"Historicon 2010 at Valley Forge: Better Or Worse?" Topic

Funny story about the Valley Forge site: Years ago they had a floor of themed hotel rooms. They double booked cons and some of us got bumped up into these themed rooms. A friend of mine was presenting a seminar and when he checked in he too was bumped up into a Jungle Themed room. We all had great fun at his expense making Tarzan and Jane jokes, etc.
One of the gang went to the nearby King Of Prussia mall and bought him a loincloth looking pair of briefs and gave them to him at his seminar infront of his audience. Luckily we did not have to endure seeing him try them on but took great pleasure watching him explain the joke to a room full
total strangers who paid money sit in on his presentation.

I live near the Hershey site and have attended and/or worked several cons there years ago. The vendor area is good but I'm not sure of gaming space. I know someone out there in TMP land can correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall a large Vendor Hall and rather a rat's nest of smaller "seminar" sized rooms on multiple floors that can be used for games. The cons I worked actually had to farm out some events into local school and church space. Size may come into play for Hershey. I know they've done some renovations (expansion?) but not sure of the details.

Not sure about VF, I was there once to visit the park and it wasn't fun traffic wise on a weekend.

Belated Happy Birthday, Donald!

Allen

Don't worry Murph…. I'm already working that angle. I have to say that you inspired me. I had a pleasant conversation with one of the BoD members about how to fix the BCC issue. I've given my name as a volunteer to assist at any place other than the BCC.

Ahhh…which you weren't planning on attending anyway…

So other than that, how have you been?

Quite well and busy actually…prepping for the 150th Gettysburgs which is in 4 years, and looking at being the largest CW reenactment ever…

I like the idea of holding Historicon in Hershey, PA in 2010. I attend the annual Porsche Club of America show there every April. It has a large convention hall, plenty of parking, lots of nearby hotels and of course the amusement park itself for the family. Although it would have drawbacks, remember that Historicon 2010 will not need as much space as 2009 because of the anticipated reduced atendance. It would be a good place for a one-time-only convention while HMGS East regroups and recovers from the current fiasco.

Better to put on some kind of a convention somewhere rather than none at all.

Quite well and busy actually…prepping for the 150th Gettysburgs which is in 4 years, and looking at being the largest CW reenactment ever…

Sounds interesting. I was at Gettysburg for Fall In. Everytime I looked at the battlefield, all I could think about was the poor guys who had to fight in the field in the middle of July. It must of been a horrible sight when the battle was done.

Is there still a Compleat Strategist in King of Prussia?

And people ragged on me when I said I would need 5 to 7 Grand to go to H-Con in Baltimore.

That was before we knew that everyone would have to hire their own lawyer in order to attend! :-O

"Is there still a Compleat Strategist in King of Prussia?"

link

I also think Hershey would be a super venue, but have to agree with Walt. I live near there, know a bunch of folks on staff and go to several conferences as part of my job. Bottom line is that they are super expensive and have no reason to negotiate since they (quote), "can fill up the place regardless if there's a Taylor Swift (or Kieth Urban, or Beyonce or whatever) concert across the street."

I'd love it, but I think that's just about dead.

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

Isn't the issue with VF about the local Municipality having some sort of merchant License that even the flea Market folks have to get?

So what about the Farm Show Complex in Harrisburg?

Colonel Bill-
Are you speaking of the Giant Center or the Hershey Motor Lodge Con Center? In my above posts on Hershey I was speaking in terms of the Motor Lodge facility.

Disco Joe-
"So what about the Farm Show Complex in Harrisburg?"
If you love the smell of the lower level of the Host Resort near the restrooms, you're gonna love the Farm Show in Hazy, Hot and Humid July. Just kidding, I wondered about that myself. One concern is that both the city of Harrisburg and the Commonwealth of PA are broke. Who knows what permit, parking, and various other "fees" they'll pile on the venue to get themselves out of the hole they've dug.The upside is we can probably get fresh "Pig In The Hall!" (My kids are still traumatized from the sight of that thing – 4 months later.)

Sounds interesting. I was at Gettysburg for Fall In. Everytime I looked at the battlefield, all I could think about was the poor guys who had to fight in the field in the middle of July. It must of been a horrible sight when the battle was done.

Yeps…50,000 dead in the July sun…and the wonderful folks of the town charging money for the wounded for a wagon ride back to the hospital. Kind of set the pattern for business in that town.
It'll be good…5-looking at 50,000 PLUS reenactors and a crowd of 1/2 a million probably…not sure where they are going to put them all…I just have to make sure that our unit is trained, supplied, and ready to go…

50000 casualties is not all dead.
Union
23,055 (3,155 killed 14,531 wounded 5,369 captured/missing)
Confederate
23,231 (4,708 killed 12,693 wounded 5,830 captured/missing)

Of course, at the anniversary, with 50000 plus reenactors and 500000 in a crowd, you might reach that again.

As someone who's actually attended a convention at the VFCC, here are my observations.

First off, it is not a "dump" (dump=THE most overused word on this forum to describe venues).

It's far from a dump; there are two very nice connecting hotels on site with several restaurants and bars. In the area is the VF park, a gigantic mall, numerous restaurants and hotels.

The Convention Center itself is huge, there are actually two floors of convention space.

If the con is to move there, one floor could be used for the dealers, the second floor could be used for gaming and the flea market. you will be able to game all night long to your hearts content. You can bring coolers in, have adult beverages, etc, etc and won't be "required" to buy your food from their food court. Access/load in for both dealers and gaming is a breeze and there is a raftload of on site parking, a gigantic parking lot right next to the convention center.

I think it would be an ideal location and for the millions of gamers the convention was sure to attract in Baltimore, the same can be said of this location as a major airport is only one half hour away.

Ok, you won't be able to sip brandy on your balcony outside of your hotel room and watch the sun set over Baltimore harbor, but you will be able to have a good time, have easy access to hotels and restaurants, easy access to the dealer area and gaming areas; you know, all the things you actually go to a wargaming convention for……………

The Viking Forge attended several MFCA shows at the VFCC in the 1990's. It's not perfect, but we like it.
If Historicon 2010 is held at the VFCC next July, we will attend as a dealer for our 26th consecutive Historicon and provide all the support we can.

As one of the fly-ins (from SoCal), being able to get to VFCC without having to rent a car is an important consideration (and has been a major reason keeping me away from Lancaster or Gettysburg). According to their site, they have a shuttle that runs to and from the airport (costs $53 USD round trip; a heck of lot less than renting a car). So, if Plan B does goes into effect, at least that point is covered for us ultra long distance types.

So there is.

Thank you. Allen.

I really enjoyed the Fall-In's I attended and I loved Gettysburg. I must admit I'd be more likely to attend something at VF rather than Baltimore. At least Gettysburg and Harrisburg have the Appalachian Brewing Company,gotta love the Jolly Scott Ale.

Yeps…50,000 dead in the July sun…and the wonderful folks of the town charging money for the wounded for a wagon ride back to the hospital. Kind of set the pattern for business in that town.

Yep! Eat where thousands have died.

Although the issue might be moot at this point (depending on whether a decision has been made but not yet announced on the future location of Historicon 2010), but after polling a number of veteran GMs and players, the potential negatives for Valley Forge include the following:

1) Traffic: as has been stated by those who have been to the area, this could be a problem, both with regard to local traffic and the access routes getting there.

2) Location: although VF is closer to those in the Northeast, it adds at least an hour to those based in the South and West. They didn't like Baltimore and those I have spoken with like VF even less.

3) Taxes: if you go to the VF Convention Center web page, you will find a local county tax form that you can printout. It appears to be dated, but it gives a schedule for taxes to be paid by vendors who use the facility. The amount of the tax appears to increase with the number of vendors per show and may run as high as $50 USD per vendor. If so, this could make flea market tables prohibitive at this location. ($20 current rate per table per session, plus $50 USD tax equals $70 USD per flea market table.) Dealers presumably would face the same tax issue. Whether this "math" is accurate or not, I don't know, but I have been told that the tax issue was one of the major reasons VF did not "make the cut" the last time a move was considered. Best case scenario: the local tax on vendors somehow is waived or repealed. If anyone knows the current status of the tax, I'm sure we would all like to hear about it.

4) Layout: I saw at least one photo on the VFCC web page of the convention hall. It appears to have a tile floor. Whether this area would be used for games, dealers or both, the noise factor could be a problem for some.

On the plus side, the location is near a battlefield site, of sorts. VF is not Gettysburg, but it could attract gamers who are interested in the period.

As I said, the decision may have already been made. If so, I hope that the above issues were taken into consideration.

We'll see.

Ok, let's go point for point.

1.) Traffic; the VFCC is located less than 5 minutes off of the PA turnpike. In all the times I've gone there for the MFCA toy soldier show, I've never hit any sort of traffic. I left the hotel each morning to eat breakfast and each night to eat dinner, never had a problem with traffic.

2.) Location; "it's closer for folks in the Northeast". True, hence the E for EAST in HMGSEAST. It's closer for those coming from the south too. It's a half hour further up the PA turnpike for those coming from the West.

3.) Taxes; not sure if you're aware of this or not, but as a vendor who attends shows in MA, NY, NJ, PA, OH, MI, IL, MD, VA and DE, I have a tax ID number for each of those states and file a tax return each quarter for each state I do shows in.

This is required by law; as a vendor who does this business full time, I am required to and do pay taxes. Death and taxes, you know the dril.

As far as the flea market folks; yes, they will have to pay a license fee per session to the state of PA, 50.00 per vendor. Again, you are selling goods and are making a profit last time I checked, therefore, Uncle Sam wants his pound of flesh. And a good number of the vendors in there are companies anyway, so there you go.

Sorry but I don't see how that fee gets waived; noway, nohow. I could be wrong, but that's the way things work in that part of the state.

4.) Layout; yes, the floors on both levels are tile, not sure what that has to do with anything. Does carpet absorb noise; if it does, then I guess it's true that you learn something new everyday.

Iv'e done shows in there and the noise level is and has not been an issue at all.

"Is there still a Compleat Strategist in King of Prussia?"

From VFCC/KoP Mall, it's less than a 10 minute drive down to the Strategist.

My shop is another 20 minutes back down rt. 476 and rt.1 in the direction of the airport. Both stores heavy on games, and between us have quite a bit of stuff people might be interested in.

I'm quite torn with the move to VF. It's very close, but also gives me no excuse at all to get a hotel room and game for 4 days. And too many people will be able to find me and drag me home.

Is the con actually moving there? Have I missed an announcement or something? I thought this was just speculation.

For more information on an announcement, see

TMP link

Murphy, This is totally off-topic, but I can't imagine where you are getting your numbers for the 150th Gettysburg reenactment. The 135th Anniversary Gettysburg had about 20,000 reenactors (plus maybe another 5,000 civilian reenactors) and that was the largest reenactment ever in this country. Numbers have fallen off precipitously since then and we haven't cracked the 10,000 mark anywhere. Every reenactment group has been bleeding numbers and in this economy new recruits are real hard to come by. I'm sure for the 150th we'll see a lot of inactive reenactors pull their gear out of mothballs and it wouldn't surprise me to see 12-15,000 show up (although where they are going to put them, I don't know, the current site that's been used for the last ten years can't begin to accomodate that number). The only thing that might change this would be some new media-related release. Ken Burn's "The Civil War" and the movies "Glory" and "Gettysburg" brought a lot of new people into the hobby. But I haven't heard of anything like that in the works and the 150th activities are only a year away.

4.) Layout (snip) Does carpet absorb noise; if it does, then I guess it's true that you learn something new everyday.

Yes, carpet and upholstery absorb noise. That's why carpets and cushioned seats are found in theaters and opera house. They improve the acoustics by absorbing sound reverberations and helping to cut down on echoes.

OK I'm convinced. Baltimore it is.

Rocu

Concerning Valley Forge, which seems to be the odds on favorite of the HISTORICON Convention Staff for reasons that don't make much sense to me.

We first looked at the VFCC as a potential site in 1988 or thereabouts. At the time they had enormous convention space, but very few (I think the figure was 200) sleeping rooms. Obviously they wouldn't give you diddly for filling sleeping rooms. And from the ratio and the fact that they do seem to have virtually unlimited (2,500) free parking spaces they seem to be designed to accommodate lots of local commuters. The MFCA is centered in Philadelphia last I heard, so that works for them.

Oh yes, and they wanted $30,000 for meeting space, while the Penn Harris gladly gave us the whole place in return for filling their hotel.

In those days the BOD realized that positive cash flow from conventions was sine que non. The current BORG seems abivalent on the subject.

When an earlier BOD (circa 2002) became infatuated with "Taking HISTORICON to the next level" Valley Forge was favored. It was turned down by the membership for several reasons:

1-It cost 900% more than the HOST. Mainly because most space at the HOST except for the former Tennis Barn and the upstairs Amphitheater were free for room nights.

2-Room nights on site were somewhat less than what could be found within half a mile of the HOST.

3-While the Lancaster area revenuers treated us with benign neglect, those at the Valley Forge site would inflict serious damage on vendors and kill the flea market.

4-The vast majority of those who had travelled through the area seemed to think the traffic was worse than the Lancaster Pike. And since anyone not staying on site would have to surf that traffic to get to bed and back, that was a definite draw back.

Both BCC and Valley Forge seem to be offering more meeting rooms (facility infrastructure in HMGS EAST budgets) than we could possibly use for a paltry $45,000 or so. We could have had the square footage of the HOST plus 10% at BCC for $26,500, but delusions of grandeur overcame the planners and we got not 94,000 but 144,000 for another $20,000.

Since HISTORICON 09 made only $4,000 profit with meeting space costing a mere $11,900 this looks very risky to me.

A real stopping point is the diligence of the local revenuers. One full time dealer(?) had this to say:

"As far as the flea market folks; yes, they will have to pay a license fee per session to the state of PA, 50.00 per vendor. Again, you are selling goods and are making a profit last time I checked, therefore, Uncle Sam wants his pound of flesh. And a good number of the vendors in there are companies anyway, so there you go"

I have to admit, I've been a vendor in Florida (where my business license is registered), Georgia, Pennyslvania, Ohio and most recently in North Carolina. On occassion I've sold in Lousiana and Tennessee. Usually game shows get away with benign neglect. James Curtis once pointed out to me that as law abiding citizens we should eagerly contribute more than we make at a convention to the local revenuers. As for Uncle Same getting his pound of flesh, that would be income tax, and sometimes my positive cash flow resembles that of General Motors in a very small way (I'm not too big to fail so I don't get a bail out-but even in good years Uncle's share is triffling.) States, however, if they exercise their prerogatives, take it on gross plus, apparently $50 USD for a flea market.

Regardless of the ideal rights and wrongs of things, I don't think there will be a flea maket at $50 USD a session. Nor do I think many vendors, accustomed as we are to benign neglect in Lancaster (not to mention at the Greater Columbus Convention Center) will bother to darken the doorways of the Valley Forge Convention Center.

I have been trying to find out what really happens to dealers at the MFCA show, but my ties to the community of those who collect but don't play with toy soldiers have frayed a good deal in the last 40 years. Curiously, the MFCA old web site claims that their annual show runs to about 1,900.

For Vally Forge Fanciers, the bright side is that the Baltimore Revenuers are reported to be as vicious and greedy as those at Valley Forge.

I expect Old Glory (Calumette PA) will attend. But I wouldn't expect many of the rest of us would bother to go to all that trouble just to make the local revenuers in Valley Forge better off. And the old maxim applies "Gamers attract dealers and dealers attract gamers."

Baltimore has one advantage, however. HMGS EAST is incorporated in the State of Maryland. Therefore many of the taxes associated with doing business could be avoided in Maryland while they would probably be paid in Pennsylvania. For some reason states don't always seem to give full faith and credit to the not-for-profit educational status of foreign corporations.

Anyway, I would expect HISTORICON to lose a big chunk of its dealers and all of its flea markets by moving into an activist revenuer venue. And with the annoyance of many of the gamers, as well as the prospect of a reduced vendor area, attendance will probably be down sharply.

With vendors and attenders reduced, and expenses exponentially increased, logically we can expect financial catastrophe.

I would expect, in either venue, for the convention staff to try to use the virtually unlimited extra space to generate attendance (and possibly vendors) outside of our usual base. For example, at one stage Games Workshop was to be given 100 free tables to foster fantasy and sci-fi gaming at BCC. I understand that they have curtailed their own lavish game day program as a bad go. We would also attempt to court the FOW Nationals, which required more space this year than the HOST could provide.

And at Valley Forge I would expect a serious effort to woo the toy soldier crowd who are accustomed to being taken for a ride by the venue, and whose dealers are similarly accustomed to abuse.

I wouldn't expect these efforts, even if fairly successful, to entirely offset the loss of the HM gaming crowd and its associated industrial base. But the effort would have to be made.

But while the convention would still be financially catastrophic, the degree of the catastrophe might be mitigated somewhat.

Pat Condray (WKPP)

Pat,

I have to say I'm surprised by your post as far as the taxes go. I had no idea so many of my fellow vendors were cheating the tax man :) I have my business license in Pennsylvania and I faithfully pay my 6% tax on all sales made at the HMGS conventions and income taxes on my profits every April. Hasn't driven me out of business so far.

Scott Washburn
PaperTerrain

Scott

I'm happy for you. I also pay sales tax of 6% on sales in Florida. But I've worked with dealers at ORIGINS, and of course I attend HISTORICON (thus far) and COLDWARS. Most recently SOUTHERN FRONT in North Carolina. Next month I will be attending SIEGE OF AUGUSTA in Georgia. Years ago when gasoline was cheaper I've done BAYOU WARS and NASHCON in Lousiana and Tennessee respectively.

I don't think I've seen a revenuer or applied for a business license in any state based on attending a convention as a vendor.

HMGS SOUTH in Florida is not a 501.c.3 corporation though it "aspires" to that honor in all versions of its bylaws. So while its pro-bono lawyer says they "may" have a tax liability for gate and vendor revenue they pay none.

Over the years they have attracted dealers from Alabama, Texas, Virginia, Georgia, and many other states. To the best of my knowledge and belief there have been no business licenses applied for or purchased, and no sales taxes paid. I don't charge the 6% I pay in Florida, I just take 6% of what I make in Florida and donate it to Governor Crist.

Regardless of the propriety of it, I doubt that many people selling toy soldiers at conventions in several states have a business license in each state.

That being the case, locations in which the revenuers insist on selling licenses and collecting taxes from all vendors will almost certainly attract fewer vendors (cheer up, less competitors for you and Russ) than those which operate on benign neglect.

And the guys who sell personal property (thus no income tax liability) in the flea market for $10 USD or $15 USD a session will almost certainly stay home if they have to pay an extra $50 USD for the privilege.

So unless I am very much mistaken, BCC or VF will have far fewer vendors and probably no flea market.

Another educated guess. If it is clear that there will be no flea market and fewer vendors, fewer gamers will show up.

Now this year our ace convention staff, burdened with the costs of free beer and an humongously expensive 25th Birthday Cake, but blessed with a mere $11,900 cost for meeting space took in $43,240 from attenders, and $41,190 from dealers. There was a total income of $116,387 of which they cleared $4,378 (slightly less than 4%)

Next year with fewer dealers and fewer gamers they will be paying about $45,000 for meeting space.

It looks like financial disaster to me. What does it look like to you?

Pat

flea market tables have been $20 USD per session for a while, not $10-15.

And the time is for 3 hours in the past you got 4 hours per session.

>moving into an activist revenuer venue.

Do any non-activist areas exist, apart from Lancaster?

If costs have been essentially 50:50 players:dealers, then it just may be a fact of life that it will have to change to 75:25.

Boo hoo; attendees have to pay another 10 or 20 bucks for the weekend ???

IF moving away from the Host is really what the membership wants.

Here's an idea:

Double the cost of admission.

All pre-registrants will receive vendor money. The amount will depend on how much vendor money was actually received, calculated so that the convention nets a certain minimum amount.

Non pre-registered admissions would simply add to the profit.

Paint by Numbers

Areas with less activist Revenuers include but are not limited to:

Columbus Ohio, Gettysburg PA, Lancaster PA, Harrisburg PA, the Virginia suburbs of DC, the Maryland suburbs of DC, Raleigh NC, Augusta GA, Jacksonville Florida, Orlando Florida, Tampa Florida, can't speak for Cocoa Beach Florida, but probably there also. Not to mention Nashville Tennessee and New Orleans Louisiana.

Basically, most conventions-all that I've attended, lacked aggressive revenuers. But we've been warned that the Valley Forge revenuers are more diligent. And they are saying the same about BCC.

As to making the gamers pay 75% if the number of vendors drops, lots of luck. You can charge a billion bucks for admission but you can't make anybody come.

Back in 2005 the BOD, in pursuit of the $250K slush fund the BORG is squandering wholesale, raised all the prices. They got the money. But attendance dropped.

At that time only sticker shock was involved. If anyone tries to overcharge the gamers because they've sharply reduced the vendors and eliminated the flea market, don't bet on it.

As for overcharging the gamers and giving them money usable with the handful of dealers, it might help. But I suspect not enough.

Pat

>Areas with less activist Revenuers

Located in the HMGS East area of operations:

>Gettysburg PA, Lancaster PA, Harrisburg PA, the Virginia suburbs of DC, the Maryland suburbs of DC,
>

Which of the above have a suitable venue, larger than the Host? From what I have been reading on TMP -- none.

Seems that a bigger venue will be less dealer friendly; which you say will reduce attendance making that venue too big… so back to the Host…

It would be interesting to see a graph year by year of the % cost split between dealers & attendees, with an attendance line as well. And the % square footage used by the dealers area vs games.

Hey, kb, it looks like BNN is falling down on its coverage of Baltimore Inner Harbor hotels; you let the LA Times beat you to it!

link

I know, I know: isolated incident, and the Amish farmers pack a lot more firepower than Uzis…

Allen

Allen, I take it you've never been raked by an Amish Drive-By?

Edit:
YouTube link

I've stayed at the hotel named in the article several times. It's a very nice place. I've put other guests up there and none of us has ever had a problem. Obviously, the staff and the hotel had nothing to do with the incident in question. If Historicon 2010 somehow stays in Baltimore, I'll stay at that hotel again. It's two blocks from the BCC and has great food and reasonable rates. I already have a reservation there.

FYI, there was a similar incident at one of the Waffle Houses in Lancaster a few conventions ago. That never stopped me from going out to eat at the Waffle House at 2am.

Through in the traffic congestion (just awful every time I've there)and I agree with Pat.

Throw in. Duh.

I know you guys were kidding about the Amish drive by raking, but just when you think you're safe……
True story and just out on the AP wire this afternoon.
"AP – Police in central Pennsylvania arrested an Amish man on drunk driving charges over the weekend after he was found asleep in his moving buggy."
Just as a guess, I'm believing the horse was the designated driver and knew the way back to the barn all along.

But a moving buggy is safer than a person who is drunk driving a car.
And you are correct in that the horse was the desginated driver.

>Here's an idea:

Double the cost of admission.

All pre-registrants will receive vendor money. The amount will depend on how much vendor money was actually received, calculated so that the convention nets a certain minimum amount.

Non pre-registered admissions would simply add to the profit.
>

To clarify: "vendor money" is monopoly money spendable only on the dealers. So the con is guaranteed to break even because it preregisters more than enough $$$, and refunds the excess in a way that protects the dealer's profit margins.

If you load the convention up with "vendor money" and "dealer dollars" and other nonsense, I will not attend.

'Vendor money' has got to be one of the more stupid ideas yet. And on this thread, that's saying something….