"Few versus many games" Topic

Is it possible to make a game where one side plays a few miniatures against the other side that has alot? It works in a game like Space hulk because of limited space, but I'm wondering if it's possible to do something like 10 guys in power armor versus 100 or more 'bugs' or aliens or something, and keep it interesting?

Seems to me it would really just break down into a lot of dice rolling and very little 'tactics'.

The trick would be to give the few enough interesting options, while not giving the many too many.

If each heroic figure is independent and has abilities you need to choose and use wisely, while the horde figures move in some sort of groups* and have few individual choices, I think it could work.

* About as many groups as there are heroic individuals.

5150 handles this with their variable scenario system.

You can end up facing a lot of bugs if not careful!

Just a few ideas.

You can also have the defenders lay traps like minefields. Set automatic guns like in the movie aliens, call in artillery strikes.

To make it more tactical have lots of terrain. Places the defender can fall back to.

Have the defenders run out of ammo, and have to run back to re-supply or look for more.

Maybe have the defenders also evacuate civilians.

All Things Zombie is a few against many system. At one point me and my buddy were facing 47 Zeds.. not pretty :)

The good thing about ATZ is that there are alot of tactics you can use and the system rewards you for playing smart.

On the other hand, if you jump in the nearest '57 chevy and drive straight through the Hanna Montanna Fashion Mall with guns blazing, you'd better have some great dice rolls :)

I know that we have played a few games of Force on Force from Ambush Alley Games using some GZG Neo-Israelis as HALO Spartans versus much superior forces. These are 15mm troops, so we can have a large battlefield with a lot of troops involved. We made the Spartan units elites (D12 Dice) versus enemies that were inferior (D6 and D8). The scary fact was that the Spartans were taking a lot of fire and just kept coming. They were rather scary and watching the devastation, it will be a long time before I want to see D12 troops in FoF again. The nice thing about FoF is that the mechanics have a Reaction based system, so a unit like the Spartans get a chance to fire at any units that attack them until they run out of firepower that turn. This turns out very much like a SciFi novel or Anime where the heavy armor guys wade through an ocean of bugs trying not to get overrun. Not sure what would have happened in close combat since we did not manage to get that close, but I think that may have turned the tide with enough bugs attacking at the same time. Once the Spartans have a few guys down as dependents they have to carry, the battle would definitely change.

Jeff

Lord of the rings does this. It doesn't work out super well in all cases but the heroes do tend to make swiss cheese out of a lot of their opponents. The game can be fairly strategic as well.

I think 40K does it pretty well too. Certainly you can take horde armies in that game. We've had games where it was Grey Knights vs. Kroot. At 25 pts a model minimum on the Grey Knights and 8 pts a model on the kroot, there was quite an imbalance. There were few kroot models worth more than the low points cost whereas Grey knights had terminator squads that were 50 pts each. So in an equal 1500 pt game you would have more than 100 kroot on the table and maybe 30 Grey Knights and a land raider.

Tactics can come into it depending on the victory conditions for the few. The 'hold until relieved'(D-Day Para's) type game or a fighting withdrawl game, are a couple I can think of and there are many more in movies that can be used.

Mick

Battlefront had a whole series of "Raid" scenarios that did exactly this, it works handily if the scenario is designed to have differeing victory conditios for the few-against-many game. Too many people forget there is more to a game than lining up your toys and seeing wo kills who first. Scenarios are always better than straight-up fights IMO.

Take a hint from DnD 4e. The few have hit points and saving throws, the many all have 1 hit point and no saves (minions). You still need to HIT them but if you do they go.

40k can work well in the right circumstances. Back in White Dwarf 222 (2nd edition 40k), there was a brilliant redux of Rourke's Drift. It was something like like 30 imperial guard in a compound facing several waves of Orks that eventually numbered in the hundreds.

They made it work by introducing a few senario rules. Limiting the Ork's shooting abilities (they had to charge over open ground) and making each wave break en masse when a certain casualty limit was reached. Also, there was provisions for medics healing wounded guardsmen between Ork attack waves, and for the Ork player to re-use troops that have been killed so he wouldn't have to have 400 Orks in his collection.

It's still my favorite battle report ever, and probably one of the most evocative of a "realistic" senario if such a thing can be said about 40k.

"if it's possible to do something like 10 guys in power armor versus 100 or more 'bugs' or aliens or something, and keep it interesting?"

Those are only odds of 10:1, achieved with a fair degree of regularity on axes of main effort in lots and lots of twentieth century operations. In many cases the defenders won, aided by barbed wire, machineguns, rapid firing artillery, minefields, deep duguots, flexible defence or whatever. The IDF defence of the Golan heights in 1973 faced odds of more like 20:1. They won as well.

So, any decent set of modern rules which correctly models the advantages of prepared defences and doctrinal/command superiority should be able to deal with numerically asymmetrical conflicts. Where it gets really interesting is when the outnumbered side has to attack (like the IDF in 1967), 1:3 is a bit more reasonable for that.

Anyway, to answer the OP, yes it is quite possible to make decent games where one side is heavily outnumbered, as that is the situation which often faces real soldiers. It is usually easier to set these things up with the weaker side defending, ideally hidden in prepared positions. The equalizer in these situations ar either material advantage (equipment, defences) or quality (leadership/morale/C3) or a combination.

There's OGRE as a classic example.

Most zombie and bug games also do few vs. many. Most Sci-fi or Fantasy skirmish games can do this by the nature of a points system with expensive powerful things and cheap weak things.

I think any feeling that tactics are lacking depends on whether the few are just standing and firing, or if there's some mission that requires maneuver. I'd agree that a static defense game could come down to lots of dice rolls.

I see no reason why you can't do that.

If you don't want to roll 100 dice for the larger side, with very low odds, do it with better odds, by squads of 10, or fireteams of 5 troops.

The 10 superior troops roll individually. For the inferior troops, you roll once for each squad, or fireteam.

10 vs. 100 (in squads of 10) roll exactly the same number of dice. To make it a bit more interesting for the side playing the horde, and just for a better feel, I suggest he still get more dice rolls, e.g. 20 for fireteams of 5 troops.

Obviously, the fireteams will have half the effectiveness of the squads, to balance things out. Chances for the 10 vs. 100 should be the same, e.g.:

50% chance for a kill for the 10 superior troops, per shot;

and 2.5% chance for the 20 fireteams, per shot, assuming everything else is equal.

That's how we do things with naval wargaming, where most of the shots are misses, so only the hits are dealt with, and the other rounds are ignored.

"'bugs' or aliens or something, and keep it interesting?"

Scenario design and mission objectives are vital to keep interest.

"Seems to me it would really just break down into a lot of dice rolling and very little 'tactics'."

I have struggled with this one myself since the bugs come on like a horde of Zulus and get shot dead or they triumph in close combat. I think the answer is in having different kinds of bugs in your army with different abilities.

Large armored bug with thick carapace that can take lots of damage and dish it out. When it dies its offsrping burst out of it's body like a grotesque APC.

Spitter bugs with some kind of limited ranged attack.

Flying bug or at least one that can hop.

Some specific abilities that are unique but do not unbalance the overall theme of the army. Bug tunnels and holes come to mind but also give the bugs the ability to burrow into the ground like Zerg to avoid fire. (i.e. The marine runs to one side of the compound, brings his weapon to bear just in time to see the horde vanish beneath the surface. On the other side of the compound the bugs emerge and continue to advance etc…)

Your original statement said ten guys in power armor. I find it even harder to find balance when I introduce vehicles and they can drive or fly away if the bugs get to close.

I will add some kind of mortar bug with a bio attack. It does not have to be an accurate weapon or highly effective but something to make the power armor guys think twice about standing back to back and blazing away.

Perhaps those with vehicles are: low on fuel, or in a canyon or other constricting terrain (narrow peninsula, path through a forest or mountains, etc.), where they can't easily escape, etc.

Lots of games like that, several have been mentioned above. Here's another example I've got stashed away somewhere which could be adapted to miniatures.

link

Ambush Alley is predicated on the few vs. many structure and is, if I do say so myself, a darned fine tactical game. If your fireteams on the "few" side of the equation don't support each other's fire and movement, the "many" will eat them alive.

Kilkrazy, I was just going to mention Outpost Gamma. I only own it as a download (legally) but it looks very interesting. Agree that it would make a nice minis game.

"On the other hand, if you jump in the nearest '57 chevy and drive straight through the Hanna Montanna Fashion Mall with guns blazing, you'd better have some great dice rolls :)"

Isn't that what attracted those 47 zombies in the first place Mike???? 8D

40k also has the infamous "movie Marine" article from a couple years ago. Space Marines as they are depicted in the fluff, with "movie star" immunity added on top. Made the garden-variety Marine about three times the normal point value, but they just rip through the minions like so much wet paper…