"Fall In: Is it just me?" Topic

I got back from Fall-in late last night. I saw some friends, did a little shopping, played some games. This was my first Fall-In as a gamer and not a vendor, so it was interesting to see the show from a different perspective.

I have to say I was underwhelmed. Perhaps it was on off year.

Let's Go Skeet Shooting The vendor hall felt really empty – the aisles were a mile wide and there was a huge empty space. Plus it never felt crowded. Maybe I was gaming when it was busy. It was nice for me as I never had to fight around a crowd and could browse very slowly and chat with my vendor pals. I saw some very nice new stuff. The VSF at the Iron Wind booth was awesome. Splintered Light had some great new 15mm Woodland Creatures.

There's A Flea in My Soup! The flea market was really just another vendor hall. The same dealers at the same tables with the same stuff at every session. Why not just sell those as vendor tables and be done with it? Make the "flea market" tables free on Sunday morning only. That said, I did pick up a huge, nicely painted Vietnam collection in 15mm for a song. 200+ figures, 8 vehicles and 6 die-cast Hueys plus a bunch of Peter Pig scenic packs (unpainted). I resold the Hueys so added the infantry and vehicles to my collection for a mere $75!

An ocean of felt… There were some very good looking games. The Saipan put on by the Williamsburg Battle Barn was gorgeous. There were some very, very nice horse-and-musket games with stunning tables. But it felt like for every eye-popping table there were a dozen tables played with just felt cut outs and maybe a few trees. I didn't play in them so no harm done, but I'd rather go to a one day show and see 20 amazing tables (Legends in the Fall anyone?) than drive all day to see an ocean of felt.

Where's my cheese? The hotel is a real rat's maze which is good and bad. On the good size it means more smaller rooms which keeps background noise down. The main rooms were really, really loud, but the smaller rooms were quite nice to game in. But having to hike to the All Star for a game can make you late if you are booked back-to-back.

Toys For Tots: This was a really nice idea that was put off in a severe back water – I mentioned bidding on a FoW army and a 40k squad and most people had no idea what i was talking about (I won the bods on both!). Surely they could have put this in the vendor hall where someone might have actually seen it?

Welcome to Jeb's pile o'crap yard sale! Really, it would be nice if someone could try to make the welcome table in the vendor hall look well, not such an eye sore. as a vendor i usually come in the back door and I was really struck how crappy this looked. Covered with food wrappers, and a big pile of crap in back, with a few military maps hung up half-dash. I can't imagine the impression it made on a young man and his family at their first convention ever (I was helping him find his way around the hall to get into gaming on the cheap).

Quagmire! I signed up for a game and went looking for it. When I arrived in the area I didn't see the table so had to ask. The GM I asked said "That's my game – great! Do you want to play side A or side B?" I looked at the table. It was God-awful. Honestly I wanted to leave and play something else but I felt trapped. So I stuck it out. But the rules were half grant tactical, half skirmish, and a complete mess. What is the etiquette for backing out on a game like this without being a dick?

Good doggy! There is a very fine line between shredded meat sandwiches and Purina. But I drove into town for my meals and survived the weekend. Even picked up some Kilwin's fudge for my girls back home, and a good Gettysburg Atlas.

Overall, I was just underwhelmed.

Maybe I just expect too much?

[The vendor hall felt really empty]

It always feels that way to me at Fall In. On one hand, I love the wider space to move around in. But on the other hand, there are fewer dealers and they bring less stock. I think I've only ever once bought figures at Fall In simply because nobody brings much that I want, and not in any significant quantities.

But it's still inspiring to walk around and look for new stuff.

[The flea market was really just another vendor hall.]

But that's true of Cold Wars and H-Con, too. There are a couple of guys who are obviously businesses, who somehow always get flea market seats instead, year after year. One guy who shall remain nameless, has told me that his "wife made me clean out the attic" about 20 times now. Either he has the world's biggest attic, or he's just a very bad liar.

[The hotel is a real rat's maze ]

Agreed, but again, it's no worse than the Host. Certainly less maze-like and dank, IMO.

I think that the bottom line for me is usually the social and the shopping aspect. It's a fun gaming getaway.

For what its worth:
MilleniumCon in Austin had about 1/3 the Dealers they had two years ago:
Attendance was up, the games were great, the Garage sale was Fantastic;
No Dealers. (Economy + Business Model shifting to OnLine sales, I'm guessing)

Still: I had a great Time shmoozing with Ed Texairea
(Two Hour Wargames), and had a great time playing my tournaments:
I also ran into quite a few folks I only see on the "Con Circuit", and , Really:
That's why I go to Cons. Dealers Room is a bonus, only-

But the rules were half grant tactical, half skirmish, and a complete mess. What is the etiquette for backing out on a game like this without being a dick?

I usually go with either:
"Listen; my Blood Sugar is crashing, and my Insulin is in the Car" or
"My Gout is flaring up, and I need to get some Ibuprofen and get off my Feet"
Works a Charm

{edit}
Solidly agree with Dave Gamer's comments {Below}

Maybe I just expect too much?

Probably.

I like the Eisenhower ok. I do agree that it is not for everyone.

I'd rather play a good game on a bad table than a bad game on a diorama. For me it is all about the game.

The "food"? Well, at either the Lancaster Host or the Eisenhower, you are going to get marginal food at best. Going out certainly is an option. For me, that cuts into my valuable game time. I prefer to wolf down a hoof-and-snout-dog and keep gaming/shopping. I'm not there to eat!

In all, those were my impressions from what I remember from a few years back.

John

For me, American conventions are about PLAYING games, not attracting new people to the hobby. Many of us don't have any opponents where we live. Also, when I have lived in an area with opponents, with the plethora of rules around, no one in your group may want to play the same ruleset as you do. So by going to a large convention I can find like-minded people who are willing to play the same type of game I want to play.

So I don't mind if the game is run on a bare piece of felt if it's a ruleset I've been dying to play.

Some interesting comments. It is always good to look at things from a different perspective.

First, I think you CAN NOT back out of a game. To put it in perspective, as a dealer how would you like it if someone special ordered something and then said "eh I don't want it now". GM's put in a lot of effort, admittedly some more than others, to bring a game, set it up, and run it. When you take a seat in that game you take a seat from someone else who might have played. It is true that some games are not as appealing or well run as others. I always stick it out, try to find some good from it and then stay away from that GM's games in the future.

I have long held the opinion that the Tournament games are absolutely hideous. They are felt chess matches with armies that never met each other. However, some people really live for that. I exercise my right by not playing in those tournaments. Then I go and let the GM's with a beautiful table know how much I appreciate their terrain.

As for the flea market, we all know who the dealers are and who the real marketers are yet the powers who be seem to turn a blind eye. Once again we are going to let a couple or rule breakers ruin something good for everyone. One idea I had is to create a bring and buy. Then let the people bring their stuff to be sold by the con. That will definitely send the dealers back where they belong.

As long as we play in hotels then weird room assignments and mazes are what we will get. I spend a lot of time traveling in my job and going to professional conventions. You sleep in hotels and go to conventions in convention centers and there is a world of difference between the two. As for food, unless you stay in the type of hotel that most gamers would be unwilling to spend the money on you are going to get hit or miss with the food. Like you I find a quick drive into town yeilds better food for less money.

Cheers

As one of the Battle Barn guys thanks for the kind words about our Sipain game. As a club we try very hard to put on not only a fun game but a great looking table!

Many of our club members have made the same comment in the last year or two about the game/terrain tables not being up to par? DBA I can understand but anything bigger then an effort should be made to put out your best even in a torunmanet game? Look at what the I-95 guys do for thier FoW tournament tables…Fantatsic!

It just takes a little effort. Much or our terrain is home made.

SFC Retired

Regarding the "Ocean of Felt"

I like how HMGS-East games are a mix of great looking terrain games and also "felt" games. Both can be great to play on. I've learned it's the GM, game system and players that really make the difference when at the table edge.

Also, an "all great looking sculpted terrain convention" might put off the odd "new person" whereas felt means the game is doable. So seeing a mix as there was at Fall-In! shows people there are a lot of options with terrain. It's a hobby within a hobby.

Regarding the Flea Market:
As long as I can get a table to sell off my unwanted stuff, I'm actually OK with "vendors" being in the FM. It helps me sell more of MY stuff. But I'm not a regular. Just a dude selling off what I don't want anymore at really cheap prices.

"What is the etiquette for backing out on a game like this without being a dick?"

As Volstagg said, or, "Aw, carp! I left my nitro tablets in the room. Owwww!"

Allen

First, I think you CAN NOT back out of a game. To put it in perspective, as a dealer how would you like it if someone special ordered something and then said "eh I don't want it now". GM's put in a lot of effort, admittedly some more than others, to bring a game, set it up, and run it. When you take a seat in that game you take a seat from someone else who might have played. It is true that some games are not as appealing or well run as others. I always stick it out, try to find some good from it and then stay away from that GM's games in the future.

This would be better as a separate topic, but I'd have to say I disagree. People go to conventions to have fun and I wouldn't want an unhappy person playing in one of my games or another GM's game for hours. I'd rather have them go find something they will enjoy. They paid to enjoy themselves and be entertained by the game I host, not to feel obligated to stay in a game they hate.

Just a general "meh" comment -- I go for games and shopping. Are you running a Felt table? No problem. Are you running a diorama table? No Problem.

My one quibble would be for that class of gamer who goes out of their way to say "They wouldn't of done that in real life."

RE: backing out of the game, particularly if you are the only one there: just tell the GM that you are not feeling well and that you wanted to stop by the table and let him know that you can not play in his game. Or say that you met up with some friends and changed your plans, but you wanted to let him know that you would not be able to play in his game. Or something like that.

I agree with Goldwyrm.

Also at least as it applies to me when I'm being a GM, If you entered one of my games but after looking at it or during the introduction you realize you don't want to play, I have no problem if you want to back out. At least I can resuffle who's doing what anyway. In fact I'd prefer it that someone speak-up sooner rather than later that they're not interested in playing. Last thing I want is someone who doesn't want to play to be playing in one of my games.

Or you could be honest about it. They won't learn from their "mistakes" if no one ever tells them. It's probably "bad form" but I have to laugh when people post pictures of a sub-par game (even by a newcomer to the hobby) and people seem to fall all over themselves heaping praise upon it. I just can't do that.

I've played my share of games on felt and minimal terrain, but I try to stay away from those at conventions, where I think people have a right to expect a little more effort, if not expense.

I have to wonder how someone can be intimidated by a good looking game if they are new to the hobby. If the GM has a game that looks good and is playable, why would that be off-putting? As a newby, that's the kind of game I would WANT to be part of! Wouldn't you?

The one thing that really gets me is people who pre-register for a game and then don't let the GM know that they don't want to take part. Regardless of your reason for dropping out, you should at least let the GM know that you won't be taking up a seat at the table that someone else may want.

I agree. Mark, you're too nice a guy. As a GM, I'd rather someone decline than me have to nurse along an unenthusiastic player.

I didn't get to go, sadly, but David said that Friday was a bit slow, but Saturday picked up very nicely.

I have noticed a plethora of really bad games over the last 2 years or so – it is one of the reasons I am playing more tournaments. And when I say bad I mean they are done with a scenario that is so boring and rules so simple that you know the result before you sit down or with an hour between turns.

I'm not sure what the issue is – maybe it is because it is hard to haul all of your stuff that people are putting on bad games with nothing on the table but a couple of years ago that wasn't a problem.

Thats what I like about TMP, different perspectives. John I think you sold me, but you added one key element…Tell the GM you aren't going to play the game and why. You should also think about your criticism first. Constructive criticism is one thing but saying "cause your game looks like crap!!" doesnt help anyone. I like your idea of explaining to them why the visual appeal has put you off and that is why you don't feel you would be able to play in the game. Then you have let them know that they are losing players as a result of how the game looks. I will definitely include constructive criticism in the next game.

Friday did seem much slower than past Fall Ins. My group couldn't get into our room until 3 ish and besides the dealers hall there didnt seem to be that much going on. We did get into a game but there were only a few. The dealers hall has always been roomier. It is actually one of the items that I really like about Fall In.

Cheers

I had a great time all around, even with the mess than Mattes tried to make of the con's games. Everything else was pretty darn good for me as well-- great games, excellent food (downtown), lots of Dealer Room shopping, and fantastic company. It was one of the best times I've had at a Fall In in years and that's saying something.

Sorry it was less than stellar for you, Mark!

What is the etiquette for backing out on a game like this without being a dick?

Maybe just say this isn't what I expected, apologize, and thank him, then leave.

As someone that puts on lots of games I'd rather see someone walk away instead of suffer through it.

Hi Mark,

What sort of new VSF stuff was at the Iron Wind booth?

The one game that I bowed out of was at a Historicon. Some of the guys from my local group and I were on one side versus the game master and his friends. They continually re-cycled troops against us (never ending hordes) and the rules were also terrible. Eventually, I looked down at my watch and said hey guys it's getting close to time for our dinner reservations, we should probably head out now to make it in time. And that's what we did.

For a small fee I can call you 5 minutes after you've arrived at the game and you can use it as an excuse to leave.

That's a great idea!

An ocean of felt…

This is always interesting to me. Some people prefer to play display games, some people prefer to play a good game despite the terrain.
I've seen an increasing number of complaints about con games focusing on the look of the game with gameplay leaving the players flat.

And Crispy.. We thank you for the Bids on the Auction.

Santa Moe.

Just to be clear: good looking games vs good playing games is NOT a choice you have to make. The two are not connected in any way.

As I mentioned in my blog, there are some very simple ways to make a game look nice… a quick drybrush of your felt roads with a lighter brown, a quick drybrush of your forest felt with a lighter green, and then a light scatter of flock, and voila! Blue felt for a river? No prob! Just take five minutes to glue some stones at a few points, then dab a little white paint around them to show where the water is disturbed.

I don't like this idea that it is an either/or with looks vs quality. It isn't. While a poor looking game can be of excellent quality, imagine how much better it would be if it also looked nice!:)

IMHO miniature wargaming is all about … the miniatures. While I love a beautiful table, often too much terrain ruins the game and hides the figures. The very best game is one in which the figures are well done, you can see them, and the terrain accents the figure, not the other way around.

Check out the article in Wargames Illustrated by Joe Moore. Joe ran an AWI game, Guilford CH. The article is about how to plan and organize a GM-ed game. Joe seems to have found the perfect balance between terrain and miniatures. Of course Joe is also responsible for the FoW tournament tables at the cons.

As for tournament gaming; It is unfair to catagorize all of them all as ugly felt games. The FoW tables are some of the very best tables at the conventions. Others, I agree, are pretty bad. Some games, such as WAB, focus on the miniatures and have little terrain on purpose. The WAB tournament at Historicon has 50+ players. All the terrain and table mats are supplied by the game host. A big order … and of necessity; simple. Hosting a tournament and hosting a participation game are totaly different monsters.

As for what to do if you sign up for a poor game. While I would stick it out … and hope for the best; all of our time is precious. As a GM, I would not be upset if someone wanted to pass up the chance to play. But once you start the game, you should stay to the end.

Mike B

We backed out of two games at local cons. One game was nothing but hardcore cursing and sexual innuendo. Of course, the game description said it was kid friendly! Another was just plain boring because it was a bunch of regular gaming buddies putting on a con game and arguing about every rule and inch. After several minuets, all we said was "I'm afraid we're going to have to get going. Is that all right?" What are they going to say to that? "No! You must play or die!"

Being polite and gracious is key.

It was a yawn as well. First off FALL In lost all 3 games that I was to run. They got in on time for the printed PEL but didn't make it into the printed PEL or aditional games either. I tried to get it taken care of byt the new miniatured coordinator was oveloaded with issuses so I gave up on running any. I played in 2 great games run by Ken over at All the Kings Men at his booth. The great thing about the Fall In dealers area is that any dealer that wants a demo booth pretty much can have one for free. I also watched his 6 player game Saturday night. great game. I played in a gosh awful 54mm WWII game that the GM didn't know how to run or umpire. We players had to stop him many times and clarify how the rules worked as he was in a fog. Nice guy and nice toys but foggy.

To me, the game has to look good, both in terms of figures and terrain. Of course, if it is no fun to play, that's no good.

So, good figures, good terrain, and a good game. You need all three.

I look at a lot more games than I play in. In fact, I rarely play more than one game at a convention. Sometimes I do not play in any. A bunch of good games to look at is one of the main draws of a convention. I can often learn something that helps me at home later.

I greatly enjoyed Fall In this year. Having said that, I think it had the poorest showing of good looking games at any of the three or four Fall Ins I have attended. I still enjoyed it though. There were some beautiful games, just not as many as in the past it seemed.

Seeing my freinds is a big plus. I enjoyed the dealer area and the flea market. Things could be better, but it was still a lot of fun.

Tom

People are often drawn to the great looking games, only to be noticed later on with that deer in the headlights look on their faces which can only be interpreted as, "This was a huge mistake…I should have played in that game over there where all the guys are yucking it up & having a blast".

True but that's the nature of a con – whether the game looks like a Smithsonian diorama or a sewing pattern with some troops on it, might find yourself in a sucky game. But I'd rather suffer at a nice looking table, given a choice.

The quality of games over the last decade has fallen significantly. Contrary to some of the posts, there is no such thing as too much terrain "hiding" the figures. On the other hand there is truth to the reality that a good looking game does not ensure a well designed scenario or playable rules set.

Several years ago a former President of East suggested a GM master class designation to reward GM's who consistently put on good looking, enjoyable games. The intent was to give that group first choice of times and venues to run their games. Unfortunately that has now devolved into the "if you throw together a game and preregister the game and are a member of East we'll waive the admission fee". Don't underestimate how that has affected the quality of games.

db

Ripping the flea market by a person who vends shows some misunderstanding of the situation. I probably flea market twice a year and yeah, I BUY that much stuff. And guess what that money often goes right back out to the dealers in purchases now and future purchases of more items to make an army. Dealers buy from me and sell stuff with a mark up to the attendees. There are a few pros it looks like, but I doubt they are a threat to the Fortune500. If I flea market I can also stay a day longer at a hotel and pay for some of the food I eat by selling my own stuff. I speculated once or twice on trying to make an actual profit on some items and it doesn't work that well. The market for some items was not up to par and I had to dump the items. And oh yeah, when you flea market HMGS gets $20.00 USD per table, per session. I think it's a win win. Last thing. If I paid a dollar for an item I might at best get $.50 USD back but I often further discount with a multiple item purchase. My $.50 USD on the dollar becomes less. If vendors were doing that they'd be out of business real quick.

Life is good. Wargaming is good. We have great minis to choose from ample cons to play them at, and good people to play with. Come on, people.

Quality games abound at the cons. I have watched magnificent pickup games as well as logistically impressive setups that took hours to assemble. I've seen guys laughing it up on plain felt fields and on diorama-quality terrain. I've joined them. I've run them.

There are plenty of good games for the gamer who is ready to enjoy himself. There are plenty of games, too, that will provide ammunition for the fellow who wants to complain. I'd argue they're the same games; it's just the interpretation that varies.

Me, I prefer good terrain. I don't like plain felt presentations, and don't play them, and don't complain about them. Play what you like. Let others be.

Jim

The best way out of a bad game, once your in, is Full Throttle Forward. You either get your command destroyed, and walk away saying you gave it a chance or you crush the enemy with daring attacks and carry the day.

Either way you mixed it up, which is what is all about.

Cheers, Xin

I have long held the opinion that the Tournament games are absolutely hideous. They are felt chess matches with armies that never met each other.

I may be biased but I have long held that the Tournament games contain the best painted miniatures in the entire convention. If you think they are all "felt chess matches" then you should really drop by more often.

Contrary to some of the posts, there is no such thing as too much terrain "hiding" the figures.

I'm afraid I have to disagree here too. The above was written in context to tournament games where the outcome is based on generalship and tactics, and not by who was most inhibited by the terrain. Many tournaments are about ancient armies. A quick look at any ancient historical battle will show they mostly took place in featureless, even ground, not a place that some future war gamer would find aesthetically pleasing.

Ralph

Here's my big ol' ripsnorting FALL IN! After Action Report, which I do for every show. link

Have fun!

Walt

Another hobby of mine is divided into camps, very similar to historical vs other games, or fancy scenery vs simple. I personally like great minis, AND great tables but to each his own. This post is one I often go back to for perspective, thanks Tom, I don't know you but your POV is spot on…

"I like ice cream. It's "the new pie". I'll eat it in just about any surroundings and long as I like the people serving it and I like the environment I'm eating it in. Whether at The Left Bank downtown, or in the McD's drivethough. I won't like ice cream at The Left Bank if the environment sux, even though the atmosphere is (potentially) much nicer than at McD's and the ice cream is superb and available served in a cookie cornucopia with a pear demiglaze, rasperry reduction and a side of gingerbread…and McD's is literally plain vanilla soft serve in a bitty cone. Sometimes the time and expense of going to The Left Bank is really worth it; sometimes….not. People will eat their ice cream where they can enjoy it the most. "

Generally I found Fall-In to be a bit quite, but I think that may have more to do with the economy than anything. Even a simple day trip can run $40-$50. We'll know more once the numbers come.

Otherwise I found it a fun day (I made a day trip on Saturday). A chance to try some rules I had no played. Talk some clean trash, catch up with friends, and look for some Christmas gift ideas for my wife (for her to give to me).

In the end, the cons are what you make of them. Given most trade shows charge relatively big $$$, the HMGS cons are not bad for what you get.

Jim