"Withdrawal during battle" Topic

I am trying to understand how troops withdrew from battle during the AWI and SYW timeframe. My understanding is that firefights were often at pointblank range-often 30-50 yards. Yet regiments did withdraw if circumstances dictated.

How could a regiment withdraw, when turning your backs on an enemy only 30 yeads distant risks a charge which could arrive in seconds? Was withrawal done by companies. One company withdraws while another holds it position until the first is in place, then followed by the other company? Or was there a specified rapid pace when withdrawing in the face of the enemy?

Or once locked in close range firefight, basically neither withdrew until one or the other routed? However I am fairly certain I have read of organized, intentional withdrawals from firefights. I could understand if the distances were larger, say 80 yards or greater. But at 30 yards, it is hard to understand.

I asusume it was some sort of fire and moviment, backing up faced thowards the enemy. Mabye half the companies firerd while the other back up, then they would fire and the first ones would back up,

But at anyrate they would not trun their back on the enemy at that range, but back away

They would have gon backwards while still facing the enemy, probably fully loaded so if an opportunity charge was tried, it would get messy….

Even so it is the kind of order that took stronge nerves and good discipline to do in an ordely fashion, and one mistake could have been fatal, especially if cavalry was to hand.

But at anyrate they would not trun their back on the enemy at that range, but back away

Backing up has to be awfully slow and heavily dependent on terrain. Turning your back means moving quickly and reforming facing the enemy before the enemy can react.

In heavy battle smoke, the enemy may not notice a retrograde movement quickly, plus they must prepare the men to charge. Maybe it isn't as dangerous as it seems to turn your back on the enemy even at close range. It would only take seconds, perhaps a minute or so, to withdraw 30 or 50 yards, halt and face the enemy.

Didn't that happen in the south at Cowpens or Guilford House? Didn't the third American line retreat in the face of the Brits and then turn and fire a heavy volley into the disorganized Brits following the withdrawing Americans?

I am having a hard time visualizing a battle line marching backwards. It just doesn't seem practical on a battlefield-maybe on a perfectly flat parade ground.

Marching no, but steps at a time with markers would be feasable. Biggest issue would be a whole battle line doing it, the possibilities for disjointing the line would be horrendous.

Certainly any troops would be very wary of turning their backs in the face of the enemy, you are very exposed and vulnerable at that point.

Isn't this just a passage of lines manouvre?

Reserve line either holds or advances, opens up gaps.

Front line forms columns, turns about and marches rapidly away through the gaps.

Reserve line is now the new front line.

Repeat as necessary.

If you have no reserve line, you are stuffed of course.

Anyway, it is a manouvre, designed to allow falling back.

I will have to look it up but at either Cowpens or Guilford House, the third line started to retreat and IIRC, TURNED, faced the Brits and fired into them at pointblank range. If they turned, then they had their backs to the brits.

But turn this all around. What was a charge? How much preparation was required to charge when in a firefight? Did troops have to fix bayonets before charging? Could troops fire easily with fixed bayonets and thus moved into battle with bayonets already fixed? Did all companies have to be notified along the battleline to prepare to charge or was a simple drumbeat or bugle call enough to launch the whole line forward simultaneously?

Was the charge at a full run like in Braveheart or just a rapid pace movement forward. A full run would destroy formation and severely hurt command and control. I always assumed a SYW or AWI charge was a rapid walk while maintaining formation but I may be wrong.

This 1764 Manual includes the instructions for 'retreating while firing'.

PDF link

Basically fire is conducted by the front rank who then march back to the rear of the line. New front rank fires. Repeat.
Unit stays facing front in combat, but slowly moves back.

It also has the drill for retreat.

Front line forms columns, turns about and marches rapidly away through the gaps.

If the firefight is at pointblank 30-50 yards distance, how could they have the time to form column? And forming column is a very vulnerable to fire.

I assumed they would maintain their line formation when withdrawing because changing formation at pointblank range seems very dangerous.

Although a successful withdrawal really depends on how quickly the attackers could react to the defenders movement. The withdrawing troops must complete their move before the attackers can capitalize on the vulnerability of the withdrawing troops.

Perhaps an off the cuff charge was rare in the AWI or SYW timeframe. Thus a retreat at pointblank range is not so dangerous.

Of Firing in Retreating.
At the Command, the Front Rank, (namely that which happens to be in Front) makes ready, presents, and fires. It then recovers, goes to the right About, marches with a quick Step Behind the Rear Rank as far as the Officer thinks fit, fronts and loads. As soon as the Commander of the new Front Rank sees that the one which has fired is formed and loaded, he give the Command, upon which the Front Rank makes ready, presents, and fires ; then recovers and faces to the right About, marches with a quick Step into the Rear of the First, fronts and loads. In this Manner both Ranks retire, supporting each Other. When the Fire in
retiring is to cease, the commanding Officer gives the Command to halt.

Thanks Martin! There is the answer and it is logical.

Note it states:

It then recovers, goes to the right About, marches with a quick Step Behind the Rear Rank as far as the Officer thinks fit, fronts and loads.

The retreating front line moves as "far back as the Officer thinks fit". So the front rank could pull back 5, 10, 15 yards or more to set the new fallback line. The withdrawal could be fast or slow.

I am going to have to read that whole manual. That is a good link.

That drill sounds like a logical development from the "fire by introduction/extraduction" technique used in the English Civil War.

Hi

you are describing two different bits of drill. Fire by introduction/extradition dates back to deep formations and early matchlocks, and continues until WW1

You can see a movie. Watch the fight over the mealy bags in Zulu!

The other is turning away as described, then turning back.

A little more difficult. And it requries that you have never been shot at to misunderstand. The really short version is that, with guns, taking a volley, there is always a period where the target is STOPPED. Bullets flying smoke and noise, it takes a few moments for command and the rankers to start actually responding again.

Again, a movie version is the late battle in"The Patriot". Just watch are realize the TERROR you feel in the scene where the camera takes a volley.

Rocky

Now that the withdrawal question is settled, I am curious about the charge.

What was a charge? How much preparation was required to charge when in a firefight? Did troops have to fix bayonets before charging? Could troops fire easily with fixed bayonets and thus moved into battle with bayonets already fixed? Did all companies have to be notified along the battleline to prepare to charge or was a simple drumbeat or bugle call enough to launch the whole line forward simultaneously?

Was the charge at a full run like in Braveheart or just a rapid pace movement forward. A full run would destroy formation and severely hurt command and control. I always assumed a SYW or AWI charge was a rapid walk while maintaining formation but I may be wrong.

The battle scenes in The Patriot were pure Hollywood. Nothing like the real thing.

"Fire by introduction/extradition dates back to deep formations and early matchlocks,"

what I said. In fact, I said the drill for withdrawal under fire was a development of the ECW drill, not the same thing as.

"and continues until WW1"

I am not aware of any use of the technique in WWI or indeed any wars after the 17th century.

"What was a charge? … I always assumed a SYW or AWI charge was a rapid walk while maintaining formation but I may be wrong."

Spring's book on the British army in the AWI has a whole chapter devoted to the topic. It answers most of your questions:

link

Given the quality of powder, just how well could the two lines see each other after a few volleys anyway?

I think its well documented that any fall back/retreat could be risky. Simply by the fact that you are moving away from the enemy you are going to increase their morale at the expense of your own.

In game terms there should be some kind of test to see whether the "withdraw in good order" becomes a rout.

Ive seen the diagrams of "passage of lines" I doubt the forming of a column ever really happened as such. Probably more of a mob than a column.

One final point is that I feel withdrawing is something that is seldom done right in wargames which is a shame.

Spring's book on the British army in the AWI has a whole chapter devoted to the topic. It answers most of your questions:

As soon as the great recession ends and I am wealthy again, that book will be on the top of my list to buy.

"One final point is that I feel withdrawing is something that is seldom done right in wargames which is a shame."

How do you think it should be done in wargames, then?

Hi

Der Alte, I didn't say Patriot wasn't hollywood. I was observing that we forget what it looks like to take a volley.

THAT was the point.

Horror movies bore me, the scene where the camera faces the volley is scary. THAT ALONE. Which is my point to illustrate the point about how that affects reaction and movement.

On a gaming table, we too often forget people. Oh, its' just a stand why can't I just jump on them if they pull pack?

Rocky

To fall back:

"To the right about, face."

"Quick, March."

Or, just run away and try to reform with your officers.

To charge, if bayonets are fixed:

"Prepare to charge with, bayonet." Men move to the recover position.

"Charge with, bayonet." Men drop bayonets waist level.

"To the front, march."

To speed up:

"Quick, march."

To run:

"March, march!"

Powder smoke would be a function of the number of volley, humidity, and wind.

Passage of lines could be used, but both would have to be in open files to let each other pass thru.

Combat is no time to form a column. You may display from column into line, but hardly the reverse under fire. Unless you want to get creamed.

To charge, if bayonets are fixed:

During the AWI time frame, when were bayonets fixed on the muskets? Only when attempting a charge or immediately when battle was imminent? Did a fixed bayonet interfere with loading and firing a musket?

It seems the probability of hurting friendlies and self injury as well as possible interference with loading/firing the musket might keep bayonet use restricted to charges only.

The british Fixed bayonets at the start, as it was a very effective weapon against militia as they didn't have them.

It made it slighlty harder to reload, as you could stab your hand, but it would take some time to fix bayonets, time that could make your men wavore.

"The british Fixed bayonets at the start…It made it slightly harder to reload, as you could stab your hand"

Given that standard British tactical practice during the AMI appears to have been to fire *one* volley and then charge, I suppose the 'hand stab' issue was not a biggie.