"Perry Royal Marines" Topic

Does anyone know if these guys would be usable as British infantry for Afghanistan, Sikh Wars or China Opium Wars.

I was wondering the same thing just yesterday.

??
The Sudan range doesn't have specific Royal Marines listed. The Naval Brigade are armed sailors in straw hats or ships caps. For RMLI you'd just use the British infantry and paint them up in the RMLI colours.

So I guess the answer would be 'yes.' Sort of.

For the Sikh Wars you'd want Indian Mutiny era figures in the shell jackets and shakos.

For afghanistan it depends on which war. Retreat from kabul you want early uniform with shell jackets and shakos. @nd Afghan War you want India Service uniform.

I use them for both afghanistan and the Sudan.

"The Sudan range doesn't have specific Royal Marines listed."

I suspect that the question involves the RM in the Carlist Wars range.

Allen

Yes. Sorry. I was referring to the Carlist War Brits. Actually how about the BAL. Their riflemen seem to be wearing identical uniforms to Rifle Brigade pictures that ive seen and the Bell Topped redcoats also seem to match pictures ive seen of the 13th in Afghanistan.

Ah. My mistake.

then I'd say no. the peaked caps don't work for the Mutiny or 1st Afghan War. Actually they look far too tidy for the Mutiny.

Opium Wars they started wearing the pith helmet.

Maybe I have the wrong war. But as i understood it at some time in the 1830s/40s British troops were fightin in China. Im sure Foundry had a small range of figures for it in something approaching Carlist war ranges. The peaked caps are a no no then.. but they do have figures in Shakos aswell? they would serve for Afghanistan/Sikh wars no?

sorrythat should read
"a small ranges of figures for it in something approaching a similar uniform to those in the carlist war range"

Edwulf, you're right – Foundry did have an Opium Wars range where the British infantry are wearing bell-topped shakos. I believe the Perry Carlist Wars pack that you're referring to is "ISA 59 – Royal marines charging". I agree that they look very, very similar, but I couldn't tell you if there's a difference in equipment, style of coat etc.

Several of the Perry BAL packs from their Carlist Wars Isabelino range can indeed be used as British troops in Afghanistan, China, Canada or Southern Africa during the late 1830s and early 1840s. Stretching to the Sikh Wars might be a little more difficult but still you could find a handful of troops that might work. Problem would be mixing them with other ranges whose figure size -- at least the ones I know of, mainly Foundry -- will be somewhat noticeably smaller.

Some of the Perry BAL are wearing shakos, and those troops look almost exactly like Brits from the First Afghan War and the First Opium War in China. I've been considering using them for a big project refighting the disastrous retreat from Kabul in January 1842. Problem is they look so clean! Plus they will tower over their HEIC Indian comrades-in-arms, who I think will have to come from the old Foundry Sikh War range. I may compromise and just use some of the beautiful Perry BAL officers to represent key historical leader figures.

***On the other front, I too use my Perry Sudan range troops for NWF. Of course, being a NWF junkie, I only bought the infantry wearing "Indian service dress" and the 10th Hussars, who are dressed the same as they were in India!

You might want to find a copy of Michael Barthorp's Osprey volume "The British Army on Campaign 1816-1902 (1): 1816-1853".

The First Carlist War figures will make stand-ins for the First Afghan War and the First China War: you will find examples of troops wearing both forage caps and bell-topped shakos in both campaigns. These figures could also take you through the First and Second Sokh Wars--although there were equipment changes, the uniform stayed the same--but not the Indian Mutiny.

Allen

The new BAL lancers could be used as Sikh war lancers and the artillery crew and rocket detachment as well. The BAL infantry running in shell jackets and peaked caps could be used as well.

Checking the First Afghan War artwork that hangs in my office (from the British siege and assault on Ghazni), I see endless opportunities to employ Perry Isabelino British Auxiliary Legion figures. Here's a link:

link

I heartily second aecurtis's recommendation: if at all possible, get yourself a copy of Barthorp's "The British Army of Campaign 1816-1902". All four volumes are great but "(1) 1816-1853" is perfect for your present needs.

I would use them for early opium war range! I have some of the old foundry Brits from their old indo china range, to be honest I was thinking about getting some of them for my early generic victorian collection and I would use them for 1st A'stan War, I would also use packs ISA 51,52 & 54! I use this army to cover NW Frontier and India 1840-52, also some of it deploys for the 7th & 8th Cape Wars!

>>>The First Carlist War figures will make stand-ins for the First Afghan War and the First China War: you will find examples of troops wearing both forage caps and bell-topped shakos in both campaigns.<<<

I'm trying to get past the various sources saying they usually left the backpack with the regimental baggage when in India, otherwise the Carlist BAL are great for 1840s. Also I can't confirm the item (mess kit?) on top of the BAL packs as being appropriate for the later period.

I wonder though, the CW Spanish style(?) forage cap on the BAL other ranks may be a bit too broad on top (for 1842)? Some of the command figures from the BAL have the more familiar billed cap (e.g. Sikh Wars) which is much like the U.S. in the 1840s.

Would really like to do the HEIC for ca. 1830s–1850s with Perrys' BAL, will be interested in further comments by like-minded TMPers.

I'm with you, Cheriton. I love the look of the Perry BAL figures from their Carlist Wars line. I'm strongly tempted to use them for an entire army for the First Afghan War. My hesitation isn't about the details of their kit or headgear, since that stuff is pretty close and/or can be customized without tons of work. My concern is that I don't know of any similarly sized Anglo-Indian troops to play the part of the HEIC native regiments, who always outnumbered their British comrades-in-arms. Maybe you could just use some of the BAL troops as Indians and paint their skin darker but the headgear and footgear wouldn't really do for an entire army's worth… would they? And what about uniformed Indian cavalry? The best would be if the Perrys would just sculpt a handful of Indian troops to go along with the British Auxiliary Legion figures -- but I doubt there's much chance of that. Otherwise… you have to match them with Foundry Sikh Wars Indian troops, if you can find them. Does anyone else make larger 25mm or true 28mm size HEIC Indian troops from the 1830s and 1840s…?

I think you will find Foundry will supply alot of there older stuff if you contact them, when I was last in there they had pretty much all the Sikh War's stuff and those British from the Early China range, they have the Belltop Shako and wear short jackets rather than the coatee, I have done some head swaps here and there and even did a conversion for a Captain Souter type figure in Afghan coat and appropriate flag around the waist!

I think the Foundry sepoys will look fine with Perrys. They are not that much smaller. Even my Minifig sepoys look fine with the Perrys.

Yes, Foundry does still do the Sikh War figs but you need to ask them for them. If you go to the factory they have them on the walls in blisters.

On the subject of the Sikh Wars, I would love to see the Twins revisit the range or some other talented designer start one (hint hint Mr. Hicks, Mr. Owen, etc!).

Perhaps I will just have to get someone to commission them myself…hmmmm, I could blackmail Peter Jackson and he in turn could get the Twins to do them for him, as they have done his WW1 Gallipoli range. I will have to think about this…

Oh, and I forgot my serious question.

In detail, what were the uniform and equipment changes from the Perry's BAL troops and those fighting in India (Afghanistan, Sikh Wars, etc), S. Africa (Kaffir Wars), and China during the 1840s???

I know about the water bottle and mess tin…and possibly a problem with the shako plate…anything else????

As Cheriton says above, troops in India usually went into battle without their packs on, though depending on the baggage train situation, they could wear them on the march. If you check the link I posted above, you'll see 4 pics of British Infantry in battle, sans packs, while in the very last pic, showing British Infantry on the march, they are wearing their packs.

For me, this is not a "make or break" detail. I could live with beautifully scuplted Perry BAL troops wearing packs in Afghanistan. Also, I think the figs in their new Royal Marines pack are not wearing packs at all.

would these from Castaway arts be suiatble for Afghan tribesmen?

link

They certainly would! Short time ago I placed my first ever order with Castaway Arts, for a unit to paint up as the 45th (Rattray's) Sikhs in the Second Afghan War, along with some British artillery crewmen. Doing business with them was a real pleasure and all of my figures arrived quickly and in perfect condition.

I'm developing an interest in the First Opium War 1838-1842 and will use Perry BAL figures – Marines, Regulars and Artillery. Castaway's Chinese figures look great but do they represent the uniform style and equipment of the period or are they for a later time? Most important question though – what type of rules to use? Any suggestions, please?

I am using Black Powder as one rule set another I was thinking of converting was Koenig Kreig (first step would be increasing weapon ranges). These two make sense as the firing line was stil prevalent. I am overjoyed that with some squinting I can use my Carlist war Brits for first opium war and the 1st afghan war (others as well). With that in mind I am eagerly getting into the conversions, I am doing with victrix figures.

Having an alternate opponent is exciting, having some really good scenarioes like the last retreat from Kabul.

Thanks for your suggestions. The Koenig Kreig webpage provides a link to the New York Public Library Digital Library Uniforms and Regimental Regalia: The Vinkhuijzen collection of military costume uniform illustration is a must to see. Check out Great Britain 1829-45 for First Opium War/Afghanistan uniforms.
Wargames Illustrated #76 (January 1994) has a Wargames Foundry advertisment for "China 1838-1900", that shows the British Infantry in shell jackets, and wearing back-packs. The Chinese figures still appear on the WF webpage. Perhaps someone out there may be able to link into the WI advertisment for us all to see. Sorry, I can't.

Wargames Foundry is now advertising with coloured pictures its Victorian British range of 28mm figures, suitable for China War, and First Afghanistan War. As mentioned above, this was the original range of "China 1838-1900."