"What no Corporals??" Topic

Just finished reading an account of the Vietnam fighting around Dak To and noticed there aren't any Corporals in the American Army??? Sorry to show my ignorance of American stuff (I am British) but when did they stop having that as a rank???

They still had Corporals when I was in between '95-'98 in the US Army. We didn't have many, but we had a few in my Armored Cavalry Squadron. I know when I was in our Sgt Major felt Corporal was an infantry rank and would not promote soldiers to Corporal so the only ones were from prior units. It's possible the unit(s) you were reading about did not have them.

Ed G.

They haven't…
The US Army has two ranks of E4: Corporal and Specialist.

Until 1 October 1985, they Army also had two ranks for
E5-E7
So technically you have Specialist 4th, (also known as Spec.4), Spec.5, Spec.6 and Spec.7) as well as Corporal, Sgt, SSG, and SFC.

This was done away with on 1 Oct 1985 and All Specialist 5, 6, and 7 ranks were then allowed to wear the Hard Stripe of the E series pay grade…Thus a Spec.5 became a Sergeant(E5)., etc..

Nowadays, they still have Specialist and Corporal (E4) though. Usually people who get Corporal in the Army nowadays are those being slotted and on their way up to E5 on the promotion scale.

It's the same pay grade as Specialist I think (E-4) and doesn't seem to get used much; sections are lead by sergeants or even staff sergeants I think, rather than the British practice of corporal section leaders and just a platoon sergeant.

(The difference probably ties in with the fact that the US has one more enlisted pay grade than Britain – a British sergeant equates more with the US staff sergeant, with no equivalent to the plain US sergeant, and corporals tending to have more responsibility.)

As noted, corporal is pretty much an infantry rank – just about everyone else gets spec-4. I think it was an outgrowth of the Tech Sgt of WWII. I'm not sure when they fully introduced spec ranks, but I know they had them in the early to mid '60s at least. When I went in in '83, I remember some spec-5s and -6s in our unit, but they shortly either mustered out or converted to traditional sgt ranks.

I do know that bottom-grade US Sergeants are not normally entitled to accommodation in the Sergeant's Mess when detached to British units – they are classed as equivalent to a British Corporal.

Yep, very few Corporals in the US Army when I was in '79-'90. I was an Infantry officer, and as said already, E4 = Spec.4 or Corporal. I lead an Infantry Plt and later a Mech Co. and I can only remember maybe 1 or 2(?). Spec.4 is an E4 but not in a Leadership position. A Spec.4 in Infantry units is an "Infantry Specialist", that's his MOS (Military Occupation Speciality)… Since a Fire Team (5 men) is lead by an E5/SGT. And is the lowest level of Organizational Maneuver unit in the US Army Infantry. 2 Fire Tms + 1 Squad Ldr(E6/Staff SGT = a Squad Ldr). A Squad = 11 men. With current military organizations a Corporal is not really needed. E4 is also a Pay Grade, which determines a Troop's pay check. Soldiers who have been on active duty long enough but has not met all the requirements to make E5, obtain the rank of Spec.4. But in reality, I had Spec.4s leading Fire Tms and E5 Squad Ldrs … You work with what you have. Even as a Company Cdr, I had an E7 as 1SG instead of an E8 …

Sundance and Legion 4 have hit the prime points. Corporal is an NCO rank and used for leadership/command positions. Specialist is equivalent experience/pay but for functional positions such as MG gunner, driver, etc. Corporals were not only infantry. I usually found them in artillery, though my 4.2 mortar squads did speify Corporal for them.
Murph, I am aging but I remember the change from Specialist earlier than '85. Often senior bandsmen qualified for Spec 6 or 7 but with the change, we had many a SFC "tooter", even a SGM on the trombone.

On a similar vein; the RAF has just (re)introduced the rank of Lance Corporal for the RAF Regiment only (who also had the rank during WW2). The reason for this is that Section 2ICs in the RAF Regiment are selected Senior Aircraftsmen (SACs), whereas the Army uses L/Cpl in that role and looks upon SACs as Privates. This causes problems when RAF Regt and Army are working together on ops.

templar72 wrote:

I know when I was in our Sgt Major felt Corporal was an infantry rank

An interesting contrast with the traditions of the Household Cavalry in the UK, where the word "sergeant" is not used because it is considered to be cognate with "servant". Instead, three-stripers are given the appointment "Corporal of Horse", and a WO2 or WO1 might be a Squadron Corporal-Major or Regimental Corporal-Major.

All the best,

John.

A friend of mine was a Medic in the Army National Guard, and as a combat medic was a Spec-4. Another friend was a more senior medic in the regular army and ranked as a sergeant.

Then there's the US Marine way:

E1: Private
E2: Private First Class
E3: Lance Corporal
E4: Corporal (In charge of a fireteam, IIRC, and a fireteam pretty much has one of each E1-E4)
E5: Sergeant (In charge of a Squad)
E6: Staff Sergeant (Platoon NCO)
E7: Gunnery Sergeant

E8: Master Sergeant or First Sergeant, depending on whether the Marine is a technical specialist or a Senior Enlisted Advisor, respectively.

E9: Master Gunnery Sergeant or Sergeant Major, again depending on whether the Marine is a technical specialist or a Senior Enlisted Advisor, respectively.

The Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps is not a pay-grade, it's a job billet.

Sooo…Would it be because the troops involved in the battle were paras and so were specialists rather than corporals??

Not really … You have Spec.4 rank in all branches of the Army. In the US Army being Parachute Qualified is an Additional Skill Identifier.

Murph, I am aging but I remember the change from Specialist earlier than '85. Often senior bandsmen qualified for Spec 6 or 7 but with the change, we had many a SFC "tooter", even a SGM on the trombone.

Not sure, but I've still got a copy of the official orders with my name on it, transferring all SP5's in USAREUR to SGT, and (upper ranks to their equivalent hard stripe), and eliminiating the Soft Stripes dated 1 Oct 1985…I was one of the last two SP5's in my brigade…

Blimey, they *really* didn't want to promote you then…? ;-)

Are there Banana Sergeants in Bongolesia?

"Not really … You have Spec.4 rank in all branches of the Army"

so what you are saying is that Specialists were the equivalent of corporals while not actually being called corporals and having 2 stripes and being an NCO??

Specialists are not in leadership positions … so yes you are basically correct … They are not NCOs.

Ah there are no Spec 4 ranks anymore in the Army only specialist with a "pay grade" of E4. There are plenty of corporals here at Ft. Bragg but most are in some sort of leadership psn. Spec 4 was done away with when the other ranks Spec 5 etc were converted over. They still wear the same rank pins but the term in different.
VR
James Mattes

Well that I didn't know … but I got out in '90 …