"Iowa/States class Battleship books?" Topic

I try to have a new 'reading project' every year….and have been checking out WWII 'historical' stuff for several years.

Since we have so many folks here that know/play/have researched things far better than I could, I was wondering if anyone could recommend a book on the 'Iowa' or STATES class Battleships…(I know next to nothing on them other that the New Jersey, Missouri (Mighty 'Mo')…)

I'd really like to read about the basic 'class' and it's varients and things like how many are 'still around'…even if in 'permanent drydock' or mothballed…

And are any of them still…'serviceable' in the sense that I think the NJ and MO were both pulled back into service at least twice in the last years of 20th Century/early 21st?

And….though some say the Battleship is now 'obsolete' due to more advanced/smaller/high-tech cruisers/destroyers….is it really 'true' that their 'time' really is 'forever over?'…(manning issues aside???)

I mean…look at the 'supercarriers'…they are still going strong…or will those too, become 'obsolete' in time????

Thanks in advance for any recommendations…(and yes, I like books with lots and lots of pictures, diagrams, cut-aways and 'personal stories' by those who SERVED on them!

I will gladly keep a 'list' and make requests from my library if need be….this is for a 'year-long' reading project ya know! 8-)

Slishfully,
Sgt DWW-btod

Are you going to build a companion to Murphy's Carrier? ;)

You can try this if you can find it. There are quite a few books out there about the Class both in WWII up to just recently. And there are quite a few sites on them. Robert

"Iowa class battleships: their design, weapons & equipment"
By Robert F. Sumrall, Tom Walkowiak

The Iowa would be the only one even remotely "serviceable" (and that's VERY remotely). The other three are all now floating museums and probably beyond restoration.

Was on the Wisconsin not long ago and its could go to sea if over hauled (actually that is a NAVY requirement to their being 'lent' to the museums). Missouri has a damaged keel from a grounding decades ago I believe and I don't recall which one had the turret explosion in 1989, but don't believe that it was ever repaired.

Would assume that if really, really needed, that at least two of them could be still used.

Dan

As far as re-commissioning goes, that's so painfully unlikely it's not even funny.

An Iowa needs a much larger crew (3500+) than 4 OHIO-class SSBNs combined (180x8 crews), and has significant technology and occupancy issues. (I used the Ohios because 4 Ohios have a similar displacement to one Iowa)

Nobody still in the Navy really remembers how to make the boilers work at best efficiency anymore. Sure, the nuc sailors could handle the turbines and electrical stuff, but the actual Boiler Techs are gone. Same thing with the 16" guns and their mechanical fire-control systems. I think even the 5"/38s are out of service with the rest of the Navy.

Most modern computers can't handle the forces caused by shooting off the big guns, that's why they still use the original mechanical computers.

All of the Iowas saw service in WW2 and Korea. The New Jersey was recommissioned and saw service in Vietnam in 1968-9. All 4 were recommissioned during the 1980s as part of Reagan's 600-ship Navy, but were decommissioned in the early 1990s.

The Iowa has been struck from the Naval Register, but by law must be maintained in a state of readiness to be returned to the Navy. She can be found in San Francisco, California.

New Jersey is a museum ship, but does not have to be maintained in a state of readiness. She can be found in Camden, New Jersey.

Missouri is a museum ship, and is tied up next to the USS ARIZONA. I'm not sure about her state of readiness, but her exterior is in excellent shape. I think the guys who irritate the CO of Pearl Harbor get sent over to chip paint, etc.

Wisconsin, like the Iowa, has been struck from the Naval register and must be kept in a state of readiness. She can be found in Norfolk, Virginia.

I think you'll find some excellent websites by the organizations that maintain each of the ships. Well, except the Iowa.

link

ussmissouri.com

battleshipnewjersey.org

hrnm.navy.mil

"I was wondering if anyone could recommend a book on the 'Iowa' or STATES class Battleships"

Iowa class. All US battleships were named for states, from USS Maine (BB-1) through the Iowas.

The biggest problems with using battleships these days is the enormous amount of oil they use, the number of crew required, and their vulnerability. While an Iowa could probably shrug off most missile hits (missiles aren't made to penetrate armor), they are particularly vulnerable to torpedoes. WW2-era torpedoes tried to blow a hole through the side of the ship, hence the addition of anti-torpedo bulges on battleships. Modern torpedoes, however, go underneath the ship and blow up, breaking the keel.
(here's a great series of photos showing how this happens here: link

All US battleships were named for states, from USS Maine (BB-1) through the Iowas

Nitpicker alert!

Actually, Maine and Texas never received BB designations. Texas never had any designation, and Maine only carried ACR-1. BB-1 was Indiana, and BB-5, Kearsarge is the sole exception to the "states only" rule.

More nitpicking:

Missouri has a damaged keel from a grounding decades ago I believe and I don't recall which one had the turret explosion in 1989, but don't believe that it was ever repaired.

The myth about the Missouri damaging her keel has proven even more long-lived than the spam about the dying kid collecting post cards. It is a myth. Her keel is fine and always was. The ship with the turret explosion is the Iowa, and that gun was never repaired.

An Iowa needs a much larger crew (3500+)

An Iowa's original complement was a bit under 2000. Their maximum complement in WWII (after adding over a hundred light AA guns) was just under 3000. After removing all the 40mm and 20mm, half the 5", and all the floatplane equipment, the crew of a modernized Iowa is about 1600.

Back on topic: I recommend "The Iowa Class Battleships" by Malcolm Muir. It's not as long on tech details and very strong on operational histories, damage incurred, and memories of their captains.

"What is the current status of the USS Iowa".
TMP link

Robert

U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History (Hardcover) by Norman Friedman (Author).

link

Everything you'll ever what to know about US Battleships.

First off, I am a Navy Engineering Duty Officer, have spent a fair bit of time touring and officially inspecting some of the Navy's Memorial ships (including the Immortal Showboat BB-55), and even picked the folks that will run the Navy's inspection program for this Fiscal Year. That deals with the truth in advertising part and no sock puppets.

That said, we love those big ladies, but it is hard to imagine circumstances in which modern technology can't do it faster, cheaper, sooner, and deadlier. At this point the Navy lends these out to honor the service of our Sailors in the past, our storied dead, and share our Navy's future vision with the next generations. We maintain the last BBs and the USS Constitution because it is law and in keeping with the sacred trust that these memorial represent – not because it makes tactical or strategic sense.

As far as all of these ships go – we focus on two main areas – cosmetics and marine safety. The cosmetic is simple to keep the visible portions of the ships in a manner keeping with the dignity of the sacrifice these memorials commemorate. We focus on the exterior and tour routes within the skin, but once you get to the dark creepy places we let nature take her course (the wonderful organizations which sponsor these could not possibly raise enough money to overhaul them or maintain them if that was the objective).

We also make certain that the vessels will not present Marine Safety issues year to year (no oil spills, collapsing decks, adrift hulks, listing ships, EPA citations, etc.). I was commissioned about the time we put these ladies to bed for the last time and am about ready to call my career a day. That means the Sailors who knew anything about how to breathe real life into these beauties (even immaculately maintained beauties) have long since passed the age of reasonable service (we recalled a bunch of WWII and Korea vets last time).

So could we resuscitate one – yes. Just like the USS Constitution (which still is on the lists), but hard to imagine any circumstances where guns that just shoot 20 miles could justify the cost. It is interesting that the those old BB names are being recycled as we speak and one the Navy's brightest Gems is the USS NORTH CAROLINA – which could rain fire and brimstone (the conventional kind) on targets a thousand miles inland from the 100 fathom line as the Marines land by Osprey 200 miles behind the FEBA.

Here's to the Battleships and the Men who sailed them. And here is to our Navy's future: YouTube link

Lost Pict

A lot of what I would have shared has already been mentioned. So I'll mention just a few more things:

1. There's a remarkable amount of information about WWI and WWII warships available for free on the internet via wikipedia, globalsecurity.org and other sources. Just try googling them by class name or ship name. You could always try googling 'battleship classes' or better yet '(country)battleship classes to get a list of classes to further research.

2. Chance of them ever seeing service again (outside a John Ringo novel – which is very cool) is pretty much zero.

3. Something like a battleship may someday be available again – if by 'battleship' you mean 'ship mounting gigantic guns'.

link

4. If you want to game with battleships (and other ships), look no further than Naval Thunder:

navalthunder.com

Battleships are indeed a "lost technology". The know-how and infrastructure to build the big guns etc is gone now and would take a lot of money to make something new. In any case they would be built very differently today with composite armour, missiles and possibly a nuclear reactor.

When I did a tour of the New Jersey last week, I noticed that certain access hatches had been closed up with silicone seals around the edges probably to keep out moisture and keep asbestos in. Same problem with the Intrepid, lower decks are off limit due to asbestos problems. I did mean to ask if the NJ could be made serviceable again, but didn't get the chance. My guess is that if you were pressed hard enough and threw enough money at it, it might be possible to send the old battlewagons back into service.

Its certainly possible. . . but the military payoff just isn't there. The strike capabilities of the 16" guns – which is what you're really paying for, is just woefully inefficient compared to the costs involved in refitting and operating a battleship.

From what I understand when we finally decomissioned them some equipment was starting to go unrepaired for lack of parts and no manufacturing facilities to make them.

Even the 16" guns were using a stash of 50 year old shells the navy found in a warehouse. Nobody has the capability of making them today.

You are exactly right that they are a lost technology. Its not that we're incapable of building them anymore. Its just that we no longer have the infrastructure to do so. If we wanted to start a battleship building program again – we've first have to start by building the tools and facilities before we even started on the ships themselves. In addition, there would be a lot of "relearning" of lessons to do.

Armor plate and guns in particular were very difficult to manufacture – and probably still would be today (although guns would be much easier to design with the computer design programs we have today.)

If we wanted something battleship like, it would be far more efficient to start from scratch, and build a modern ship that is far cheaper to operate due to automation, and much more capable of responding to modern age threats.

That said. . .

1. Battleships are still the coolest weapon system ever invented.

2. I think the navy really ought to put some armor on contemporary warships for increased survivability instead of relying almost entirely on active defense systems. I think our carriers might still have *some* armor. . . but nothing else does.

TheDreadnought

I agree with your last two points wholeheartedly.

I think that modern naval ship building is not changing fast enough to meet the most likely current threat / opposition – Somali pirates or improvised attacks by converted fishing boats or row boats or what ever in unfriendly harbours / waters. Is it really likely that the USN / RN will engage in an over-the-horizon naval battle or have to fight off air or missile attacks in the next 10 years?
If I was patrolling about in the Gulf of Aden or Persian Gulf, I'd far rather be in a WW2 cruiser than a modern day Daring-Class Destroyer or whatever. If a few lunatics in a fishing boat can get close enough to a western naval ship to lose off a few hundred .50 cal rounds into it, they will do enormous damage.
I accept a need for the ultra-modern ships of the USN or RN and while I agree it is nigh on impossible that we will never see Battleships again, I still feel western navies need to re-invent the 'gun boat' – a tough, well armoured and well armed (read: guns) vessel which can go into unfriendly waters and hold its own against asymmetrical attacks.

Bulldog,

I agree, if someone needs to be pounded, the ships with the strike mission need to stay out in the deep blue and deliver ordnance on target with Missiles or maybe those Rail Guns (in the Navy after next). The Littorals are no place for expensive capital ships to operate. This is a great place for gunboats, UAVs, UUAVS, etc. and we hope the LCS. Similar to your idea, one of the USN predessor concepts to the LCS was a "Streetfighter":

link

As concept it is great, but as a Sailor – you hate to be the one in the expendable ship. We tried this on the Army side about the same time and discovered in Iraq that losing Soldiers to mines in a our thin skins (i.e. cheap) was not something the American people tolerated very well (nor the Soldiers). We ended up with Soldiers in 100 pounds of gear operating out of expensive MRAPS – safe, but hard to shoot, move, and communicate let alone get the CI mission done.

LCS ended up being something very different and it will be interesting to see how it does in this mission environment.

Lost Pict

P.S. I think Helicopter Gunships are about the coolest weapon platform to come down the pike. Imagine trying to deal with one of those in your little fast boat. Can you spell HELLFIRE?

LostPict

An interesting post and a great link – thanks.

I agree with your concerns about viewing the gunboat crews as expendable, but at least their vessels can be designed to deal with going into harms way and armoured against small arms fire / RPGs etc which modern frigates / destroyers simply aren't.

Lostpict:

I will grant you gunsihps are VERY cool. But battleships take the cake. I will say this though, the holy trinity of 20th/21st century weapons systems are:

Battleships
Main Battle Tanks (battleships on land)
Helicopter Gunships (battleships in the air!)

:)

The A10 was pretty freakin cool too. . . for the same reason as battleships. Nobody. . . but nobody argues with you when staring down the business end of one of those 30mm GAU-8 guns!

I am also all in favor for building an anti-piracy fleet. A couple 5" turrets, a couple Phalanx CIWS, maybe a couple 50's for good measure when a Phalanx might be a little overkill. Some armor to stop RPG rounds.

That's all you need. No fancy Aegis systems. No ASW capability. Maybe one gunship on a helipad on the back for extended strike against shore bases.

Dirt cheap. . . minimal crew. . . VERY scary if you are a pirate.

. . . and I wouldn't really qualify these as "expendable" when used for their intended role. Sure. . . they've got no business being in a stand-up over the horizon or air to surface naval engagement. . . but that's not what they're for. In fact, a lot of combat is going on between ships very similar to this these days. Look what's happening between the Koreas.

Let me digress a bit. I give you Battleships were pretty cool until ~1925. Orville and Wilbur actually made them dated in 1901, Mr. Ely moved them to Obsolescent in 1910, and then General Mitchell put the nails in the coffin in the 20s. Of course it took 15 years to figure out that Mitchell was right and few years later we can – scratch one Bismarck, one IJN YAMATO, one Italian Fleet at Taranto, and then with much audacity the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor. By then those vaunted BBs had just become mobile artillery platforms (although quite impressive!)

Of course, even after Pearl, the free world (at least my part of it) breathed a huge sigh of relief as the first modern battleship, the Immortal Showboat, the USS NORTH CAROLINA steamed into Hawaii a 6 months later (from their website 'according to sailors at Pearl, North Carolina was "the most beautiful thing they had ever seen"'). Of course, those clever fellows in Germany were even then working on the next paradigm shift ala cruise missiles (V-1) that will dominate any near term naval war. These ungainly brutes and lowly UAVs have already put our birdfarms on the same path as those beautiful BB.

Of course, I think BB have a future. Assuming we get rail-guns and Speed of Light weapons to be the deployable and reliable things we intend, a very different world emerges. Imagine mid-21st century navies with very high speed, dreadnoughts maneuvering to control choke points where they engage their adversaries with direct fire hypersonic rail weapons while hunkered down close to the waves. Sweeping all airborne platforms from the skies with SOL AA defenses and protecting themselves from the submerged weapon threat with a school of autonomous free-swimming AUV that intercept torpedoes and submarines.

As to a near term gun-boat, you basic Navy MK V or PC with a mothership has all the capability and firepower you need for today's insurgents. Of course, I still vote for helo gunships since speed is life and HELLFIRE is pretty much certain death for thugs with boats and guns. Note to mentions SEALs.

I do roger up that M-1s are pretty cool (and not obsolete yet), but have seen too much dead armor (older MBT) that were gunship meat to rank them with BBs for pure impressiveness.

Of course at the end of the day, the most impressive weapon of all is a determined man with a gun or a bomb. Hard to stop and able to change the course of nations.

Lost Pict

Let me start off by saying that I am a member of the last recommissioning crew of the USS New Jersey. I served on her for 4 years, 81-85, including Beirut Lebanon 83-84.

We had a crew of 1500 and had to totally rewrite the operating book for the ships main propulsion systems, but they can still be operated by competent engineers.

The operating cost is the killer with these magnificent ships. Fuel oil being the main expense, the Big J could carry over 1 million gallons of fuel of various types. Logistics is the biggest barrier in trying to bring these ships back.

Can they be brought back = Yes
Should they be = No (but I am sentimental enough to hope they would be)
There are too many ways that a mission can be carried out at a much lower logistical cost.

My 4 years aboard her were the best of my life and I would not trade them for anything.

btw, all asbestos was removed in the early 80s.

Karma