"modelling dismounted cavalry" Topic

I am specifically thinking SYW but I know certain cavalry fought both mounted and dismounted in other conflicts.
How do you model them?
Only on foot with standing horses? Only on horseback ready for the charge? Or do you have both foot and mounted replacement figures??

For the Civil War, I depict my cavalry regiments both mounted and dismounted, along with one horseholder stand per regiment. As the war prolonged, the use of dismounted cavalry became quite prevalent. Not sure about its frequency in the SYW however.

In the Napoleanic period, they generally only fought dismounted if there was a shortage of horses, or in skirmish actions.

In field battles all the cavalry were pretty much used mounted.

I have ACW figures both foot and mounted. I have not progressed to having horse holders, yet, but I intend to.

I have ACW figures both foot and mounted. I have not progressed to having horse holders, yet, but I intend to.

Back in the day, we had both mounted and dismounted minis, and, when the unit dismounted, we simply left a stand of mounted figures on the board to mark where the line of horse holders was.

respects,

28mm ECW/TYW I have horse holders – Foundry and TAG. I have some for my 20mm plastic ACW, converted plastic. Nothing for my Napoleonics although I have a unit of 15mm dismounted French Dragoons,

Tally Ho!

Eureka has Saxon hussars in mirliton that are dismounted and they also have the horse holders and saddled horse (without a rider), which is what our group is planning on using for our kleine krieg games.

As FreddBloggs says, they really didn't fight dismounted during the SYW, although we can surmise that they might have done so in small skirmish actions.

I seem to recall that von Seydlitz dismounted some of his dragoons at Gotha in order to trick the French into thinking that they were going to be attacked by infantry. I think that there are also some accounts of Prussian hussars dismounted and storming the village of Borne (to drive out the Croats) prior to the battle of Leuthen.

To answer your specific question about how to model them, our group will eventually have both mounted and dismounted hussars and light dragoons in our forces. The units generally move around the table mounted and fight that way; however, we also have the dismounted figures available so that a player can choose to dismount his light cavalry and fight on foot. There will be one horse holder stand per cavalry regiment. I have thought of having one horseholder stand per squadron, but that means more figures to paint, so it may take awhile to get there, but those are our plans, at any rate.

Foundry has mounted and dismounted hussars and von Kliest Horse Grenadiers (mounted and dismounted) and I think that they also have dismounts for the heavier dragoons and cuirassiers in the Prussian army (at least).

For ACW I do as others have said, make both mounted and dismounted versions with horse holders.

For Napoleonics I would love to have some dismounted dragoons but they are rather scarcely made because cavalry fought mounted 90% of the time or more.

Cheers,

The Bandit

I always make both mounted and dismounted and swap them.

I do late 19thC, singly based, and use both mounted & dismounted cavalry. For the latter, I have a couple of stands with three riderless horses, which I place next to a single mounted figure from the unit that just dismounted. I use the same horses for dragoons, light horse, & horse artillery.

Cavalry did not really fight dismounted in the SYW, certainly not in a field battle.

IIRC there were instances during the War of the Spanish Succession that dragoons were used as mounted infantry on occasions.

There are a few wargame scenarios in the SYW where dismounted cavalry MIGHT be useful, such as capturing a key village or large farm complex before the enemy could reach it first! Then to defend it untill support arrived they would need to dismount. Hussars ,Pandours, Croats, and F Korps would be likely candidates for this mission! The supports should arrive soon, however, for these guys would not hold up well against a determined attacks by grenadiers and such. I guess for this and similar actions, both Mounted and dismounted versions would be needed if cost and time is not too negative!

perry bringing out plastic dragoons including figures on foot!

cant wait

For the 7YW, we bought Freikorps 15mm figures in the 1970's – very fragile, made of type metal that shattered when dropped. They made French dragoons in forage caps. We used 16 figures to represent a regiment of 4 squadrons, mounted: Officer, drummer, guidon bearer and 13 troopers. We used 15 figures on foot – converting the Volontaires de Clermont Price foot figures by epoxy to wearing the forage cap, five stands of 3 figures. We could send a dragoon regiment ahead to hold an enclosed farm complex as a ford or bridge, dismount and fight to delay the enemy. We used 18 figures for a French infantry battalion, representing one grenadier, 16 fusilier companies, and a converged chasseur company on the left flank.

Rigo Series AR, plate 4 of the Orleans Dragoons, notes that in July, 1757, "quatre brigades d'intanterie et les quatre compagnies de Dragons a pied de notre beau regiment, attaquent le village d'Hastembeck maintenant in flammes." It would suggest that the four squadrons dismounted would form four infantry companies.

I seem to recall another source indicating that dismounted dragoons were used to attack fixed positions – dismounted – and were classified as Grenadiers. Also, in the 7YW French Grenadiers were more a rudimentary fast moving light infantry, but used in the attack.

Finally, I have a book from 1912 written by a Canadian officer on the history of cavalry, that talks about the French d'Apchon (#13) dragoons covering the routed French army after Rossbach. They dismounted, held a farm complex at a ford while the troops escaped. Prussian dragoons arrived, then dismounted to form an attack against the complex. The French waited until the Prussians advanced away from their horses, then mounted, an crossed the ford. This was difficult, for only one man in 10 was left to secure the horses, and they could not bring them forward to the dismounted dragoons. The defenders had to run to their mounts to escape.

GdeP

Seven Years War, all mounted

OK – I do have a single dismounted unit of Prussian dragoons, but that is among ten mounted units

ACW, though, mounted and dismounted – which is a pain in the neck cause you gots to paint them twice

Right now I am painting up Mexican Federales and Villista cavalry for a Mexican Civil War game (talk about famous duff armies) – again, mounted and dismounted, as by this time cavalry were really delivery vehicles for mounted infantry

I'll probably put a horse-holder stand together for each Dragoon unit I field (I have this tendency towards Grand Tactical games in this era), consisting of one guy on foot and three or four horses per base.

As Garde de Paris noted, French 7YW dragoons are about the singular cavalry that is said to have engaged dismounted in larger general engagements. 1757 Hastenbeck is confirmed. Garde de Paris quotation should refer to the siezure of Thundern village the day before that battle, and sounds VERY authentic to me. The French Apchon dragoons are said to have dismounted prior to the general advance of Soubise's army at 1758 Lutterberg. Same year in Westphalia, general Chevreuse's reserve of dragoons (several regiments all combined in a single division) engaged in a large combat partly mounted and partly on foot.
Thats all that comes to my mind. All cavalry fighting dismounted shoud have done so, only, if it was part of an avantgarde tasked to seize some key position prior to the arrival of the main forces. Most readily hussards or dragons. The capture of Borne at the day of Leuthen qualifies for this type of action, as DAF already noted. I recall reading on some Prussian hussards capturing Gotha in 1757. Not sure, maybe it was some other town nearby. In any case, it was walled and the gates were closed. The assault was a success nevertheless because the hussards (no guns) managed to persuade a native tambour of the local militia to fetch his drum and approach the gate beating the grenadiers march. Now, the defenders feared grenadiers along with guns were about to assault and surrendered within a minute. The hussards alone were quite unable to make an impression before. A nice story, I believe.

Eureka's SYW mounted and dismounted Saxon hussars may be seen here – though painted as French.

link

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The October 14th posting here does a show and tell.
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Respectfully,
Bill

Eureka also have the Saxon dragoons in dismounted skirmish poses, with a horseholder still in the saddle (which seems more appropriate somehow)

Given the choice, I think dragoons (who usually carried muskets and underwent regular foot drill) would have performed far better in this role than hussars with their little carbines. That's not disputing that the latter rose to the occasion when compelled by circumstances to attack on their own.

<Q>For the 7YW, we bought Freikorps 15mm figures in the 1970's – very fragile, made of type metal that shattered when dropped.

Ah, that metal hasn't been used for many years. Same figures, returned to same high quality, now in metal that doesn't shatter!!! link

Geoff
quickreactionforce.co.uk

For ACW, my cavalry bases are 2 dismounted figures with a horseholder and horse behind. Works for me – and I don't have to paint up two units!

Dear Forum,

Can someone provide a list of what varieties of 15mm Napoleonic dismounted cavalry is available….the only types of 15mm dismounted Napoleonic cavalrymen I recall being available were the Minifigs' 15mm Dismounted Dragoons.

Would like very much to get a wider variety of dismounted 15mm cavalry, such as French hussars, cuirassiers, and even Allied dismounted cavalrymen…..they would all fit in nicely with my 15mm scale Napoleonic encampment dioramas!

Look forward to your responses!

Wayne

Some additional observations (and thanks for several accounts of SYW actions involving dismounted cavalry): in order to get a variety of figures, wayneempire, I think you'll have to get out the modelling blade for some conversions, as I've done with some 15mm metal figures, mainly Minifigs. For instance, the French Line Horse Artillery officer (with pelisse and sabretache) is a fine, if very static in aspect, dismounted Hussar; it's even possible to ease his right arm away from the body, slightly, and add a carbine before pressing the arm back into position (you have to cut very carefully and slowly to separate the arm partially from the torso, hip and thigh). The carbines came from Esci plastic figures, suitably pared down of course, though at this scale I'm sure many alternatives could be found. Given that most Hussars in the field did not have sabretaches and wore EITHER dolman or buttoned pelisse only, the rest of the six-figure Minifigs French Horse Artillery set can be pressed into service for dismounted Hussars as well as dismounted Chasseurs. With a bit of imagination and patience, it's possible to improvise figures firing a pistol or even holding a trumpet, after which horse-holders are simple. And don't overlook the Garde Horse Artillery, their kolpaks allowing some figures to represent fashionable officers; further, many men must have lost their hats, so carve away and have a few bareheaded figures. I've also used Artillery figures from other nations (Russia provides figures which are fine for dismounted cavalry; in fact, among my conversions I've got the two regiments of Dragoons which fought on foot at Borodino, using the early Russian horse Artillery in helmets). With regard to the "empty horses", I thought a satisfying idea was to paint about two dozen pairs of horses identical in colour and distribution of markings, the one set in motion, the corresponding set stationary; the Minifigs French Hussar/Chasseur/Lancer horse (?Series Two) being chosen because it's possible to cut the nearside foreleg away from the base , cut a notch into the horse's chest and gently ease the leg forward so that the horse is standing still rathe than trotting. All right, two of these attempts are now "Dead Horse" casualty markers, but the rest worked fine.

I think I've gone on too long here! If I ever get round to getting a camera capable of posting pictures, I'll look out some of the more complicated vignettes I made over the years, including a dismounted Chasseur struggling to control a couple of panicked horses while a third flounders, wounded, at his feet. If I ever get round to painting them all, one of these days an opponent is going to get a shock when a squadron gallops up to a village and, dismounting (apart from the horse-holders), secures it in the manner described earlier. Of course, a lot of dismounted cavalry would be very appropriate for a "Retreat from Moscow" skirmish scenario.

PS: Russian Jaegers, without knapsacks, are also a good starting-point for dismounted Chasseurs a cheval.

For those wondering how many horse holders would be needed. In WW1 when cavalry dismounted to fight on foot, they needed 25% of the men to tend the horses.
So a 12 figure unit of Dragoons would presumably only get 9 figures able to skirmish on foot as the other 3 would be holding horses.
Horses startled by the sounds of battle would be very hard to handle, which would explain why each man could presumably only look after his own and three others.

Dismounted cavalry are not a very cost effective infantry force because of the issue of horseholders.
Add in the expense of cavalry in general, it is no wonder they were not used more in conflicts ranging from the SYW to the ACW.

<<Horses startled by the sounds of battle would be very hard to handle, which would explain why each man could presumably only look after his own and three others.>>

I would think this would only apply to remounts – most horse in this period practised firing from the saddle, as well as dismounted, so gunfire would not be that unusual an experience for the horses.

<<Dismounted cavalry are not a very cost effective infantry force because of the issue of horseholders.>>

But surely the extra mobility in the field makes up for this? The opportunity to seize a post and fortify it before the enemy infantry arrives can often overcome the issue of numbers. Such units can also carry more ammunition, which became more of an issue as rates of fire increased.

<<Add in the expense of cavalry in general, it is no wonder they were not used more in conflicts ranging from the SYW to the ACW.>>

Cavalry who were expected to fight dismounted, as well as mounted, tended to be looked down upon by other units as they were often paid less, and given lower quality horses and equipment. Operationally, they frequently paid the price for ending up being inadequately trained in both disciplines. The Prussian dragoons of the 1740s are a fine example of this: after seeing them perform badly at the start of the WAS, Frederick focussed on training them as battle cavalry to back up his cuirassiers, leaving the hussars (who were considered little better than the freikorps) to handle dismounted actions.

In other armies, this kind of duty was increasingly left to legionary corps, and only the French seemed to have taken the trouble to seriously develop the dragoon arm of their army during the period 1650-1800 (I'm talking about mounted dragoons here, not the temporary "Foot Dragoon" formations of 1805-06 – although these, too, suffered from lack of proper training and consequent poor morale). The British never entirely got to grips with this kind of thing – unfortunately, their anti-smuggling work, which was perfect training in some respects, was conducted at too low a command level to be useful in war.