"HMGS-EAST Board of Directors Announcement (as promised)" Topic

That's weird, I called that number and got a massage parlor in Silver Springs MD ????? Better try that one more time, may have had some dyslexia there…..

Hmmm…odd it is. I just spoke with him at that number a few hours ago. Maybe you accidentally hit the speed dial to your…

…nah, I don't want to end up in the doghouse on one that easy.

Neil

Orest

I'm surprised all this discussion is on TMP instead of the Announcements Forum.

Even more surprised that anything including lawyers would be concluded before HISTORICON 2010.

Am I to take it that a cost effectiveness comparison has been made between, as a minimum:

A. Going to Valley Forge (the only option acceptable to the Historicon Convention Team)?

B. Trying to get back into the HOST on a different July weekend (other than the one nearest the 4th of July.)?

C. Cutting a compromise deal with the BCC? (Either HOST plus 10% or HOST plus 90%)

D. Cancel HISTORICON 2010 as a bad go? After all, we cancelled HISTORICON 85 in favor of ORIGINS of the same year. Saving HMGS EAST $50,000 or more might be considered a reasonable justification-provided the BORG can tell money from the fecal matter of whales.

Pat Condray (WKPP)

"OK guys I got myself to the Norfolk International Airport. How do I get from there to one of the hotels around the convention center Bob talked about?"

The several dozen times (I don't think I got up to a hundred--quite) I've flown into Patrick Henry or Norfolk en route to one of the area's military bases, I just picked up the keys to the rental car at the counter and walked outside to the lot. But most of the major Norfolk hotels have airport shuttles.

Allen

Also Patrick Henry is now Newport News Williamsburg International and only about 10-15 minutes from the Hampton Convention Center or about 20-30 minutes to the Williamsburg Muster in February.

Would it be so bad to just call it off for 2010 and make Origins the big summer con for Historicals. Save some money and do it right the following year in 2011.

FROM THE BONGOLESIAN NEWS NETWORKS STRATEGICALLY STRATEGIC OPERATIONS ROOM (COMPLETE WITH MAPS AND COOL GRAPHICS!)

Murphy here. I've been contracted by the BNN to be their version of Storm'in Norman describing the operations as he did during the invasion of Iraq.
I've got some cool maps showing Baltimore here and…and…wait…that's a map of WWII Italian Operations during 1943 and 1944…hmmmmm….
Okay…well I've got this map of the BCC and…and…wait…no…those are old "Star Trek Deck Plans of the USS Enterprise…kind of cool to look at though…I don't think they have enough toilets on that ship….
Okay..well..we can kind of do this…Imagine this finger..yes…the English Bow Finger is HMGS….wait…no….that won't work either….
Hmmmm….Okay…we now return you to Kyoteblue in the Situationally Awareness Room for an update on "Whence Historicon?"

Stayed tuned to the BNN for all of your issues and answers….

Pat's back, there goes the neighborhood. Okay lets nip this in the bud before this thread turns into another you've contaminated.

A. Going to Valley Forge (the only option acceptable to the Historicon Convention Team)? Like anyone else we have have our own preferences, but have always been willing to work where we are told and with what we have. You've been told this directly from Bob and have NEVER heard anything to the contrary from any of the HCC; still you continue to repeat this accusation. Pants on fire Pat?

B. Trying to get back into the HOST on a different July weekend (other than the one nearest the 4th of July.)?
Maybe they should put you in charge, then we would shrink to where we fit the host. Heck, give you and your pen enough time and we can do it at Lapps.

C. Cutting a compromise deal with the BCC? (Either HOST plus 10% or HOST plus 90%) Compromises Pat, would this be like the Omerta deal Pete said he had with you? You know the one where for your support of the BCC, Pete promised you a room directly across the street at the staff rate.

Neil Brennan

OK Bob, I can do the Hampton Convention Center. So tell the board that it's OK by me. That should clear things up a bit.

Would it be so bad to just call it off for 2010

Damn straight it would be bad. That would give time for some idiot to convince the board to go back to the Host. (shudder) [humor people, humor]

Rich

>Pat [CONDRAY], would this be like the Omerta deal Pete said he had with you? You know the one where for your support of the BCC, Pete promised you a room directly across the street at the staff rate.

Neil Brennan
>

Hmmmm….

Damn straight it would be bad. That would give time for some idiot to convince the board to go back to the Host. (shudder) [humor people, humor]

Presented with the financial facts, the Host is a very viable option. Just call me the idiot with a calculator ;)

Orest and Neil,

Thanks for the updates.

Ralph

Rich,

Thanks for the confidence but the boards haven't sought my advice for 10 years. Actually the board hasn't sought any help in the recent past and only now is learning one of the prime lessons of business. You hire consultants in order to give you plauseable deniability. Absent, as the current board you have no one to blame.

Bob Coggins

Neil

To the best of my knowledge I have never been offered an hotel room in the BCC complex "at the staff rate," whatever that is. I assume that it might by the rate HMGS EAST, as a tax exempt corporation, would pay for staff rooms. Originally if I recall correctly the rumor said I would get the room for half price. That sounds like a better deal to me.

There is no doubt that HISTORICON can be fitted into the HOST.

Is there a doubt in your mind, or on the minds of anyone else on the BORG or the Convention Committee tha a move to VALLEY FORGE, and POSSIBLY BCC will be a financial catastrophe?

How many vendors do you think will opt for either facility if the activist revenuers attack?

Best scenario: assuming Valley Forge, how much is HMGS EAST expected to have to pay and how much money do you predict HMGS EAST will clear from this brilliant venture?

Pat Condray (WKPP)

There is no doubt that HISTORICON can be fitted into the HOST.

please elaborate, as i know many who think the host is bursting at the seams

larry

"please elaborate, as i know many who think the host is bursting at the seams"
Were these people actually attending the convention this year? I mean I would agree with them if they were referring to the gamers bursting at the seams. But I would disagree to the host bursting at the seams.

Joe
i suspect painting area in a tent outside is normal?
how about having lots of games in the dinner theater area with no elevator access? and no near bathroom? i ran a game on the stage itself this year. and one of the guys who doesn't walk so fast anymore commented on this to me.
or maybe dealers under the pro shop?
or maybe the dealers on the balcony of the tennis barn?
and the entire tennis barn and pro shop filled with vendors?
or maybe the one group of people (old dominion?)who has two rooms way back down the corridor is optimal?
or maybe it is when i wanted to check out a wacky racing game that i knew looked cool from a previous convention. but it was in some room i never even heard of. despite the many times i have been there before. eventually i found the room…when i came back from lunch and had to park on the far side of the hotel. and passed the room while cutting through the hotel.
or how much more parking is available that we don't use.
or how about the flea market that is so cramped that in some places is 3 wide at best. if one person is looking at goods on each side of the walkway, traffic stops?
so if we wanted to add more flea market space or vendor space, or even the dreaded 100GW tables…where would they go?(actually a large group like 100 gw tables works OK in the dinner theater , but then there are a lot of displaced games that need to go somewhere so the point still sands)
that is what i mean by bursting at the seems. we are running out of places to expand.
now not everyone who says that the host is full is for the move. and they have valid points. cost and need being the main points.
but if we were not at the host now, the host would not be on the list of where to move to because it is not big enough.
larry

Good point on the Host not even fitting the current requirments for the con. The con has moved several times since it started, so it is not a new idea to move the con again.

Let's hold it in Hampton, Virginia. For those Northeasterners who dread the traffic on Route 95, try driving down the Delmarva (DE, MD, VA) penninsula instead. It is really quite pleasant.
Valley Forge works for me, but I would prefer a return to the Host, even if it was a different weekend.

The problem was and remains that although it would be nice to have more space we are already at a space level that leaves relatively few options other than top tier conventions centers – which present a pricing and rules/complexity reality that is beyond what an HMGS con can accommodate.

The convention has been in Lancaster or Harrisburg for almost all of its existence and the attendee base reflects this. A move to Virginia will create massive upheaval and the loss of a huge percentage of attendees. No doubt new attendees from areas further south will appear, but I doubt enough to replace the numbers lost. And why would you move an event away from the loyal attendee base anyway? Yes, I know some people come from that direction and it would be a move closer for them, but that is a minority of current attendees. Again, assuming anyone wants to pay attention to basic management principles now it makes no sense to undertake a move so disruptive to the base of attendees.

All of that said, is it the worst thing in the world to say maybe Hcon has bumped up against the maximum sustainable size it can achieve, at least in the short term? So what if it can be 5% larger or attract a FOW tournament or whatever else? Frankly the loss of that marginal added growth is probably much less than the losses in attendance from ill-conceived ventures like moving to Baltimore.

Historicon isn't broken. This last one was altogether a fun and excellent experience and it does not need to be fixed. If foregoing a speculative few percentage points of attendance growth is the price for maintaining what we have now, so be it.

civildisobedience,

I could not disagree with your analysis more. "Top Tier" convention centers are just larger. The problem is not the facility. The problem is the lack of negotiating experience on the board. A lack of experience which begs being taken advantage of. For instance…

When I returned from Historicon I got online and got a rate for the very next weekend that was $20 USD less than the convention rate. Now normally one guarantees a full-house in return for a lower room-night rate. It appears the board is not aware of this concept. Thus, the higher room rate which costs the Society somewhere in the vicinity of $1,600 USD extra for staff rooms.

If I spend $10=12,000 for a marginal facility such as the All-Star, for Fall In!, I expect to have access to all the rooms in the hotel. There was another event at the Ike which locked our members out of access to rooms on the site. This could only occur because someone who negotiated the agreement did not see that all of the rooms in the hotel were contractually reserved for Fall In! attendees. Here's a hint for future negotiations. Its not the lies people tell you its the truths they don't. And the truth is because of a lack of understanding by whoever negotiated the agreement, the Ike was not contracturly required to reserve all of its rooms for Fall In!

I merely suggested Hampton VA as a future possibility. While we could expect to lose some attendees from the north, most likely you, we can very much expect to benefit from a location much closer to the economically wealthy South of NC, SC and GA. Neither would the accessability to 30 some military bases, a summer resort, a theme park and Yorktown and Williamsburg necessarily hurt.

When I was involved in the move of Historicon from D.C. to Harrisburg, the Southerners protested they wouldn't go north of the Mason-Dixon Line. Well some did and others did not and while we lost a goodly number of Southerners to local cons and to distance we gained by growing the hobby in PA till it now has the most members of the Society as well as a vibrant and growing community of historical gamers. Given the culture of VA, NC, SC and GA there is no reason to believe a convention located in VA would not stimulate the growth of the hobby in those states.

The corporate charter mandates the Society promote the hobby. Well the hobby has been promoted in PA since 1987 and even were we to move Historicon were would still be promoting the hobby in PA.

If as you imply Historicon has bumped up against its maximum sustainable size in its present location why not plant it in a new field to harvest new gamers? You would still have 2 conventons at the Host.

Bob Coggins

Sounds like from the recent "update" about hearing something in the future, he may be hinting that the convention is indeed moving and won't be at the BCC. That's what I got out of it.

The Host really could hold the convention for a little longer. No, we can't expand by 100 GW tables and apparently we can't hold the FOW National tournament there, but I'm not too worried about those. FOW is a slight concern because it would fit nicely. Most of the other items presented as reasons the Host is too small I would answer with a "Yes". We have had games in the dinner theater for a number of years now, we have had dealers in the pro shop "bunker", etc. The Host is somewhat of a "rat's maze", but it isn't that bad…

Newport News… I can tell you that our area (Raleigh NC) is bursting at the seems with relocated Yankees (NY/NJ, Boston, Pittsburgh, Detroit/Michigan) etc. Cary, the town I live in stands for Concentrated Area of Relocated Yankees. Not really, but that's what we call it. :) Moving to Newport News would not be as silly as has been said, but since the group won't do a demographic survey of their membership, they'll never find this out… Someone said "it's called HMGS-East" and was referring to the Northeast when he was saying it. Last time I checked, Virginia is in the east of the country…

Pat I always wondered why you were supporting the move to BCC so fervently… ;) Just a joke!

civildisobedience,

I could not disagree with your analysis more.

I could not disagree with that disagreement more.

I think Civildisobedience conveyed in detail how I feel. A move that upsets the majority of attendees to achieve the needs of a minority of attendees is 1 step forward for some, but could be 2 steps back for everyone.

I have been out of the net for the past several days and like many I have been awaiting the news and keep checking here for updates. I do want to respond to some individuals on this thread, however.
Re Bob Coggins: Bob, it may surprise you to learn I agree with a lot of the things you have had to say on this entire mess, save one. You mentioned the "mid-nineties" investigations. First, it was no witch hunt and we put a stop to many unauthorized expenditures and practices. Second, nobody on that Board – including those like me who ran the investigation – ever accused you of stealing. In fact, your name wasn't even mentioned in my portion of the report to the Board. We've been here before in years past and still you keep bringing it up. Why? It has absolutely no place here on this thread.
Re Historygamer: Don't know who you are or care, but you brought up my name – if that's me you were referring to earlier. Don't know what your game is either, but you either have me confused with someone else or you have mixed up your messages from another thread in error over something I've said somewhere else. I checked, and this is the first time I've posted to this thread. Last time I recall us crossing paths was in the WW2 discussion group where I supplied you with some info about Jumbo Shermans.
Re Orest: thanks for the updates….you too Neil. Some of us are waiting patiently for some news and would prefer delayed truths as opposed to quick speculations.
Toby Barrett, Thoroughbred Figures

Toby,

I never mentioned your name. You had resigned from the board when I was told the board was deciding whether or not to discipline me and others.

That said, there was no need for an "investigation," the abuse was evident. The then current board had already stopped the practices it disagreed with, which mostly was with directors housing their families in the presidential suite and charging food and drink to the Society, a practice adopted by one director and copied by another, a practice which I, Montemarano or Sossi never adopted.

That because one director had abused his trust others must be investigated was an insult conveyed by as I recall a registered letter with your pejoratively unprofessional questions. And I say unprofessional because for 30+ years I was a professional investigator and I found the tone of your questions so outrageously accusatory that no man with an attorney would have ever responded.

What is particularly ironic is this investigation opened the flood gates to the "rice bowl" boys, who we are supposed to thank as "volunteers" but in fact are anything but, being reimbursed to the tune of over $16/hour, when I last ran the numbers 10 years ago, in rooms and food and I'm not talking about the directors or their major schedulers and managers and/or event schedulers who work hard months before the convention.

Conventon directors use these featherbedding positions to exercise political power within the Society by establishing a group of welfare recipients who will always vote their best financial interests in elections for the board.

This resulted in sipping and singing society boards which exercised little oversight and less care. When some such as Fred Haub attempted oversight the majority attempted to remove him. When others attempted to take their positions seriously they were ostracised and attacked online till they resigned. The only possible outcome was what occurred, poorly negotiated contracts culminating in the BCC mess.

So Toby what you intended to "clean-up" was only made worse.

Bob Coggins

Bob Coggins

Well guys cancel me from going next year! I had to turn in my vacation request. So I canceled everything! Thanks alot you can keep your con I will stay in the Midwest for LittleWars and Adepticon and save my money. Mike Adams

"I could not disagree with your analysis more. "Top Tier" convention centers are just larger. The problem is not the facility. The problem is the lack of negotiating experience on the board. A lack of experience which begs being taken advantage of."

I agree completely that there is a lack of negotiating experience on the board, but that is not likely to change. While I agree to a point that the board could do better, I also feel quite strongly that there is a practical maximum amount of proficiency that can be expected in this area. I commend the efforts of past BODs and CDs but the society never has done a great job at squeezing the requisite services from the hotel. Whether it is inadequate bathroom cleaning, the years it took to expand the food services, the general adventures with the air conditioning, or the numbers of rooms made available for the convention, the negotiation end of things has never been the strongpoint. This is not an insult. All of these people are part time volunteers.

But you are dead wrong about a top tier convention center being the same but larger. They all have much higher overall costs structures, far more rules and regs (even if not a union facility that increase costs, service agreements with vendors for food, etc that may restrict attendee behavior, and a far higher level of formalization and complexity in contracts. Many are designed to extract a far higher dollar amount from attendees that Hcon goers will tolerate. Many are in urban areas where parking is an issue. Many would have multiple events going on simultaneously, with unpredictable impact on us and the cost/availability of rooms, parking, etc. I am not saying it is impossible, simply a far more difficult problem to solve than people want to think.

"I merely suggested Hampton VA as a future possibility. While we could expect to lose some attendees from the north, most likely you, we can very much expect to benefit from a location much closer to the economically wealthy South of NC, SC and GA. Neither would the accessability to 30 some military bases, a summer resort, a theme park and Yorktown and Williamsburg necessarily hurt."

Actually, I would probably go but I feel pretty confident that most of the people I know up here would not. No doubt people from that area who choose not to go to PA would come, however it is hard to make a case that you wouldn't lose more people than you gain. The "wealthy south of NC, SC, and GA" isn't going to replace the dollars in the NY-NJ-CT-MA area by a long shot, so there really is no economic case. But in addition to this, when something has been in a spot for a quarter century it is bad business to move it to a new market area. It makes no sense. Also, I think it is the wrong way for a hobby society to look at things. Even if we pick up one new attendee for every loyal 20 time visitor we lose, is that the type of calculation we should be making? How many loyal, long time attendees do we throw off the bus so we can beg for 100 GW tables or a FOW tournament?

No disrespect intended to the people who come all the way from the south to PA. I'd certainly support an additional event in that area and I'd favor the society helping to get it up and running. But the northeast supports three great cons a year so there is not reason to have fewer than 3 here.

"If as you imply Historicon has bumped up against its maximum sustainable size in its present location why not plant it in a new field to harvest new gamers? You would still have 2 conventons at the Host."

My point is that there has been no real evidence that massive growth is being held back by the size of the Host. Yes, there was the FOW tournament and that would have been nice to have. Yes, we use every nook and cranny of the Host, but that is fine. I actually kind of like that – I ran an event in July in a room I had never even known existed. We hear about some fuzzy backlog of dealers who want to attend but again, this is always very light on specifics and leaves me with the impression that if more space appeared we'd get a couple of extra fringe dealers and a few might take an extra space or two.

As far as attendees, any reasonable analysis of a move that takes the con to a new area or significantly increases costs or inconvenience is far more likely to reduce attendance rather than increase it. No case has been made as to where massive sustainable growth of the type that could justify the upheaval would come from. If there was any type of cogent, reasonable argument extant as to why we could expect the event to grow to, say 6,000 or 8,000 people then perhaps it would be worth it. I'm not sure it would make a better convention, but it would probably be good for the hobby. But to go from 4,000 to 4,300? To add 4 dealers and a tournament or two? Is this worth massive upheaval?

Let's shelve BS terms like "next level" and simply deal in an often neglected and little used tool – facts. We have a slow growth hobby with significant barriers to entry. It is not the kind of thing that typically experiences explosive growth.

Also, not everything is made better by being made bigger. Many things lose their character and appeal when they grow too much. I'm not sure that Hcon with 8,000 people is as good an event as Hcon with 4,000. Maybe, but it takes more for the analysis than just numbers.

neil- i agree that we don't have to move this year or next year or any year. but at some point the host has to go as there are just no more nooks to put people in. even with a slow growth hobby. the facility doesn't allow for any more real growth. (if you feel there is going to be growth, i know some people who i feel can make a logical growth that we are at or near the peak numbers we will ever have)

I think the board has to reassess the host and the alternatives every few years. and i feel it is part of the board's core duties.
but the problem is now even the usually disinterested middle ground people are seeing that something has gone horribly wrong in this particular move and are threatening to stay away.
larry

>directors housing their families in the presidential suite

that reminds me to ask -- where exactly is this fabled VIP area at the Host? I've always wanted to take my cap in hand and peer through the golden gates, and maybe get a glimpse of those sumptuous feather beds…

I thought that this may have been one of our 1:1 games….but in reality….

link

More here

link

Toby:

Sincere apologies to you, it was indeed a mix up. My bad. Sorry :-(

For those of you who are unfamiliar with the downtown Baltimore area, a walkway connects the Sheraton to the Baltimore Convention Center.

Tumbleweed
For those of you who are unfamiliar with the downtown Baltimore area, a walkway connects the Sheraton to the Baltimore Convention Center.

The Sheraton Inner Harbor is connected to the BCC. The incident cited was at the Sheraton City Center which is 4 blocks north of BCC.

For what it's worth.

YY

Ygu Ytm:

Thank you for the correction. I just assumed there couldn't be two Sheratons in the same four-block area. I would hate to think any of our attendees could be caught in the middle of such a horrific crossfire. But since the incident occurred four blocks away, no need to worry.
Oh wait….

PBN – I have actually seen the VIP area, once, a number of years ago. You have to take the elevator. I'm sure there are some stairs somewhere, but they aren't "in your face"… :)

The room(s) even have double doors like in Vegas baby!

It could all be different than when I saw it though… lol

Bob Coggins;
Three final points in response to your latest and then I'm going to try and bow out of this.
1. I corrected Condray and now I must also correct you; I never resigned from the Board. I served my complete term(s) and chose not to run again. That is not resigning.
2. You don't really want to delve into Sossi do you? Stop holding him up as some wise man without fault.
3. Are you seriously trying to make a link that the mid-ninety Board investigations were a direct cause of the Fred Haub affair and the mess Historicon 2010 is in now? Man what are you on?
Toby Barrett

Toby,

I stand corrected – you did not run again.

I know what the board did and why. As you imply Sossi did something wrong tell me what it was.

To the extent the board forgot its business is to manage and make decisions for HMGS NOT to conduct investigations or kick elected members off it lost its way in its enthusiasm to stiffle dissent by making it so unpleasant for those members who disagreed with the majority that they resigned. The board had consensus for the move given the absence of George, so the board made the decision when George was not there to wreck their consensus.

As Einstein said, "Consensus is the enemy of truth," And if I may add, for to achieve consensus you can never allow for another possibility.

Finally a thought by Mark Twain, "Consensus is all the fools in the town plus you."

Bob Coggins

Just a thought and I do occaisionally have them, let the local cons sort of rule in their respective states. TSS and the Williamsburg group come to mind. They are putting on nice cons where they are and worth attending. Leaving HMGS cons in the vicinity of Pennsylvania has always been a good idea in my mind. I have had the worst time at Maryland cons, for whatever reason I'm sure but surly staff comes to mind in a couple of them. I don't mind a 2 and a 1/2 hr drive to Lancaster. It's nice to leave DC three times a year as well. I'm not sure the HMGS cons would be served by going further south because of the large group of northeastern and midwestern wargamers that attend. I know many in the south would disagree but there are big cons around the south too. I think that the geographical area of Historicon in Pennsylvania has been spot on.

Just received a promotional add from the Host for December. $99/night including weekends and the 2nd night FREE. How about were we to negotiate $100/night for 2 nights and the 3rd night free?

Bob Coggins

the demand in December equals the demand in July?

The disfunctionality of Baltimore is evidenced by the fallout from this shooting at the Sheraton. The shooter was using a Tec9, and it is implied that he modified it to full-auto. After shooting one person, he is disarmed by two others, who don't shoot him with it (maybe he emptied the magazine???) but instead beat him with it so severely that he also goes to shock trauma.

The two who saved many lives are being charged with attempted murder.

HAHAHA well colonialplyr,

Which ever number I called, I doubt you would get happy news/ending from either one. Ill finishes that sentence for you though… Maybe you accidentally hit the speed dial to your… friend Neils house…. See…. that was easy… :-)

Mike

rmcaras,

Hotels measure their operating expenses(all the employees, linens, gas/electric, maintenence etc.) by rooms. They divide overhead by say 330 or whatever to determine the cost of a room and the occupancy they need to break even.

Hotels are not in the business of giving away rooms. Thus the December offer indicates that to break even they must make somewhere in the vicinity of $35 USD a room. So the deal makes money on an otherwise loss of $35 USD and puts some money in food and beverage. At $50/night, remember the free night they would be making $30 USD on the room rather than losing $70 USD on two vacant room nights. Of course all of this break even is based on an overall percentage of occupancy which I am unaware of but lets say 40%. So to meet operating coasts a hotel has to sell an average of say 150 rooms at somewhere in the vicinity of $90. USD Everything else, including food and beverage is profit.

When you are guaranteeing a full hotel, payng for the exhibition rooms and spending $100,000 on food and beverage you should get, a much better deal. We are not.

Conversely, when our members are spencing $10 USD more per room night at 1100 room nights that's $11,000 that is not going to our dealers.

Bob Coggins

Forget a better deal, which I agree we should get. We should certainly have more or all of the rooms set aside for the convention.

Bob, but none of that exercise, establishing break evens etc, account for the market. The demand for the room. The Host doesn't sell a room for $35 USD 0r even %55…especially in trhe summer, when the demand is historically higher.

and that is why a hotel room in the summer usually commands a higher price than the the winter [for cold weather cities of course, not Mexico etc].

rmcaras,

Thanks for your input but you are uninformed regarding the market.

We are arguably the Host's largest customer, in which case the room rates are negotiable. They certainly should be less than $100 USD because…

Contrary to what you wrote the high demand is not in the summer. Indeed out of curiosity I priced the rate for a room the weekend after Historicon and was quoted about $94 USD and that was directly with the Host, not a discount site auch as Priceline.

Till this discount, November/December were prime time as women from all over the east coast descended on Lancaster to buy for Christmas and have a girl weekend. So too are March and April big in Lancaster for the Easter/Spring season and if you don't think so look at the advertising and promotions for those two times of year.

Curiously, the summer in Lancaster for the Host, is not so much prime time. Its a time for family vacations and fathers are not big on shopping or husbanding the Kids around the theme park. They attend for one day and vacation at the beach. Therefore the demand in the summer is/was less than for the late Fall and early Spring.

What the Dec discount is indicative of is additional competition and the slow-down in the economy. Hotels are fighting for business and for survival. The Host is an old plant and a bloated outdated facility, designed for customer base which has mostly disappeared as tastes have changed over the years. When new, the Host was the state of the art weekend getaway for Philadelphians, the men to play golf and the women to shop. That business is gone. So too has the business of weekday and overnight getaway business meetings mostly dried up, with mostly only government events to pick up the slack.

The Host had to close its nightclub for lack of business, its once highly thought of restaurant cannot compete with the new eateries in the vacinity and it's once in demand showroom stands mostly empty.

Had you bothered to notice, its breakfast staff has been severely reduced and the food and beverage manager helps man the bar and the food stations at night. Had you talked with Fred (who has worked there for over 25 years) or the other bartenders you would realize the hotel has slashed staff hours a fact you may have missed as it hires temps for our convention.

Looking at it with cold eyes, the land is 10 times more valuable than the hotel and its facilities and it would not surprise me were the owner or buyers to tear it down and build a new facility or a mall. What is and will postpone this occurrence is the recession and tight money.

But if and when it does occur, or if it becomes less unprofitable to merely close the facility then what do we do?

Bob Coggins 

Had you bothered to notice, its breakfast staff has been severely reduced and the food and beverage manager helps man the bar and the food stations at night. Had you talked with Fred (who has worked there for over 25 years) or the other bartenders you would realize the hotel has slashed staff hours a fact you may have missed as it hires temps for our convention.

I pity the fool who tries to challenge Bob's knowledge of the Host's bar.

YY

yes, I'm sure his "bar kung-fu" is much greater than mine, as my illness forced me to give up alcohol years ago.

thanks for your insights and also managing to show me how deficient I am in recognizing the obvious. I admit I have not stayed at the Host, to rest or eat since the Country Inn & Suites opened next door. The rest of the hotel's amenities that we share [tennis barn, Distlefink etc] does not allow me a complete picture that you have.

I think you've indicted the negotiating prowess of the convention contract signers quite clearly, whomever they may be. So what should the rates be for future Cold Wars in March and Fall In! in October-November?

rmcaras,

One and all will be happy to know that despite my heart failue, which they chalked up to an unknown virus, my arteries, liver and kidneys are clean whisltes. Some can drink and some can't. But I didn't learn a lot of this stuff by just sitting at the bar. I asked questions of employees and got answers. For instance 10 years or so ago the price of liquor was suddenly raised by 20%. The reason was to make up for other losses.

Another instance, a few years back when Fall Inn! was at the Host, I stayed at the Holiday Inn. At breakfast I was surrounded by women. This led me to ask questions and get answers about prime time.

The problem is once you have paid a price for a room night or for exhibition space its tough to renegotiate it down because it causes hard feelings and strains business relationships. I don't know what our negotiatiog position is/should be or what's in the contracts. Keeping in mind the December offer the price should never have gone beyond $95. USD

I would approach it referencing retail offers not to be undersold, pegging a price reducition to their lowest deal but not squeezing water from the rock. Say a $10/night reduction or 3 nights at $110 USD and the fourth night free. That would amortize out to about $81 USD while selling more Wednesday rooms and thus more food and beverages – they set up the tables on Tuesday so there is no reason not to have early bird games. The exhibition room space rental cost would not increase = just a thought.

Here's another thought and I am entirely serious. Put a miniatures wargames convention on a cruise ship for a week. Right now they have scrabble and Monopoly tournaments on the boats. If we could block 500 rooms they would fall all over themselves to help us.

Bob Coggins

Bob

I know it has been a while, but I happened to stumble over the following comment of yours:

"In 1986 when Wally Simon and I desired to move Historicon to the Penn Harris, we presented the hotel's sales manager to the membership sitting as the board at Historicon 85. Based on his and our presentation the membership, sitting as the board, decided in favor of moving to Harrisburg. Only then did Wally and I enter into a contract with the Penn Harris, a contract which was available to any member to review."

The membership did not meet as the BOD at HISTORICON 85 to review the decision you made in 1986. For one thing, there was no HISTORICON 85. You convinced the membership to go to ORIGINS 85 instead.

On a lighter note, for the first few years at the HOST, the official position of the facility was that they were doing us a favor to let us hold the convention in the summer. They were much happier to have us in February/March. So they charged us a lot less and were more accommdating. Thus from 1993-1996 most of the corporate income was derived from COLDWARS.

Of course, that was partly because you and Dick Sossi decided to rent a portable AC unit to improve the climate in the Lampeter, and the price was less than I had remembered. It cost only about half the total revenue from dealers.HISTORICON 94 actually made about 8% of gross cmpared to 3.4% of gross for HISTORICON 09.

Pat