for the week & how much does THAT cost?

"Put a miniatures wargames convention on a cruise ship for a week."

Avalon tried that three years ago:

link

And thought about it again for last year:

link

Don't know if anything is suggested by their not having scheduled another:

avalongamecon.com

What's next? Someone going to suggest holding a convention in Las Vegas? Pffft!!!

Allen

Seriously, wargamers would not be the only geeks (sorry, make that "enthusiasts") taking up cruising holidays:

link

Allen

Bob:

Setting aside our usual different views on history (of HMGSE), while much of what you say about the Host may be true, isn't the real thing we want there the meeting rooms and tennis barn? Isn't that really the rare commodity they have that we want, and no one else has – at least at that price?

And if so, then can't they really charge us anything they want for rooms or the meeting rooms? The point being, attendees pay the going rate in Lancaster (year round tourist destination) for rooms, and HMGSE gets the meeting spaces at a bargain, thus why they have been able to make so much money over the years. But, if we were to negotiate a lower room rate, wouldn't they just jack up the meeting space fee to cover the difference (like they did at the bar)? So then, wouldn't the fees to dealers be higher, and the entrance fees be higher, so wouldn't it be kind of a wash?

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't one of your own chosen wise men negotiate the last contracts with the Ike and the Host? Surely he knew all this too, but still got what he got.

Finally, while your economics of the hotel business may be correct, you cannot account for how they will actually react. People often cut their noses off to spite their face. The organization gave the Ike numerous warnings about their service problems, and they answered with a big shrug. The Host didn't seem too broken up about us leaving in July, especially when we ran back there (to a crappy date) for Fall In in 2010. Again, the point being, the organization doesn't have too many options without going to another venue that will be at least two to three times as expensive, and they know that. They know the market as well as we do.

Just FYI, but a year or two ago I went back up to Lancaster later in the summer. While looking for a room, I happened to see that some of the room rates at the Host were listed on Expedia at $300 USD per night (it was August). Again, I'm just saying, prices may vary, and while now may be a down time, that (hopefully) won't last forever.

Ratisbon:

Those were thoughtful and revealing observations about the tourist business in Lancaster. The general rule appears to be, that if a venue is a "happening" venue, the rates will be high and if the venue is in decline it will cost less. Of course, that is stating the obvious because it could apply to almost anything.
The prospect of land becoming so valuable that it leads to the sale of a business happens all of the time. I wouldn't be surprised either if the Host was sold to a developer when financing becomes available. Good call, Bob.
Our question should be what type of venue do we want for our event? Do we want an impressive convention hall with elegant accomodations, or do we just want a place to play with cheap accomodations? It appears you are in the former group and Pat Condray is in the latter. I think I am somewhere in the middle. I don't want to pay big bucks for a room, but then I don't want to stay at the old Congress Inn any more either.
The older guys might be willing to spend more for their comfort, but I think the younger guys just starting out would appreciate more reasonable digs.
It may come as a shock to some, but the profits we make as wargame miniatures manufacturers do not justify $170 USD a night for a room, $27 USD for parking and punitive local taxes.

Tumbleweed

I understand you needn't concern yourself with the OLD CONGRESS (briefly PASSPORT.) It was supposed to have been torn down and replaced by a HOJOS. Originally it was to have happened in June this year, but they put it off to August in order to take advantage of all us guys who play with toy soldiers.

There was a posted rate on the big sign outfront, but they told me it only applied to days when I wasn't there.

And they had eliminated bagels for the so-called Continental Breakfast.

And you are quite right. I'm not much concerned about the quality of the rooms since I'm usually asleep when there. Of course, in the past few years I do take time to download photos before going to sleep.

I wonder what HOJOS will charge, and if they will be ready in time for COLDWARS?

Pat Condray (WKPP)

historygamer,

In business you never know till you ask. At $100/night with a 4th night free if we promote pre con gaming and draw an xtra 50 room nights on Wednesday might work. Think also more food and drink sold.

I was not involved in future negotiations with either the Ike or Host and I have no idea who negotiated the agreements or the terms of the agreements.

When I was Con Ops VP, I walked away from the Ike when I couldn't get a straight answer – thus, Lancaster and Timonium. The Ike is owned by an invidual. He has an entirely different way of looking at his business. I could never understand it. His sales manager refused to meet face-to-face and I don't do serious business with persons I have not personally met. In addition the sales manager didn't have the authority to accept or suggest changes – everything had to be run by the owner, which is his right. I told the Ike I don't do business that way and said fare-thee-well – thus Lancaster and Timonium.

Tumbleweed,

The BCC and like facilities are fast becomming Moby Dick. They are big whales but only whales after all. Our initial attempt to get a reasonable agreement was amateurish but that doesn't mean a more professional approach could not be mutually beneficial.

For instance as a not for profit we most likely could get a tax free agreement for $20,000. For hotels HMGS should put up $100,000 to buy-out the Holiday Inn, then sell the rooms at $110 USD a night tax free making a profit of $10,000 or so a goodly percentage which would go to an agent to conduct registration. So, rather than paying $150 USD including tax our members pay a flat $110 USD and everyone is happy.

For attendance we draw in GW and make room for FoW. We get business such a M&T to subsidize the convention with a $10,000 sponsorship. Just some thoughts.

Bob Coggins

Thank you for tuning into the Condray-Coggins drone on hour.
This program has been brought to you by BNN – BNN the most trusted name in fake news.

I would never go to a convention on a cruise ship. Have you people ever been to the movies? There is ALSAYS a tsunami or freak wave set up to hit it broadside. Sufddenly, all my miniatures are on the ceiling, or whatever you call it on a ship.

I have not been on this thread in at least a week, and the only thing I learned was that the Amish Rake Fight game was really either a documentary or a roman a clef.

I am also reminded of this:
YouTube link
particularly the Archivist…

Frankly I am shocked, SHOCKED that no one has posted a Youtube link to this thread, and it's 5 pages long!

There is still a lot of land in Lancaster. Don't hold your breath waiting for the Host to be repurposed into a shopping center. Though I doubt this would happen, the more likely scenario is the sale of the golf course as the hotel is probably the highest revenue use of the land it sits on.

I agree that HMGS could probably negotiate a better deal, but has never been able to do so, most likely because of the inherent limitations of a volunteer effort.

That said, the notion that the answer to an inability to negotiate with the Host is to go to a tier one convention center and negotiate with them, obtain corporate sponsors, buy out entire hotels at discounts, etc seems a little out there to me. Usually when you are having trouble doing something the answer isn't jump up to something ten times as difficult.

And convention centers are not like the Host. They exist in a different level of cost and formality.

I am not saying that it could never work. But let's hit a single or two in the minors before we go swinging for the fences in Yankee stadium. An operation ready to put together a cost effective major convention center event with all items in place, cooperation with a GW, corporate sponsors, and bought out hotels with reservation agents should be eating the host for breakfast in negotiations. Let;s have on year where we can get them to clean the bathrooms before we take that leap.

"I was not involved in future negotiations with either the Ike or Host and I have no idea who negotiated the agreements or the terms of the agreements.

Bob, the two people who did the last Host contract were Fred H with Jay H at his side. The last person to negotiate the contract with the Ike was Jay H.

I have to agree with your assessment of how the Ike does business. It makes no sense, but that is my point about any venue. While your business assumptions may be logical, their response may not be.

Also, you did not respond to my main point about the Host, and the meeting/gaming space being the main thing they have to offer, not their rooms. I think you hit the nail on the head with your drink illustration of how businesses simply shift the cost to another item.

historygamer

I just spoke with Jay. He did not negotiate a contract for the host for 2009. Once again your inside source is wrong but to be sure why not simply release the contracts for everyone to read. That you continue to repeate lies by someone on or near to the board to defame others is sad.

And when I think on it Hubig has been gone from the board for 4 years and while its possible, its highly unlikely he negotiated the 09 Ike agreement

No matter how much water you carry for the members of the current board you cannont hide the fact that they, not Jay and not Fred, screwed up.

Bob Coggins

C'mon, Pat. Don't you think frozen PA in March is way too cold for you! I'd keep my toes in the Gulf Stream until about June if I were you. Merry Christmas and a Happy Winter!

Can we get BNN on Twitter?

Well, we were promised a decision "after the holidays". Then we were assured that the holiday in question was Thanksgiving. It is now closer to Christmas than it is to Thanksgiving. Still no word. Does anyone suspect, as I do, that this means that the deal with the BCC has fallen through and the Board is looking for an alternate site?

Please note that John the OFM's Holiday Special will be broadcast later this evening.

Bummer, I guess I missed it. FIOS doesn't even carry the BNN, how annoying.

Does anyone suspect, as I do, that this means that the deal with the BCC has fallen through and the Board is looking for an alternate site?

No. I suspect that the BoD can't get out of the BCC contract but is still trying to find a way to do it.

No. I suspect that the BoD can't get out of the BCC contract but is still trying to find a way to do it.

I would concur with you suspicions. If the BCC were a good deal, or there were a way to make it even half of one, we'd be hearing about it by now.

The longer this takes, the worse I feel about it.

Ratisbon:

I did not say he negotiated the contracts for 2009. I did not say a year, as we were talking about Hcon, not FI. He went up with Fred Hubig and sat with him on those contract negotiations. Also, Jay was the one that brought FI back to the Ike and negotiated those contracts (kind of ironic) – which recently ended. In this discussion, I am not commeting whether they were good or not, but you have been complaining about them.

Hcon had to break the Host contract that supposedly contained a penalty if we left early, thus in part why FI is moving there. Of course, the Ike had issues of its own, so it is hard for me to say that was a bad move.

Also, you have still not addressed the issue of the meeting space at the Host being more important that the rooms or the room rate. That is what we need there, not their hotel rooms. You leave that out of our arguments about reducing room rates. I would also point out that it is pretty hard to find a room in Lancaster in the summer or fall, having stayed there many times myself at non-HMGSE activities.

>Does anyone suspect, as I do, that this means that the deal with the BCC has fallen through and the Board is looking for an alternate site?
>

If BCC were dead then the BOD would be obligated to make it public so people could cancel their hotel reservations without penalties.

ScottWashburn 11 Dec 2009 7:19 a.m. PST
Well, we were promised a decision "after the holidays". Then we were assured that the holiday in question was Thanksgiving. It is now closer to Christmas than it is to Thanksgiving. Still no word. ….

*NJH: I think "after the holidays" means after the New Year.

Page 6, and still no ….. ARRRRGGGGHHHHHH

Remember everyone….they did say after the holdidays. They didn't mention what holiday or what year.

Actually, they did say that "holidays" meant Thanksgiving…

But unsurprisingly, no news.

-A.

I would say when your lawyer tells you that simply telling the truth and revealing facts can get you in trouble…. you are already in trouble.

Day 20? It was up to 25 last week! :)

Heather did come back and clarify that "after the holidays" was "after Thanksgiving". Check back on the first page…

She didn't say 2009 however… :)

Maybe next year we'll get news. Funny how the prices went up already.

"After Thanksgiving" is such an open ended time frame, isn't it?

Nope, still nuthin'

It is getting a little ridiculous… The one thing you can say about James being the "Communications Director" is that he did communicate… :)

"After Thanksgiving" is such an open ended time frame, isn't it?

Its like manana. As it was explained to me, manana doesn't mean "tomorrow", just not today.

Jeff

Maybe they meant after Mother's Day ???

Way back somebody mentioned public records. HMGS records according to the by-laws are public records and may be examined by the public. The only one who can't examine the records is me, possibly you, but ask on your own and step back.

"HMGS records according to the by-laws are public records and may be examined by the public."

True but what it really says if you read the fine print is:

"HMGS records are public records and may be examined by the public, but not members who request a peek at them… and anyone else we don't like."