"Lance against square." Topic

Old bear,

That extra length (it is actually a greater difference as a standard British Napoleonic musket with bayonet is about 1.85m, making the extra reach 0.92m) is massively significant. As I said above, we tried it with sticks cut to length; it was very easy for the mounted people to hit the foot people without the latter being able to hit back. Also, a French or Polish Napoleonic lance is incredibly light; you can easily hold it by the far end and use it to thrust.

Also, you do not need to thrust ahead of the horse; you thrust sideways while the horse is side-on to the infantry.

However, I suspect that what often happened when the weather was wet was that the infantry squares would look at the lancers, think "Oh " and either surrender or break and run, the latter being a very bad move!

Colin

Hi Colin,

One also has to take into account the length of the horse's neck and head if thrusting ahead, and that appears to presume that the horse is completely happy with standing right up against a hedge of bayonets.

On the subject of fighting sideways, I would wonder whether that would expose the flanks of the hoirse to an unprotected bayonet thrust?

Old Bear,

Fighting sideways would expose the horse's flank but the limited reach of the infantryman and the need for the square to remain solid makes an attack on the horse pretty much a non-starter. To get to the horse, the infantry soldier has to move forward from the square; such action was not exactly recommended as it would soon lead to a loss of cohesion. Again, we tried it all out; the lancers can pretty much pick the infantry off at will.

As to why not more cavalry was carrying lances – a lance doth not a lancer make. According to family lore of my ulan grandfather, lance fencing was a special, restricted course even among (pre-WWI) Prussian Ulans – it wasn't just a question of being taught, you had to have some aptitude for it. Graduates were expected to fend off three sword- or sabre-armed opponents at once. – All of which was a fat lot of use a few years later in the Flanders mud…

Musketier,

Indeed; training a lancer was a notoriously difficult process; a poorly trained lancer was a real liability.

Super information and leaves a lot of points for good debates.

One thing that strikes me is that people are looking at the same data with different 'glasses'.

Some are looking at it as to what memoirs eveidence is there; others from what battle reports exist; otehrs on the concept development of lance tactics vs infantry; otehrs napoleonic references only.

I always look at such data from a convenrion of data and examples into useable mechanics for gaming rules or scenarios for games..

In most cases such approaches lead to many points of view and some confusion but that is what adds to good debates.

Some more evidence for the effectiveness of lances against squares (particularly in the rain):

1. Sergeant James Anton of the 42nd Highlanders commented on his experience of Quatre Bras that lancers could use their lances with considerable precision and with deadly effect without bringing the horse within reach of the bayonet.

2. At Dresden in 1813 Latour-Maubourg used a small force of lancers to "spear" their way into squares of Austrian infantry, who could not fire because of the wet weather.

3. At the Katzbach, again in the rain, French chasseurs found themselves unable to break a Prussian square; the task was taken over by a lancer regiment who quickly destroyed the square.

Colin,

I had not read the first reference which does seem to support Rudy's contention that trained lancers were well capable of engaging a square in some degree of comfort (given the right circumstances, of course!) As such it appears I stand corrected. :)

Old Bear,

Spoken like a true gentleman!

Colin

It's a pleasure!

The experiment was slightly flawed as the horses were not battle trained, neither were the people, nobody was actually trying to kill anyone, and there were not enough of us to recreate the effect of neighbouring files of infantry. However, one thing became clear: the "lancers" did not have too many problems "sticking" the front rank of the square; they could then move on to the second rank, and so on. It certainly showed that, in the right conditions, lancers could unpick a square.

Only SLIGHTLY flawed?

I appreciate the debate and the examples provided. For the purpose of 'recreating' Napoleonic battles in minitures, I am not interested in what happened outside the confines of that era.

Maybe I can accurately hit a target 150 yards away with a smoothbore musket. That doesn't mean I should scale the shooting of my infantry battalions out to 150 yards.

The discussion of cavalry tactics is something that is nearly overwhelming to me. I literally spent an entire YEAR out of my hobby doing nothing but researching cavalry charges in the Napoleonic wars and just cannot come up with a definitive way model it. There were so many variations on tactics – even from the SAME GENERALS – that I just can't declare one tactic better than another. Even with lancers.

Clay to me the key to such rule mechanic design lies in the level of combat that you want to game.

If it skirmish, one set of parameters exist. For tactical combat it gets a more and some say the most complex. The complexity drops from that the higher in command (unit troop ratio) levels that you go. By the time you get to 1:50 and no doubt 1:100, you are looking at unit activity and not individual examples for your groundwork concepts.

So establish your level of unit size and troop ratio as your first priority. Then it makes it easier which data to convert into concepts and later mechanics.

M. Sage,

The word "slightly" was somewhat tongue in cheek:). However, the experiment did prove the key point, which was nice as it backed up what is available in the contemporary memoirs and reports .

Clay,

I suspect that there is no definitive way of modelling it. For me, this is the attraction of higher command level games; the detail can be "ignored" and a reasonable result obtained without worrying about, for example, the factors applied to highly trained Polish lancers using their lances "par le moulinet" when in combat against Austrian lancers armed with shorter weapons.