"Welsh Regiments" Topic

Aside from the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, who in any case seem to have recruited from all over the British Isles, were there any Welsh units in the British army from the time of Marlborough to that of Wellington?

I know there was the 43rd Monmouthshire Light Infantry during the Napoleonic wars but were there any others?

If you read Urban's book, you'll find out that like more British regiments of the time, they were made up of men from all over the place. In short, the 23rd was not all that Welsh, but in name only.

You'd have to go beyond the AWI for when the regiments achieved a county like distinction.

41st (Welsh) Regiment

It's 'Royal Welch Fusiliers' BTW. They got rather protective of the spelling

and what historygamer said, regiments may have recruited close to their home depots in peace time, but they would take men from anywhere to make up the required numbers

The "Welch" spelling only became official after Army Order 56 of 1920 – before that both spellings were used.

The 24th Foot (later South Wales Borderers) fought with Wellington in the Peninsula but i don't know how 'Welsh' they were at that time. Not particularly would be my guess.

Until the official introduction of county affiliations in 1782, every regiment and corps of the Army recruited "at large" throughout Great Britain and Ireland (in theory at least). Which of the two islands they focussed on might depend on how wealthy/desperate they were and whether they were on the English or Irish Establishments at any given time.

Incidentally, a regiment's presence on one or other was not indicative of any "national" connection – eg the 27th Foot (Inniskilling) was on the Irish Establishment, but the 6th Dragoons (Inniskilling) on the English; the 1st Foot (Royal Scots) had one battalion on each Establishment, but none based in Scotland, whilst the 18th Foot (Royal Irish) and 60th Foot (Royal American) were both on the English Establishment. And none of the last three were by any means exclusively from their "home" nation.

Prior to the AWI, the only genuinely "local" corps in the British Army were the clan regiments raised in Scotland, usually from a family's estates – eg 71st (Fraser's) Highlanders in the AWI. One or two regiments had begun to focus on specific areas – eg 5th Foot in Northumberland, the 33rd Foot in West Yorkshire – but these were also often the result of family connections (in the case of the 5th, the estates of the Percy family). Both of these regiments took these counties as their affiliation in 1782. The raising of extra regiments during the AWI – particularly those numbered 80th and up – showed Horse Guards that local identity had a value and led to the 1782 regulations.

However, in tracing a regiment's origins through this period you have to be careful. Even between 1782 and 1815, there were many changes in county affiliations – eg the 35th Foot (originally raised in Ireland) became the Dorsetshire Regiment in 1782 (nobody knows why), and then the Sussex Regiment in 1805, when the Duke of Richmond became its colonel and recruited many men from his Sussex estates. The original Sussex Regiment was the 25th Foot, which later acquired links with the English/Scottish borders and became the King's Own Scottish Borderers.

BTW, the 41st was an Invalid Regiment until 1787, having originally been formed from Out-Pensioners of the Royal Hospital, Chelsea. It was one of five infantry regiments not given a county affiliation in 1782, and only became The Welch (sic) Regiment in 1831, and was later amalgamated with the 69th Foot (which had been the South Lincolnshire Regiment from 1782 and throughout the period you are interested in) in the Cardwell/Childers reforms of 1881.

The 24th Foot was originally the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment (the first being the 6th Foot) and remained so until the reforms of 1881. However, it had moved its depot to Brecon in South Wales in the early 1870s, hence the large number of Welshmen in an ostensibly English regiment at Rorke's Drift in 1879. (At the end of the SYW, the 2nd Battalion of the 24th became the 69th; the fact that both ended up as Welsh regiments is coincidence.)

What SM said. :-)

In a follow up on the 23rd, during the AWI; weren't a lot of their officers Scots and Irish? I think so, but will defer to Urban's book.

There is also the fact that until the first world war 'Pals' Battalions, and outside of the clan recruiting of the Scots, the Army establishment liked Regiments to recruit quite broadly, simply so that whole villages/towns were not hit by one bad action.

HG,

Yes, they were – in fact, the Army in N America was a bit of a McMafia (somewhat ironically, given the references in the early war to the Rebels being a "Mac-ocracy"). The two COs – Bernard and Balfour – were Irish and Scottish, as were Mecan and MacKenzie. In fact, from memory, there were only two of the 12 senior officers in 1775 were English.

43rd too, Monmouthshire is a funny county, it being part of both England at Wales at various points of history. at this time It was classed as English I beleive.

Thanks for the answers guys. It was actually Keith Urban's book that started me wondering. He talks about the number of Irishmen in the 23rd and I realised that I have often read about Scots and Irish being well represented in British regiments but haven't heard of the Welsh being there in significant numbers.

I think that most regiemtents took recruits from anywhere. I seem to remember reading that one of the reasons some regiments became 'dekilted' was that it would make recruiting for them easier.

I think that when founded most regiments were able to accquire a healthy portion of recruits from its own county. But as the wars dragged own theyd take anyone. Volunteering from the milita didnt help. If an Scottish regiment like the 73rd would take a large number from the Surry Militia then it would have a lot of Surrey men in its ranks.

I read somewhere that the 5th Northumberland and the 33rd West Yorks made an effort to recruit mainly in their own county. Napier I beleive mention the 45th as being a collaction of Nottinghamshire weavers. But these seem to be the exceptions rathe than the rule.

I've got a list of all the 1815 campaign regiments and their make up by county – I'd say few were representative AT ALL of their name county. The 40th (Somerset) Foot are the only clear exception.

That doesn't surprise me after 25 years of constant war. Even by 1815, the actual affiliations were still in a state of flux, and were further complicated by the need to fill at least two battalions (which did not exist in 1782) and the constant transfer of drafts from one unit to another, in order to fill up units going off to war.

During the Nap Wars, militiamen were finally allowed to volunteer for service in the regular army from 1805. But such volunteers frequently chose 'good / successful' regiments (i.e. Welly's Rifles & Lights in the Peninsula), rather than those affiliated to their militia regiment's own county.

So much for county designations.

>However, it had moved its depot to Brecon in South Wales in >the early 1870s, hence the large number of Welshmen in an >ostensibly English regiment at Rorke's Drift in 1879.

And even that got way overplayed in the films thanks to Stanley Baker's personal agenda, to include prematurely misnaming the regiment "South Wales Borderers," which came later.

Going back to the Napoleonic Wars, at one point up to 60 percent of the British army in Spain was reputedly Irish, regardless of regimental affiliation.

So apart from some of the Highland units, it's hard to nail down--and even that could change. The 73d Foot was still labeled "Highland" in 1815 even though they no longer wore kilts (or anything else Scottish) and were no longer predominantly Scots in make up, either.

Yes, you can't read too much into a regimental title. The Royal American Regiment never lived up to its title or oringal ideas either.

<<And even that got way overplayed in the films thanks to Stanley Baker's personal agenda, to include prematurely misnaming the regiment "South Wales Borderers," which came later.>>

Under 20 out of the 140, I believe – there were actually more Irishmen in the unit (only one more, but hey……). Amazing to think one of the most famous actions in the history of the British Army was won by a bunch of Brummies. Probably drove off the Zulus with their accents.

<<The 73d Foot was still labeled "Highland" in 1815 even though they no longer wore kilts (or anything else Scottish) and were no longer predominantly Scots in make up, either.>>

Interesting that they were still considered sufficiently so in 1881 to rejoin the 42nd as the BW's 2nd Bn.

Interesting that they were still considered sufficiently so in 1881 to rejoin the 42nd as the BW's 2nd Bn.

That is interesting. I suppose they never lost their "official" title, though at Waterloo they were wearing a straight-up line infantry uniform, grey trousers, belgic shako, etc. No dicing or other highland ornaments like say the 71st Foot (HLI) did.

2d Bn was disbanded in 1817, the remainder went to 1/73 in Ceylon. Makes me think the recruiting patterns had probably changed again by the 1880s.

VT,

The Clearances and the Potato Blight hit Scotland particularly hard in the 1830s and 1840s. This may have boosted recruiting, and restored the "Scottish" nature of the 73rd which was one of several Highland regiments that were de-kilted (in 1809??) – these included the 71st and 74th, later the Highland Light Infantry.

"<<And even that got way overplayed in the films thanks to Stanley Baker's personal agenda, to include prematurely misnaming the regiment "South Wales Borderers," which came later.>>

Under 20 out of the 140, I believe – there were actually more Irishmen in the unit (only one more, but hey……). Amazing to think one of the most famous actions in the history of the British Army was won by a bunch of Brummies. Probably drove off the Zulus with their accents."

The 24th recruited most heavily in Whitechapel, so they were unlikely to have been Brummies, even if Brummies are from Warwickshire in general, rather than Birmingham in particular! The Coldstream Guards, if I remember correctly, did, and still does, recruit from the North East, Northumberland in particular.

Whitechapel as in the East End (Guv)?

Well, in that case it was probably more of a mugging…..after which they probably sold the Zulus their own kit back.

Yers. Or "Vite-Chapelle", as my Irish late father-in-law referred to it as.