"Of interest to weapons grognards?" Topic

Very cool….nothing is stranger than the truth!

BTW…what is a Grognard? I've heard the term for years, but just have never really had a good definition.

So Hitler invented the term, "assault rifle"?

Grognard means "grumbler", it was a term applied to the Old Guard. It has been used in wargaming circles for a long time (it was certainly in use when I started in 1973 or so) to denote someone who's been gaming a long time or is particularly devoted to the hobby.

What he (^) said. Personally, I like the German assault rifle with the bent barrel and periscope for shooting around corners…

Thanks for that link, it was really interesting. I never knew that the Germans had those, but I guess with a two year service life they didn't get around much. Anyone know if you van get figures armed with them?

There are films of them is use in the Battle of the Bulge.

Grognards are more likely to point out that:

- "submachinegun" is probably not the best translation of the German "maschinenpistole", when discussing what Germans called things.

- Including a shot of the FG42 being fired probably confuses things, when the subject is another weapon.

Et cetera…

Allen

>>> So Hitler invented the term, "assault rifle"?

No. He wanted it called "Sturmgewehr", which *translates* as "assault rifle".

Note the War Department's attempt to deflect the supposed "propaganda" value of the name with their own:

link

And yes, figures with them are available in multiple scales.

Allen

Hi

I thought this was one of those "everyone knows" in wargaming circles. Mostly, driven by the fascination for germans and "super weapons". Like every tank game has Mouse.

Rocky

And here I thought the Russian Federov Avtomat was the first "Assault Rifle"? LOL I would consider the MP-43/44 the first successful mass produced "Assault Rifle"

"The first true assault rifle was probably the Italian-made Cei-Rigotti, which was developed in the 1890s and finished around 1900, at the beginning of the 20th century; it never entered military service, however. The first service assault rifle was the Russian Federov Avtomat of 1916, chambered for the Japanese Arisaka 6.5 × 50 mm rifle cartridge, which was only used in small numbers due to supply problems."

" Originally created by Amerigo Cei, an officer in the Italian army, in 1890, the Cei-Rigotti rifle was extensively modified by Rigotti in 1900, and is often regarded as the first assault rifle. Over the next few years (1903 and 1911) there were improvements to its internal functions, such as its gas operation. This is also what made the Cei-Rigotti so modern, the fact that it was the first time a gas operated action was successfully used in a rifle. The rifle also featured 6.5x52mm munition in what was probably a 25 round detachable box magazine. The system, although not actually used by any army (possibly because of unreliability), was remade in Switzerland, Russia, Austria. These variations featured 8x56mm munition (Austria) and 7,62x54mm (Russia)."

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Robert

Robert

And never a mention of MKb42.
Ah well.

"And never a mention of MKb42.
Ah well."

Just not as "cool" as the MP-43/44 to some I guess. LOL. :) Robert

"Anyone know if you van get figures armed with them?"

LOL. Yes, scads of them, along with versions with IR sights etc.

What else is any self respecting 1945 SS Panzergrenadier going to be armed with?

There were actually a reasonable number in circulation towards the end of the war, even if they were largely used as ersatz SMGs rather than revolutionising infantry tactics by developing proper fireteams.

No love for the MP-3008?

Just not as well known Martin. Nor glamorous LOL. Robert

There's quite a story to the development of the MKb42. With a couple of minor changes this was redesignated MP43/Stg etc.

And yes that means it wasn't originally called a machinepistole. So the bit of the story where Hitler tells them not to make it is probably more complicated than usually described.

The development is quite impressive in ways not even touched on. They developed round and weapon at the same time. That's not how you do this sort of thing.
The decision to go with 7.62 was because they had the stats on bullet shapes already and that's the calibre they had tooling for. Truncating the design of round they already made was a shortcut that fortuitously solved problems.

I thought Hitler was agains the development of a machine gun so the developers who we convinced of the need for one designated it a 'pistol' so they could continue to develop the weapon.

Or was that the MP40 ??
HOw does the Finnish Suomi fit in with these guns in terms of development – it was on line from 1922.

Maybe it's not an assault rifle.

Si

"And yes, figures with them are available in multiple scales."

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Si

I used to be a weapons nut, but then started considering how the 80% of men with a bolt action rifle actually fought.

It seems to me that the names come and go, but what's significant is whether there's a commesurate change in tactics.
MP 43/44 seems significant as it addressed a practical requirement to increase firepower for an army on the defensive.

An alternative approach can be seen in the multiple MGs in a squad.

In terms of technical innovation, it seems to be another attempt to subdivide the ground between rifle and submachinegun already addressed by offering like the BAR, FG42, even the M1 carbine.

And here I thought the Russian Federov Avtomat was the first "Assault Rifle"? LOL I would consider the MP-43/44 the first successful mass produced "Assault Rifle"

Nah.
BAR.
-Kle.

The BAR was a good weapon but was more in the area of a light machine gun in regards to its caliber, size, weight and use IMO. Robert

Multiple mg in a squad was much more successful.
For whatever reason, the individual rifleman performed way below his theoretical capabilities.
Crew served weapons were much more effective than they should have been on paper.

Grossman and others would point to the psycholgy of shared responsibility. Others would also point to the gunner knowing the loader and squad leader could easily see where their fire was going and indeed if they were firing at all.
The practicalities of an "empty battlefield" and fleeting targets also add of course.
Up until recently you could see footage of modern firefights taking places at ranges in the order of a 100 yards or so. Not unusual for hours of shooting to result in no casualties whatsoever.

@ Hastati 'it was certainly in use when I started in 1973 or so' lol, I never knew you were that old, I was only born that year ;-p

HOw does the Finnish Suomi fit in with these guns in terms of development – it was on line from 1922.

That one is pretty much a conventional SMG firing a conventional pistol round – very succesful design in that role, but nothing particularly revolutionary.