"Tolkien: Was he Racist?" Topic

I'm not one to blow the Racist horn nor by the Racist card, but it strikes me as very strangely that everyone in the Tolken world who was not white was somehow evil.

Case in point, Khand, Harad and the Easterlings. All are evil but none, not even a single person from any of the three lands were even good at all. Basically the message he tries to send is white (Gondor, Rohran) are good while the evil men of the south (khand, harad and the Easterlings) are all evil.

I mean I understand that its for his time and such, but shouldn't there be at least some good people from either of these 3 nations?

Showing my naivety here – but when I read it – it was a great story of men against monsters. That's all.

Cheers
Mark

First of all – spell it right and then take this to the Blue Fez. This Isn't appropriate forum discussion as it will get into politics and other disallowed topics here.

Sometimes it is helpful not to inject 21st century PC thought into fiction. Just enjoy the book and and remember it is FICTION…….

Of his time of course, and not racist with a big 'R' if you know what I mean.

He supported Jewish people in some way (don't remember the full story off hand) during the initial days of the Nazis. Also he was critical of Britain's pre-war colonial policies.

Middle Earth seems to me based on North-West Europe with human enemies being analogues of the enemies of Christendom ie Moors, Saracens, perhaps Mongols?

Not all the bad guys were necessarily coloured – nobody knows anything about the men of Khand. Very little is known about the Easterlings or Haradrim, though I think once they are described as swarthy (which could mean anything from an Italian/Spanish tan and dark hair to fully black). Dunlendings could be any colour, though usually thought of as white.

Samwise's hand was described as 'brown' maybe a tan from his outdoors life but who knows? Also Sam descibes the Haradrim and thinks that they don't look evil, wondering if they were duped or forced into going to war.

There are things that writers would avoid these days like the 'Black Numenoreans' for the renegades, but black obviously referring to night, and the Lord of Darkness, rather than skin colour of course.

Don't feed the !

See link

Sauron, Saruman, Gryma Wormtongue…

all were members of the supposedly "white" races, and major villains of the series.

TheNomadicHorde's attempt to inject his own racial views into LOTR demonstrates ignorance. Probably thinks that Bilbo turned some of his ancestors into stone.

Thanks for the Info. I did not see the wiki link. If this has caused any problems I apologize.

Numenoreans and other humans were both evil and good. So were the elves and dwarves for that matter. Can one honestly say that Feanor was Good? I wouldn't.
Smeagol/Gollum was a Halfling.

The Easterlings and Haradrim were simply under the influence of Sauron. If it were his intent to tell stories abotu them, I am sure he might have come up with some good ones.

To complicate things, there were also Black Numenoreans, but it was not necesary to be Black to be evil.

I first said: ing then I looked at his first visit date and realized it was someone new to TMP…
--
Tim

Nope

I think he lived in a different world from ours. Light and white was the metaphorical code to indicate the good, darkness and black was considered evil or just bad. I am convinced that there was no racist thought in it. I thought about it too, but if you can go and read when the haradrim chief dies in the ambush in ithilien. You can feel that Tolkien thinks that he is just a human being caught by the events, mislead, but not necessarily evil. Only the orcs and their lords and servants are "dark" and wear black clothes… because that's the rapresentation of evil in the european and catholic tradition.

Khand, harad and the east are the enemy of the free people. He simply talks about the enemies. If you tell somebody that doesn't know it the history of WWII, I am sure they would think that the germans were evil, even if not all of them were nazis.

I would'nt care if he was a white nationalist. I like the stories and I will continue to enjoy them. I also like other people with unfashionable ideas such as R.E. Howard, E.R. Burroughs, and Lovecraft. Does it make me a bad person? Probably.

People who hate it can read other fantasy novels like Haley's "Roots".

Probably…like most everyone else of the era. But I don't care as I get what I want from what I read and not what others tell me I should take away.

I was part of a round table seminar at a convention back in the early 1980s. The issue at that time was what historical castings could be used for various Human armies in Tolkin.

The Rohan had Normans traits. several pushed for Gothic (Visigoths). The Southerlings were Ababic and Saheal African. The Easterlings were Mongols but some favored Huns. Gondor were 100 years War era Europeans. I cannot remember who the Pirates were?

This was a seminar easy to remember as martian Metals in the 1970s had used similar relationships when they did their Lord of the Rings 15mm range.

Tolkin being a racist did not enter the debate. A European centric did.

This Racist issue REALLY bugs me. We look at society now as slavery being a bad and evil thing and that all people are created equal. but that is NOT what it was like 100 years ago. Many of the writers of the declaration of independence had slaves…are they all cruel and evil people? No, they were just the people of that era.

ALSO, a news flash guys, ALL races were slaves at all points of life, so no it wasn't always colored people that were slaves (Egyptians).

Do I think J.R.R. Tolkien a racist? NO! not in anyway way shape or form. If anything, he accidentally wrote it in the book without thinking a second thought off, "hmm I wonder if 100 years from now people will think this is racist". I dont think he wrote it to be intentionally racist, or that any of the races mentioned in the book are what people think they are. Descriptions are like weight, location location location. To some poor african children, a guy that is a little chubby is just HUGE to them, so also think of it in that direction.

Keep in mind that the Professor deliberately and self-admittedly set out to create a mythology "for my people," "for the English". The English are fair-skinned, northern European people. Their own folklore reflects this influence. It would have been rather odd for Tolkien to deviate very much from this perspective, then, wouldn't it? For most of Europe's history, the native tribes there were always fighting to either repel or conquer outsiders from the East and South. LOTR reflects this to a natural degree. If Tolkien had been Asian or African or writing from a consciously Asian or African viewpoint, no doubt things would be different. Still wouldn't make him a "racist" (whatever is meant by that loaded term).

As others have noted, not all those with fair appearances in Tolkien's books are "good".

Trying to apply a modern PC orthodoxy to literature, especially older literature, is an exercise in pointlessness. You either enjoy the story as it is, on its own terms, or you don't. But it's literature, not politics or sociology.

"ALSO, a news flash guys, ALL races were slaves at all points of life, so no it wasn't always colored people that were slaves (Egyptians). "

Slavery and racism are to different issues. You don't have to be, have been, or once upon a time suffered from slavery to be prejudiced against. One race not liking another is all that qualifies.

Was Tolkiens racist? yes, he hated Orcs and Goblins, killed them at every oppurtunity. Allowed other to commit genocide on them. Tsk.

Tolkien was a child of his time, and that influenced his writing.

The mythology for the English idea died early on, but Middle-Earth continued.

The "Good races" had plenty of evil individuals in them, and there is no real evidence that the Easterlings were Asiatic.

Numenoreans in fact fell in one part by subjugating the Haradrim.

Orcs are fallen Elves, twisted and brutalised, influenced perhaps by the industrial slums of Birmingham (in the Black Country)

There is no evidence to support the supposition of the original poster

Hmmm…it's "fantasy" right? Exactly who is he offending? Elves? Orcs? Maybe those short fellows?

Star Trek used to handle topics like this in Sci-Fi so Gene could preach without actually using real examples.

The black-white white-black face one is the best example for this.

Everything I ever needed to learn I learned from Star Trek.

"Numenoreans in fact fell in one part by subjugating the Haradrim."

And the name *Black* Numenoreans denoted no change in skin color.

Allen

No.

Imagine a story about El Cid – a racist white guy beating up evil non-whites. The horror!

I have read Tolkien many times, and never have I even thought about racism while reading. In my opinion, only the PC, (maybe racists themselves), would think about that in such a great story. BTW, I am not PC, I say exactly what is on my mind. If you don't want my honest opinion, don't ask.

Ahh look at this thread on a fish hook, no not biting …bye.

I dont think he was rascist,but I do think he was smoking too much pipeweed when he wrote the sections with Tom Bombadil….

The Dunlendings were "bad guys" and they were fair skinned too. Weren't they?

They were simply uncultured and led astray by Saruman the… erm… White.

Allen

Not racist but inevitably Euro-centric--and he was of course a professor of Anglo-Saxon.
Middle Earth is inspired by the Anglo-Saxon world of Beowulf and the like.Of necessity this gives a relatively narrow and specific world view.In that world,the bad guys are the migrating hordes from the east--irrespective of their skin colour.
I always had a mental image of the Haradrim as Saracens-probably all those scimitars-reinforced by the Minifigs interpretation which was on similar lines--but really any of those various hordes of horsemen-Huns,Mongols-- which were the bane of Western Europe for so long.They are obvious natural opponents for the westerners of Middle Earth.
I thought it amusing that Peter Jackson ducked this potential issue in the films by keeping their faces covered!

I'm sure that if you met him today, he'd seem like something of a bigot. He lived a long time ago, after all.

Not much point in holding it against him, really.
-Kle.

Nope. Not then, not now, not ever. Nothing he has written or has been quoted as saying that I have seen would indicate to me that he had any of that in him. More likely modern folks just looking to start a needless controversy.

I've never thought of Tolkien as racist… but I do think the the 'monoculture' of most fantasy races in mainstream literature is a bit… simplistic.
Characters that are their 'race' first and individuals second.

Humans usually get to be a lot more varied though… so maybe it's just an ethnocentric lack of imagination when fleshing out fantasy cultures.

I've wondered about this from time to time. Here is the only LOTR passage I can think of that seems to address it:

"Then suddenly straight over the rim of their sheltering bank, a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.

"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace—all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind."

Certainly, the good guys seem to be white guys. But are the bad guys bad BECAUSE they are dark? I think this passage says otherwise, but draw your own conclusion.

I honestly don't even think that he considered race or racism in his writing. I think he just told a story from his point of view.

When the hosts of Mordor are marshalling Sam and Frodo look at some men who are described as having black skin and red tongues, Sam wonders if they are part Troll. This does not neccesarilly mean Sam was racist. It just means that Sam was rather parochial and had never in his life met (or even heard of) people we would describe as "negro". This is much the same as white people looking like "maggot folk" or pale and sickly to people from naturally dark skinned groups.

I don't think Tolkien describes any of the races of Men as being intrinsicaly evil. Some have been misled by Sauron and Saruman and the ruined towers on the borders of the Shire look to have been built by "wicked men". The Witch King and the other Nazgul were simply men, proud and strong whom Sauron corrupted with the nine rings. No mention is made of their race.

Sauron himself we are told walked in "fair form" and so misled the elves.