"Which Gives Better Game: Force on Force or Stargrunt II" Topic

I realize that Ambush Alley hasn't yet released their sci-fi version of Force on Force, but we'll assume it plays like the current version.

Which do you think would give a better game: FoF or SG2? I know this is subjective, but our entire hobby is rather subjective, isn't it?

Which game would be more fun to play, faster, more intense, more realistic, however you want to define it.

If I laid out two excellent gaming tables, one for SG2 and one for sci-fi FoF (or Ambush Alley), which would you play?

SG2. But then I am biased …

I like Force on Force, but once you play a game or so of SGII you never even look at the Rulebook, just your Unit cards.

I go with SGII (In 15mm of course!!!!)

For realism, I think I'd have to argue for Force on Force, at least for MOUT/FISH/ whatever you call urban warfare.

Both use broadly similar mechanics. FoF uses one die per figure so the in-game math is a little faster, and they're all the same type. Instead of SG2's "I have 3 guys with AAR/GLs and one with a SAW, so that's a (check statcard) d10 for quality, another (3+3+3=9, rounds to) d10 for team Firepower, and a (check statcard) d8 for the SAW," AA/FoFs version is "I have 4 guys, +1 for the UGL, +1 for the SAW, and (measure range) +1 for optimum range. My whole force is d10 quality, so that's 7d10." Defenses work similarly. SG2: "You're (measure range) one range band away and in cover, so roll a d6." FoF: "You have 4 guys, wearing light armor, and are in cover, so roll 6 dice. Your force is Trained, so that's 6d8."

Casualties is where the games really differ.
SG2: "Ok, I rolled a 7, 8, and 3, you rolled a 4. Two dice beat your roll so that's fully effective fire… 7+8+3=18, divided by 6 = 3 armor rolls. (check statcard) Your troops are wearing Partial Light armor, so roll 3d6. Advanced Assault Rifles have (check statcard) an Impact of d10. (roll dice) OK, first hit, I rolled a 3, but your 5 beats me, he's fine. Second hit, I rolled a 6, you rolled a 5, he's wounded. Third hit, my 9 is more than twice your 4, so he's dead."

FoF: "Ok, I rolled a 10, 9, 7, 5, 4, 3, 1. The 1 and 3 don't count. You rolled an 8, 5, 4, 4, 2, the 2 doesn't count. You can't match or beat my 10 or 9, but your 8 beats my 7, and the 5 and 4 tie, so take 2 casualties. We'll see how bad they are hit at the start of next turn… Roll a d6 for each guy (roll) … That 6 means he's fine, but the 3 is seriously wounded. Send the MEDEVAC unit to them, they can only react this turn"

Faster is a tough call, but I'd argue that FoF has a flatter learning curve, so is better for a convention game.

With the right players rules don't matter. If your opponent is a knee-biting jerk you're in for three hours of misery. Good thing an all out charge can fix that.

Cheers for that, Lion in the Stars. It's not often you get an informed comparison of two sets of rules like that.

Thank you Lion that was very informative.

One oddity with the AA rules family is the attack/defense rolls. Defense is mostly based on the number of troops. So if you have a lot you can build your defense roll to 10 dice (the max). The attacker rolls then the defender trolls and chooses which dice to pair off, thus favouring lots of defenders.

I don't know about FoF, but the other big difference is ranges, SG's range si compressed ground scale (1"=10m) so it is possible to degrade shooting over range, not so in AA, its a close range skirmish, so all is in range, but bizarrely only point blank is considered 'optimum'.

Despite these things the AA family of games are still very fun to play. SG is too, but the biggest advantage SG has, is that its free. I'd recommend d/l it, try it for platoon and company games then buy AA for skirmish.

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FoF doesn't handle Defense in the same way as AA because in FoF we're not factoring in a "cloud" of insurgents, we're dealing with set sized units.

We take a WYSIWYG approach to scale, so everything on a typical table is within range for a decent rifleman.

Yes, very nice comparison, Lion! I appreciate it. Stuuh, you have some good points.

Do both games use the same number of figures?

Roughly I would say. Both games play very well with a couple of platoons per side.

I have an extra copy of Stargrunt II if you are intrested in playing.

Stargrunt II PDF

PDF link

I thought there was/ used to be an "Ambush Alley Lite" PDF around someplace, but I can't find it.

I found it. Kinda buried at the AA site. No FoF Lite set though. Got the SG2 and the counters.

Haven't been playing any games, Doug. Extra-overloaded to the legal teaching max of 7 classes with day and night classes. I'm exhausted. Might have some time this Xmas break, but looks bleak due to my father's health. Right now I get to theorize late at night about stuff I might like to do when I won't have to run my rear end off every weekend. :-( But I digress….

Stargrunt tends to flow best at a platoon plus some reinforcing elements.

How is defense handled differently in FoF from AA?

I'm just going from memory, but defense dice in FOF would be # of troops + cover + armor. But I don't think you can roll more defense dice for the number of troops than the attacker is rolling. Which lets a vastly outnumbered attacker at least have a shot at getting a hit when otherwise it would be almost statistically impossible.

Like say there's only two guys left in a squad. They roll 2 dice. The squad they're attacking has 8 guys in light armor for a total of nine defense. But they can only roll two dice + one for armor because they're only being attacked by two dice.

I might be remembering that wrong though.

You have it right, Hexxenhammer! Thanks!

How about that? Miracles do happen.

Personally, I like the way FOF handles range, meaning as a bonus to short range instead of penalties to long range. Advantageous things add dice from the base (# of troops) instead of adding or subtracting dice or modifiers for multiple things.

Like in my example, the outnumbered two man squad might have a SAW and they might be in optimum range. Then they'd have 4 dice to the big squad's 3.

Of course, they better hope that they have cover and armor and that the big squad has already reacted a bunch of times or they're going to get chewed up when the big squad shoots back.

No problem guys, although all I really did was paraphrase the combat examples they give in the rulesets (helps when both pdfs are on the computer I'm at).

Do both games use the same number of figures?

SG2 and Force on Force both run pretty well with 32-40 infantry figures per side, maybe 4-5 vehicles total. Ambush Alley works better with not more than about 16-20 infantry and a vehicle or two on the 'Regular' side and every chump with a gun in your collection on the other.

I'm personally not sure how well either one works with a company or more on the table, but I've heard that SG2 starts to really bog down at that point. Not sure about AA/FonF, but I'd assume that you're going to bog pretty close to that point as well. I haven't found a single individually-based infantry game that handles a company or more on the table very well.

Lion in the stars.
FAD4 will run a company, though you do have to use the alternate damage system in the PDF (4 dice are thrown to determine all combat outcomes from a squads fire)

Well, I guess I'll have to take a look at FAD4, then.

FAD is certainly worth looking at. The system is qute fast to use, but gives a good feel to the squad combat.

Vulture

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