"Russian Infantry belting - 1805-7" Topic

I love the early period Russian uniforms, the bushy plume, the cylindrical haversack. But I have never been able to understand the belting to my satisfaction.

The sabre and bayonette were suspended by a waist belt, worn over the right shoulder in the field (and eventually changed into a shoulder belt permanently). The cartridge box belt worn over the left shoulder.

But the cylindrical haversack, supposedly worn over either shoulder, would have to be on another shoulder belt. But I can't understand how it was kept from sliding down under the arm. What kept it in place?

Does anyone have a source or info on how the cylindrical haversack was belted? Both Osprey and Funken fake their way past it.

Thanks

I've never seen the suggestion that the sword belt was worn over the shoulder in the field. I'd be grateful for a reference if it's available.

I believe the problem with the back, uh, valise, is that Viskovatov illustrated it incorrectly. From his description, I believe there was a buckle in the center, and the belt attached perpendicular to cross belt, i.e forming an X, which would probably be a lot more stable than if it were in-line as V. seems to illustrate.

This is where a picture saves a thousand words ;-(

Patrice Courcelle shows the valise being held by an adjustable strap – there is a small buckle at either end of the inside/back of the valise. The strap is attached to the left hand one (looking at the back), the strap is fed under the right shoulder board, then the strap is pulled as tightly as possible under the left armpit, and the whole worn as high as possible. Seems awkward to do by yourself and there would be a risk that if it wasn't as tight as possible then it would swing down under the left arm. There doesn't seem to be any button/loop arrangement to prevent it moving, nor does Courcelle show any buckle in the centre of the back of the valise that could be attached to any shoulder belt to anchor it, although that would be the sensible arrangement to my way of thinking. If the strap was fixed at both ends, it could be swung over the right shoulder, the board then being fastened over it and the strap then tightened.

I'd also doubt that the sword belt was worn across the shoulder as shape and manufacture don't seem to allow it, at least as far as the Courcelle illustrations go. The sabre hilt would be under the chin if the drawings are right.

About that waist belt – I got it wrong. My sournce, William H. Murray, indicates that for field use, a cross belt was SUBSTITUTED for the waist belt. It wasn't the same belt.

So what I get is that the valise was attached to a cross belt perpendicular to it which passed over the right shoulder (under the shoulder flap) and under the left arm pit. The valise would then extend from the left shoulder to the right kidney when fastened in place.

As far as I know, no figure maker shows this belt.

Basically you have it, although Courcelle shows it, and says it in the notes accompanying the plate, that the strap was worn as high as possible, so the belt would look as if it was worn straight across the chest, above the pecs. This makes the valise look as if it is worn across the shoulders when viewed from the side, or very slightly down at the left hand side when viewed from the back of the man rather than lying at a 45 degree angle from the right shoulder to the left kidney (right to left rather than left to right is what is shown in the illustration).

should have googled it first -

there is a small version of the Courcelle plate here

link

on the right side of the page, in the 3rd yellow section from the top. Should give you the idea. It is actually one of a pair of plates, the 2nd one has the close up of the valise, buckles and straps but isn't shown on this site.

The AB early Russians quite clearly have this strap shown, the Musketeer in Bicorne has it running over the rolled greatcoat, picked simply because it is the 1st figure shown on the Eureka site, and it is also on the Elite 25mm chaps, shown on some painted examples in the products pages, again shown over the rolled greatcoat.

Sorry! I got that backwards. The valise was attached at the ends. Viskovatov has one illustration which elides the attachment.

the valisse was not attached to the cross belts but held on its own belts as described by shortcut.

also I am not aware that the waistbelt was worn as cross belt but stayed on as waistbelt in the wars of 1799 – 1807.

Here some pictures

picture

picture

picture

You will note that the NCOs valisse is diagonally vice versa to the rank and file, rank and file to to have the right end high and left end low, in order to open the cartridge box – does AB cover these fine print as well?

picture

and here a marching unit where the strap carrying the valisse might be mistaken as cross belt, which it wasn't, the waistbelt clearly on the waist.

picture

to add more

Jäger seemingly also did carry the valisse like the NCOs there they did have the cartridge pouch at the front

picture

and in contrast a line infantry soldier (here guards)

picture

Von Winterfelt,

That last picture really tells the tale. The suspension strap was attached at each end of the valisse, then passed over either shoulder and under the other. I would expect it to be generally over the right shoulder for ease of access to the cartridge pouch.

Thanks to all.

vW has is right. Viskovatov specifically mentions that it was over the right shoulder for grenadiers and musketeers, but over the left for NCO's and jaegers.

That makes sense. The NCOs and Jaegers had belly-mounted cartridge pouches. So over the left shoulder must have been the prefered position. Perhaps to avoid conflict with the saber.

vw, that's the best picture I've seen of this arrangement, this is a great thread!