"So many choices.... please help." Topic

Right I'm starting to go crazy and I need to make a decision. Im looking for a good Sci-fi game thats got nice minis and a good price to go with it.

Ive been looking at GW 40K but obviously there prices are a problem, also the game seems more gamey than tactical.

Ive been told about Star Grunt (and its family). There seems to be a vast range of minis or it at a reasonable price. How different does the game feel between 15mm and 25mm?

Ive seen a game called Alien Squad Leader on 15mm. But aside from a cover shot thats about all ive seen.

You may have seen various posts by me all over the place, im new to the hobby and feel like a kid in a sweet shop and could use some guidence and advice.

Im looking for a tactical game (not simulation i dont want to have to worry about every single thing that happens down to the second)

Id like it to be 1:1 for the minis, ie one man/vehicle means one man/vehicle.

Id like a wide range of scenery available to buy at a good price. So scale is probably going to be the biggest issue I suppose.

Anyway please give me the benefit of your copious knowledge :).

Thanks
Zero.

Here is a review of Alien Squad Leader: link

Cheers
Mark

It depends on the flavor you want, but I'm a big fan of Ogre/G.E.V. by Steve Jackson Games. The scale is small (roughly 6mm?), so infantry are singularly based squads of power armored troops, but everything else is 1:1. Unit types, aside from the Ogres (super cybertanks), are generic: a heavy tank is a heavy tank, which allows for quick play. Only Ogres track damage; everything else is either functioning, disabled or destroyed. You can use the hex version (based on the original boardgame) or go for the miniatures book. If you just want a quick start, the company offers a 2 page rules sheet called Ogre Miniatures Lite as a free download. Information and minis can be found here: sjgames.com/ogre/resources

It's a classic game and a lot of fun, and playable without too much money going out.

"I've been told about Star Grunt (and its family)."

That's Stargrunt (all one word). The game most people refer to is actually Stargrunt II, available free here:
link

Its "family" is Dirtside II (for larger scale ground warfare games, usually with 6mm models) and Full Thrust (spaceships), also available at that link (DSII is free, but you will have to buy FT for the princely sum of £8.00 GBP ).

"There seems to be a vast range of minis or it at a reasonable price. How different does the game feel between 15mm and 25mm?"

There is indeed, see here:
gtns.net/store1/commerce.cgi

- in both 15mm and 25mm (that's true 25mm, not those 28mm scale creep types).
Of course the really good thing is that the rules are not tied to the figures – you can use any figures you have!

Many players prefer 15mm to 25mm for SGII. The game plays exactly the same, no difference in feel whatsoever.

Beamstrike is a good choice also link

I'd say go for Stargrunt and for 15mm minis too. The game is free and GZG's supporting range of minis are both well sculpted, varied and cheap. I don't want to start any arguments about GW (so many people on here seem to feel very strongly about them!) but, objectively, the mechanics of WH40k are clunky and it doesn't allow for much in the way of tactics. And the minis take up so much room!

Another very good alternative is Crossfire. It's a WWII ruleset focusing on infantry but I use it for most of my Sci-Fi games with hardly any modifications. It's streamlined and uncomplicated so you don't get bogged down in exploiting rules and can concentrate on proper tactics instead.

Here's the inevitable link:

link

I hope that helps.

If you're looking for affordable 1:1 gaming, then 15mm is really the way to go. You can field an infantry platoon with four APCs and a pair of MBTs for support for about the same price as a single Space Marine squad with a Rhino in 40K. Not to mention, the table gets really crowded really fast with too many 28mm-scale vehicles on there, whereas 15mm allows plenty of room for tactical maneuvering, fields of fire, etc.

Stargrunt is an excellent rule set, too. Now, it doesn't get down to the level of controlling an individual grunt's personal actions (move forward 3", go prone, fire weapon, etc.), but rather lets you move the entire squad at once, engage the enemy as a squad, rally as a squad, etc. But it's still 1:1 as far as each model representing an individual soldier or vehicle.

If you want that fine level of control, consider Combat Zone from EM4 Miniatures. It uses an action point system that allows for fine control of individual troops. It's also pretty easy to learn and can be used with any minis (although EM4's plastics are about as inexpensive as you can find). The starter set is a great deal -- £15.00 GBP gets you rules, dice, cardstock terrain, and 30 miniatures (10 troopers, 15 gangers, and 5 battle robots). Hard to beat that!

link

Yes, 15mm, since there are so many nice minis and vehicles available.

For smaller, skirmish games of about 10 – 30 figs per side, you could do 25mm as well.

GZG produces minis in both scales.

What you need to do is define what you want.. so far we have:

> a tactical game
> 1:1 for the minis
> wide range of scenery available

Some questions:

How much area do you have on which to play..?

What size unit do you want to command..?
Another way of asking what level of 'tactical',
but the answer will be in numbers of figures..

How 'realistic' do you wnat your games..?
The 'hardest' SF is probably Stargrunt..
Warzone, 28mm, is billed as a techno-fantasy..
while I find 40K.. uhm..

How much do you enjoy painting figures..?
How much detail do you want on them..?
(I find 25-30mm figs fun to paint.. and 15's tedious..
Your mileage may vary..)

Vehicles.. if you want more than 1-2 vehicles
on the table, normally you are talking 10-15mm..)

BUT.. you being a Brit.. (here's where the scenery
comes in..).. all those Linka molds are 20mm..
The problem is there aint much in 20mm SF..

Your best bet at this stage is to read a lot of reviews
and battle reports.. see what grabs ya..

I went through the same problem recently after 10ish years off from 40k. Heres the results of my search:

Stargrunt = nice rules, best as a squad vrs squad game , up to a platoon, but not more (others will argue, buts me),

5150 = Great Rules, but again, going to get sticky once you reach the size of a platoon or bigger.

My solution?

I went w/ a combination of WH40K 2nd and 4 editions with my own twists.

For minis, I went with GW Eldar (pretty cheap on Ebay), GW Khorne Marines (same), and for Imperial Guard/ Arbites/ Traitor Guard/ Chaos Cultists = Pig Iron, Copplestone, and EM4 with some Old Crow Vehicles thrown in!

link
link
pig-iron-productions.com (my favorites)

Alien Squad Leader is fast & fun, and is a 1-1 representation (though infantry are based in groups of 3-5, each stand is meant to represent 3-5 actual soldiers). Since most stands can take 3 hits, we have only been using 3 figures to a stand, using magnets, so with each hit, we remove a figure.

That said, something else you should consider is what rules or games are popular in your area? Do you have any readily available opponents, and if so, what do they use? All things being equal, wargaming is usually easier and more rewarding when you have people to game with, and it helps to play the same game!

count zero99uk 17 Nov 2009 2:23 p.m. PST:

Im looking for a good Sci-fi game thats got nice minis and a good price to go with it … Im looking for a tactical game … Id like it to be 1:1 for the minis, ie one man/vehicle means one man/vehicle … Id like a wide range of scenery available to buy at a good price

Well, looks like it's time to trot out my usual hobby horse, Defiance: Vital Ground from Majestic 12 games (-:)

I've found it reasonably tactical (especially if you use the full rules), "realistic" and complex enough to be interesting without being complicated to play. Also it works on the "one singly based miniature = one trooper" maxim and has out-of-the-box rules for 15-20mm and 25-35mm.

What it doesn't have is dirt cheapness (the core rules are free to download but the full book costs something like $25 USD IIRC) and also it doesn't really have any miniatures of its own (there are six fairly nice power armoured troopers available for it but nothing further is to be expected I fear). However the beauty of it is the very powerful and balanced army creation tool (available in the full rules) so you can use pretty much any scifi or ca. 20th century onwards historical minis with the system. Also pretty much any terrain pieces will work since the terrain rules are quite abstract.

There's already example forces available for GW, Rackham's AT-43 (which go for peanuts in USA, incidentally), Pig Iron heavy infantry and a number of others. You can access everything mentioned above through here:
link

---

On the subject of terrain miniatures in general, I do believe 15mm is a little short on that at the moment. There is however quite a lot of terrain for 25-32mm scale. There's always the option of paper terrain of course, there are several manufacturers and I think their producst should downscale to 15mm fairly well.

Meanwhile, for troopers and vehicles, there's quite a few good manufacturers of 15mm scifi on the market ATM as you can attest by simply browsing these forums. OTOH the ca. 28mm scale seems to have suffered a bit from general price hikes, with Rakcham being a bit of expection but then again their prepainted plastics approach may not appeal to you. Many new manufacturers of "the large scale" seem to be going for the "upmarket" collector/small skirmish market with pricy (albeit often quite nice) miniatures of "single pose character model" type.

@mike snorbens:
link
It doesn't mention a price here.
Count: even if you get more than enough armies for 2+ players it will prove problematic at best, getting players, unless you bow to GW.

"It doesn't mention a price here."

Ah … serves me right for only looking at the catalogue page!

"Count: even if you get more than enough armies for 2+ players it will prove problematic at best, getting players, unless you bow to GW."

I think many would disagree with that POV.

How about Fast & Dirty (FAD4). It is free to download, is an excellent system and usable with any figs. We play with 28mm, mostly plastic and therefore dog cheap. Most of our plastic is Prince august ( 80 minis in 2 40 man armies for €20, big enough to give a good starter game) and some stuff from EM4. We got a few vehicles in resin, I think they were old crow.

You could have a rules system and 2 40 man, 4 squad armies for €20.00 EUR Not a bad start-up cost, and then add whatever 28mm figs you fancy.

freewebs.com/weaselfierce

link

link

Phil

It depends largely on what scale of game you want – mass combat (platoon or company sized games) or small skirmish ( a single or perhaps two squads 10-20 models a side).

If you want massed combat and have no previous terrain, etc Stargrunt or FAD or probably the best options and seem to be the most popular, with 15mm models. If you have some 28mm models and terrain around, then stick with them – it'll mean you don't have to invest so much more.

If you want skirmish games, then stick to 28mm, 15mm is too small for a good cinematic game unless to stick to small board sizes. Rules could be 5150 (its an either love or hate type), Combat Zone from EM4 miniatures or you could try Crimson Dust (which is free and currently in playtesting).

40k is good if you want a wide selection of opponents, but be prepared for it to get expensive and rather 'samey' after a while.

Future War Commnader is a fun game along the Warmaster C&C lines. It has rules for skirmish level games although I've not tried those.

Steve P

I think ill be looking at 15mm for scale and probably Stargrunt II unless i find something i hate in the rules.

Just need to find someone who does 15mm scenery in the UK.

Ill put up another post about that :)

Thanks for all the input. I really appreciate it.

@Dijit80 – I'll be either playing on a 4x6 foot table or a 4x3 foot table. We play 20mm Arc of fire on the 4x6 so im sure it would be fine for 15mm. I havent done anything except paint on the smaller one. Would that be too small for 15mm?

Thanks again.
Zero

"I havent done anything except paint on the smaller one. Would that be too small for 15mm?"

If you halve all the distances and ranges in SG II it'll be fine. I made a "half scale" ruler by photoreducing a 12" ruler to 50% and then laminating it.

For terrain, consider all the Middle Eastern stuff out there for FOW and other 15mm WWII/modern games. Sure, it has a Mos Eisley feel to it, but add a few of GZG's building details and you might be pleasantly surprised.

Some makers of 15mm buildings would include JR Miniatures, Crescent Root Studios, Old Crow Models, Hovels, MBA, etc. Here's a good list:

link

javeline98, thats a great link thanks :)

Im looking forward to getting started now :)

Many people who don't live in Townsville, mr Snorbens.

Someone else already mentioned my FAD rules upthread, so I don't feel bad about plugging them here.

FAD has the benefit of giving you a lot more options to mess with than Stargrunt does, more comprehensive design options, scenarios, campaign rules etc.

That being said, Stargrunt is a fine game (in fact, I played this last week, introducing the game to a new gamer). If you do go with it, I'd check ebay or similar for a copy of the counter sheets, as they make life a lot easier

"That being said, Stargrunt is a fine game (in fact, I played this last week, introducing the game to a new gamer). If you do go with it, I'd check ebay or similar for a copy of the counter sheets, as they make life a lot easier"

Thanks Weasel – actually we can still sell you the SGII counter sheets – the hardcopy books are all gone (hence the free PDF version) but we do still have some counter stocks, at £4.00 GBP per set (including a free SGII quick ref sheet).

Jon (GZG)
gzg.com

Outstanding. That makes it easier than the vagaries of ebay.
I lost my reference sheets too, so may have to order some stuff from you guys again soon :)