"Historicon 2010 at Valley Forge: Better Or Worse?" Topic

On the "HMGS Post Fall In! Updates" discussion, the HMGS East BOD announced that Historicon 2010 in Baltimore was under review and that a "Plan B" for the convention would be developed.

If that "Plan B" is a move to Valley Forge (as others have discussed elsewhere here), would that be better or worse than Baltimore? In other words, are you more or less likely to attend if Historicon 2010 is in Valley Forge? I am especially interested in the views of past Historicon GMs (like myself) and dealers.

The BOD has announced a self-imposed deadline of Nov. 23 on the issue. Regardless of whether they stick with that deadline (which is this upcoming Monday), I'm sure there are those who want to express their views on the subject of another potential move of the convention. Given that the HMGS Forum is (I believe) limited to submissions only by current members, this may be the place to get a wider sample of viewpoints, especially from those who attend the convention but are not current members.

I'm not a member of the HMGS-E, nor do I live in the region served by the HMGS-E, but I find it remarkable that there are only three possible venues for Historicon.

What are the criteria for a convention site? Are there criteria for the convention site? If the Lancaster Host is booked on the weekend that was sought, what about the weekends before and after? What is negotiable and what isn't negotiable? How much space is needed? Is lodging on-site required for the event or can it just be within a quick drive from the site? Must alcohol be allowed to be served within the venue? Does it have to be a conference hall, a convention hall, or large civic center or can it be some cash-strapped mega-church or college or declining strip mall? Is Atlantic City off-limits? Is New Jersey off-limits? What is needed and when is it needed?

Where the heck is Valley Forge?

West of Philidelphia.

With all the bad press Valley Forge got during the previous selection process, I am probably less likely to go, and even if I do go it would be more likely it would be a day trip. It is only about an hour further to get to, but there have been horror stories about the lack of hotels nearby, lack of food nearby, and traffic (though it can't be worse than downtown DC).

Valley Forge is next to King of Prussia, PA; home of the USA's second largest mall and the King of Prussia Convention Center, and 2 minutes from the PA turnpike. There are a lot of restaurants and hotels, and it is easy to get to.

If you enjoy the traffic in Lancaster, you will love VF. US 322 is terrible.

"Easy to get to" as long as you don't mind sitting in mind-numbing traffic on Thursday and Friday.

As a dealer I'd be very happy if it was at Valley Forge. It would be over an hour closer to me. While the traffic is bad at rush hour, you are not actually in a major city. You are also literally across the street from Valley Forge National Park, so if you are into Rev War, that's another plus. I haven't been inside the facility itself in years, so I'm not sure what it is like now. It was pretty big, as I recall.

For 2010 it doesn't matter to me, as I'd already made other gaming plans after the move to Baltimore was announced. Best of luck to everyone, wherever it moves.

Beyond 2010, I'd attend a show at Valley Forge. If it's the place I'm thinking of, I'd been there once for a gun show. I'd still prefer Lancaster over VF and with any change in venue I won't go as a GM the first time I attend. If that becomes the venue going forward I may just day trip in 2011 instead of the 4-5 days I'd spend in Lancaster. I also hope they resolve the flea market permit issues as that's why I was against the VF location a few years ago.

For me it's worse. I think that's why BCC was picked over this location the first time.

I know nothing about the venue. At least I've had experience with Lancaster and the BCC for conventions. Driving-wise, Valley Forge is much closer and will cut my commute time in half. It seems like it's a better location for those coming from the north, south and east, but longer for those coming from the west, unless you fly into Philly.

Steve
Cavalcade Wargames
cavalcadewargames.com
nycjadie.wordpress.com

I've been there. I never want to return. I'd go to the Host, heck even Dulles before going into the hell that is Valley Forge and that convention center area.

Having been to all three venues I would prefer Valley Forge over Baltimore but prefer the Host to Valley Forge.

If I were to give rankings to my preferences, so that a relative preference could be established I'd say the host was an 8, VF a 6 and Bal'mer a 2. I was just down there this past weekend, actually, to go to the Greek Heroes show at the Walters.

I'd be just as likely to go no matter where it moves to. I have too good of a time to let all the rampant speculation and bad mouthing get in the way.

I agree with Nazrat. You can make yourself miserable no matter where it is held or you can have fun instead.

I would sort of agree with Pictors Studio. I would give the Host an 8, Valley Forge a -10 and Baltimore a -15.

What is the facility like in Valley Forge? I haven't been there in years.

Last time I was there (Over 10 years ago) it was a dump.

Haven't been to Valley Forge since Eisenhower was president, and have never seen the convention center. But a look in Google Earth indicates that transportation is easy, there are plenty of good-looking hotels and restaurants nearby, and everything required seems to be self-contained within a compact area.

I may not be as skilled at reading maps as some, but I don't see US 322 entering the equation; it comes no closer than West Chester, about ten miles away. I do see US 422, but if that's a problem, it appears to me that it can be avoided completely by using alternate routes and side streets.

The only shortfall I see is that there are only 2500 parking spaces on-site, which may not be enough for the megalomaniacal convention goals that some seem to have.

Allen

How close is Valley Forge to a major airport? Although I did like Lancaster I really didn't like renting a car and drving another hour and a half after a five hour flight. I'll still do it but I would rather be closer to a major airport. For me Baltimore would have been great.

Thank God that Historicon isnt my primary con. To quote one of my favorites"Its a huge sandwich,and we're all gonna have to take a bite."

Looks like less than 25 miles from the Philadelphia airpirt via I-95, I-476, and I-76.

If there are 2500 spaces at Valley Forge, how many parking spaces are available at the Host?

That depends on whether you count gravel lot, the sidewalks, and the golf course as parking… 8)=

Valley Forge is easier to get to from Philadelphia airport than lancaster. I think some of the hotels have shuttles. Traffic is bad in the area but once you are there where are you travelling too? Plenty of resturants and closer to the highways.

"I think some of the hotels have shuttles."

As does the convention center.

From my personal perspective, VFCC is better than BCC, and I have no real issue going there. There are two hotels (488 rooms), three restaurants and a night club on site and a bazillion very close by near the KofP Mall.

I know this because every year on Black Friday my wife and daughter are at the KoP Mall one minute after midnight to shop. They reserve a room for two days at a hotel literally across the street.

I've been to both Valley Forge and the KofP Mall (not voluntarily) and I don't recall much of a traffic problem, but perhaps I just hit it right.

In any case, check it out at the following URL:

link

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

If there are 2500 spaces at Valley Forge, how many parking spaces are available at the Host?

There are about 750 marked guest spaces at the Host. That includes the gravel lot -- it is a lot.

There are about 60 spaces in the lot behind the expo center used by dealers. Some of the trucks are apt to use more than 1 space.

The grass field behind the gravel lot, by an area estimate might hold 240 cars.

There is no telling how much of the golf course the Host is willing to use for parking.

So, about 1050 plus an unknown number (possibly large) for the golf course.

This does not, of course, account for those who stay at nearby hotels and walk to the Host.

Duncan Adams
Historicon Events Manager
2006, 2007, 2008, 2010(?)

"The only shortfall I see is that there are only 2500 parking spaces on-site…"

I was being tongue-in-cheek, which may not have communicated. But it's useful to see a direct comparison.

Allen

Duncan:

I loved the "2010(?)." Got a well needed laugh out of that one.

The Mayans and Hollywood had the world coming to an end in 2012. HMGS East may beat them by two years.

As of right now I have reservations to Baltimore. If it moves somewhere else I probably wont be coming. That means 4 people probably wont be going. Baltimore was easy to get to for me, by train, plane or car. Philly suburbs are not.

I will most likely be flying in, so my concerns are how easily it can be reached after landing and the number/quality of local restaraunts and hotels within walking distance.

Secondary is if its a dump.

Having to rent a car after arriving adds expense to the trip I would prefer to avoid. I was looking forward to it being in Baltimore because I could fly into BWI and shuttle to downtown.

Ed G.

LOL…. Im glad I made other plans…. This is turning into a Charley Foxtrot
:-)

Has anything ever happened with the downtown Lancaster convention center that was scheduled to be built?

That's where the crime in Lancaster is Lon.

:>))

422 is the road that goes by the VFCC. it can be bad at rush hour and at christmas time. it is actually much better than 10 years ago.

i lived in KoP for 30 years, and when it was talked about as a convention spot the first time, i thought the lack of a cheap hotel and cheap food within walking distance was bad, possibly a deal breaker.

of course when me and my friend had a discusiion about alternative sites. we came to the conclussion that no site was going to work except perhaps dulles or fredricksburg.. and that was only because we didn't know enough about those sites to eliminate them.

larry

"Has anything ever happened with the downtown Lancaster convention center that was scheduled to be built?"

Yes. They have no parking. It is right in the heart of downtown Lancaster (very city-like), but parking was something they forgot to plan for, or couldn't, or didn't, or whatever.

I drove past the place this year on my way to Hcon (went a different way, got lost), and there is a nice pay for parking garage right next door.

So to summarize, everything you hated about the BCC is there in spades at this site.

Dulles was too expensive, as listed by Bob Coggins, sometime ago, and Fredericksburg had problems too (parking,space, cost?). Thus they weren't even ranked up there with the BCC or the VFCC. Also, if you are coming from the north (on I-95), traffic is horrendous on that corridor between DC and Fredericksburg. Just a nightmare.

The VFCC has two big pluses, on site free parking, and two adjoining hotels. But it ain't cheap, and getting out of the contracts with the BCC and accompanying hotels might be a nightmare in and of itself.

Enough said. :-(

Don't know, don't care…just waiting for a certain person to start his spiel again about "Why can't we have it at the Host?"…

I'll be at the bar when the fun and games begin….

Why can't we have it at the Host?

well it doesnt matter to me where it is held. I will be attending. I'll play some games, spend far too much money, and meet some people who hopefully will become friends. I might even get to try some games I really want to try but havent forked over the dough to buy yet. I will be adding to my already far too out of control collection of toy soldiers and books pertaining to them.
Im going to have a good time no matter where it is held,and I wish more people would just look at it from that perspective rather than get the hump about where it may or may not be held.
Just my 2 cents.

I have a friend who lives close to Valley Forge so I could stay with him. So my vote goes to Valley Forge

How close is Valley Forge to a major airport?

Givn traffic, about a half hour from Philadelphia International Airport.
They are at opposite neds of the Schuylkill express (Surekill Express *gtin* ).
The Phillies play in the same area as the airport, so there goes the worries about traffic during/after ball games.

VF is right off the PA Turnpike.

Bring it to Hershey PA! Come On!!!!!!

gert1746 on 20 Nov 2009 4:44 p.m. PST said:

"Bring it to Hershey PA! Come On!!!!!!"

Hershey: Hmmm…
Convention Center…check.
Airport (Harrisburg International) 30 minutes away…check.
Numerous small local hotels…check.
Multiple Dining venues…check.
HersheyPark…check.
Chocolate…check. check. check.
20 minute drive from my house, 5 minutes from my godsons' house…check.

Yep, Hershey it is! bring it on!

I assume from the lack of consideration of the Host that the slot has been filled by another event. If so, what is the possibility of another week during the summer? I find it hard to believe the Host is booked wall to wall all summer.

Don't know, don't care…just waiting for a certain person to start his spiel again about "Why can't we have it at the Host?"…

Don't worry Murph…. I'm already working that angle. I have to say that you inspired me. I had a pleasant conversation with one of the BoD members about how to fix the BCC issue. I've given my name as a volunteer to assist at any place other than the BCC.

So other than that, how have you been?

Why can't we have it at the Host?

According to the BoD, the weekend that they chose was already booked. They might consider another weekend.

I'm just a bit concerned that BoD gave themselves until the 23rd to review the BCC documentation and according to the last post from Heather, they're still interviewing lawyers.

All I know is I hope you HMGS-E guys figure this stuff out because a trip to historicon is my gift to myself after I retire from the Army in two years!! Darn it, get it together for the troops!!
CW

I've been a vendor in several cons at the VF facility. It is old and wearing but passable. (Similar in vintage to the Host.) The main exhibit area is underground which you access via a ramp/tunnel down to that level. It is a tight two lanes wide and covered from the weather but can get log jammed easily. I like having the hotels right there (attached) and parking is plentiful. All in all it beats the snot out of the Baltimore site for convenience of the attendees. My main concerns are cost and security. I often use my vehicle for storage or just to dump off loot in the middle of the day. Although I do love Baltimore as a day trip or weekend getaway, as far as a con it is a no go. Valley Forge would work in a pinch but I'm not a big fan.

Hershey: in 2002 they were too expensive and not eager for what they considered a pretty small convention by their standards. Times may have changed in this economy, but that's what the search committee said back then.