"Battle of the Bogs - Irregular Wars battle report" Topic

It's been very quiet on the Battle Reports board so I though I would cross-post a report with piccis that I have just left at the GWP.
link

Nice piccies! What ruleset did you use, and what scale (and manufacturer) are the figures?

Great photos and lovely minis.

Looks like the minis are a mix of Essex and Grumpy/Eureka. Rules are Irregular Wars? Really dinky little set. Easy to learn and fun to play.

Cheers
Mark

"Nice piccies! What ruleset did you use, and what scale (and manufacturer) are the figures?"

Spot on Mark – mostly Grumpy figs for the English, Essex for the Irish. 15mm scale. Irregular Wars for the rules.

Cheers!

Where does one find out more about those rules? By the way, very nice figures and AAR. Thanks!

"Where does one find out more about those rules? By the way, very nice figures and AAR. Thanks!"

No worries and thank you!

Rules may be found here in pdf format: link

Thanks for the good feedback!

A second AAR is now listed on the same forum page: link

Excellent stuff HH. I will try the rules out too.

I like Irregular Wars – A mix of Spanish Fury 'Actions' and File Leader = immensely playable.

I'm playing local battles of the reformation and petty feuds in North East Scotland. Still tinkering with the factors as I learn the rules.

Great thing too, it's Renissance gaming on half a groat!

Cheers
Mark

I've had a good read of Irregular Wars now and it looks good.

I have a couple of questions on the army generating section. You get three throws to generate your non compulsory companies. Some type of companies are prefixed by D2 does that mean no matter how high you roll you cannot have more than two of these companies or what? Thanks.

Irregular Wars recruitment:

D2 = treat a roll of 1-3 as a one, 4-6 as a two.
D3 = treat a roll of 1-2 as one, 3-4 and two, 5-6 as three.

Each battle (army) must take the listed compulsory companies. Depending on your die rolls, you may also have between 1 and three optional companies. The amount of each type of company is also determined by a dice roll to reflect availability and/or enthusiasm of volunteer and militia troop types.

I'll give you an example of recruitment for a game between Colonial Spanish and Mesoamericans.

The Spanish player much take the following compulsory company types:
d2 Conquistadors and 2 targeteers. He rolls a d2 for the conquistadors, (in reality a six sided dice treating any roll of 1-3 as a one and 4-6 as a two) and scores 1. That means that only one company of conquistadors will be available for this battle. He gets 2 companies of targeteers as standard.

The Spanish player now roles a d3 (a six sided dice treating 1-2 and one, 3-4 as two and 5-6 as three) to find out how many optional company types he may recruit. He rolls a 5 which means he may make three choices from the list of optional company types.

His first choice is for war-dogs. He may only have a single company of war-dogs and so does not have to roll.

Next he chooses crossbowmen. He may have d2 crossbowmen – on the die roll he scores 3 on the dice and so only one company of crossbowmen is available.

For his third choice he picks the d3 militia shot option. He roles his dice and gets a result of 4. That means he manages to recruit two companies of militia shot.

The Spanish battle for this engagement therefore composes:
1x Conquistadors
2x Targeteers
1x War-dogs
1x Crossbowmen
2x Militia Shot
A total of 7 companies.

The Mesoamerican player must take d4 (four-sided dice) Suited warriors and d6 (standard six-sided dice) dart throwers. He rolls a 4 on the d4 dice and so may use the full compliment of four companies of suited warriors. On the d6, he only manages a 3 which means he gets three companies of dart throwers.

Next the Mesoamerican player roles a d3 to find out how many optional companies are available. He roles a low 1 and so may only chose a single option. He picks to recruit d6 normal warriors and roles a high 5. He therefore gets five companies of warriors.

The Mesoamerican battle for this game therefore comprises:
4x Suited warriors
3x Dart throwers
5x Warriors
A total of 12 companies.

LOL! I don't know if that explained anything or just made it more complicated……. but hopefully you can see that the idea is that depending on die rolls, a players force size fluctuates and there is not much you can do about it. To show the extremes, the Mesoamerican player could have had as many as 22 companies, or as few as 3.

We played a game a little while ago which saw about 12 companies in a Royal English army walloped by half their number of Antrim Scots because the Scots player made better use of the terrain.

Do let me know if this helped at all.

Harry yes it does so thank you for that. As a consequence of Irregularwars I rebased my Aztecs last night.After years of languishing in a tool box they will see action again!

Um is a four sided dice an 'average' dice?

Also just some thoughts that might be of use on the rules factors and the lists. Of course you might already have considered these.

Montjoy reckoned the Irish were better shots than the English.

Redshanks were thought to be better shock troops than Kern.

There is a case for making the initial charge of all Aztec warriors stronger.

If you want to develop an Inca list there are loads of instances of the Spanish being 'pinned' by sling fire.

Your Colonial Spanish should swap pike for targeteers in mesoamerica. Indian allies should increase both warriors and bows to represent Tarascans.

I think you have come up with something good. BTW for the flavour of mesoamerican warfare you cannot beat Bernal Diaz' The Conquest of New Spain. He was there!

Your Antrim Scots game sounds like a real incident.

Glad to hear your Aztecs are making a come back.

As a result of discussions here, at GWP and over games, the armies were revised a little. The latest version is 1.2.2, I have no immediate plans to make too any more changes unless pressed. If you have an earlier version, the rules are downloadable here: link

"Um is a four sided dice an 'average' dice?"

A four sided dice is a four sided dice – shaped like a triangular pyramid. If you can't get hold of one, use a d6 and re-roll and 5s and 6s.

"Montjoy reckoned the Irish were better shots than the English."

The Irish seem to have gotten their hands on a lot of guns, the list provides them with 'shot' as the standard type, and also 'musketeers' to reflect the sniping with bothered the English so much.

"Redshanks were thought to be better shock troops than Kern."

Redshanks have a better melee factor than kern and higher resolve. They move slower but suffer no penalties from rough terrain and have a bow attack. Historicallyy there seem to have been shot troops among the redshanks, but bows predominanted as the missile weapon of choice.

"There is a case for making the initial charge of all Aztec warriors stronger."

Perhaps. They already have a higher than average melee factor (3 being average). The problem with making them to vicious is that chances are they will outnumber the Spanish on the table as they did historically, but they should not have an overwhelming advantage…

"If you want to develop an Inca list there are loads of instances of the Spanish being 'pinned' by sling fire."

The Mesoamerican list vaguely covers the Incans aswell – in a very broad stretching of the prefix 'meso'. That list includes slingers as an option.

"Your Colonial Spanish should swap pike for targeteers in mesoamerica."

The colonial Spanish (one list for both east and west Indies) have targeteers as compulsory with a pike option. It seem the bulk of early foot were sword and buckler armed which makes sense in rough terrain. The pike are more for civic militias in the later 16th C. etc.

"Indian allies should increase both warriors and bows to represent Tarascans."

Adding bows might be an good option. Ultimately, to make a historical conquistador style battle you would field one or two battles of Mesoamericans (Aztecs) against a battle of colonial Spanish and a seperate allied battle of Mesoamericans (Tarascans or Tlaxiwhatyoucalls'ems).

Cheers

Nic

PS: I am supposed to be writing a thesis, but Bernal Diaz is on the cards when I finish… if I finish…

All good Nic and thanks again the old Frie Korp Irish and English have been promoted to the painting table.

Cheers,

Just playing with a few ideas to tweak Irregular Wars to make it better – added Indian archers to the Spanish list, separated slingers and archers in the Mesoamerican list and added spearmen (to better stretch of Meso- to include the Incan empire).

Contemplating altering recruitment to include the two compulsory company types plus d4 options rather than d3 – just to up the average number of units on the field.

If there is more feedback, keep it coming!

Cheers

Nic

Well don't know how far you want to go but Manco Inca had pikes made. The Spanish found them in time but they were terrified of the Inca getting Spanish weapons. Manco and a few pals fought mounted with lances and were effective. The Inca also got hold of a few arquebuses enough to be represented in Irregularwars.

For archers the Inca used Anti from the rain forest the Spanish who were scared of them believed they were cannibals and indeed they might have been. Anyhow a nice fit with the rules if you give them a 5+ range and maybe 3 or 4 resolution?

I think your right about recruitment.

Just finished my Redshanks and three bases of English shot.

OOooOOoHhhhh Redshanks!

Are you using the 'New Scots' figures from QRF? I'd love to see how yours work out. I know I should sort some out, but have yet to make any purchases.

Do post picci's somewhere!

Inca horsemen, pike and shot eh? I'll have to look into this – And we already have perceived cannibals in other lists, so the detrimental effect on resolve caused by them can be accounted for. We may have to make a new Inca army list! Afterall, they are not really Mesoamericans unless you've been drinking and squint at the map whilst standing on your head….

Provisional list for Incas – feedback welcomed if not demanded = )

INCAS (I:1, C:6") NW
Company type Coy. size resolve move melee short/long range
COMPULSORY COMPANIES
d4 Big ear nobles(F) 100 5 3"a 4b 5+/–*
d6 Slingers(F) 50 3 4"a 0 4+/5+*
OPTIONAL COMPANIES
1 Incan horse(H) 50 3 6" 3b –/–
d4 Warriors(F) 75 3 3"a 3b 5+/*
d6 Spearmen(F) 100 4 3" 3c –/–
d4 Dart throwers(F) 75 3 3"a 3 3+/6*
d4 Cannibal archers(F) 75 3 4"a 3b 4+/5+*
d2 Incan shot(F) 50 3 3"a 2 3+/5+
1 Priest(F) 25 2 2"a -1 –/–
___________________________________________
a Incan foot never suffer movement penalties.
b Big ear nobles, Incan horse, warriors and cannibal archers receive a +1 modifier in their first MELEE phase
against each opponent.
c Spearmen receive a +3 modifier in any MELEE phase against mounted.

Yes I did use 'New Scots' figures from QRF" they actually look horribly crude unpainted. However with careful painting they look just right. I bought loads of this stuff when Frei Korp was still in business. I was told it was a range designed for a diorama commission. Historical accuracy is high but the execution is crude until painted. Ater a couple of attempts at painting I stuck them in a bag. So rescued by Irregularwars! Cannot send piccies as Mrs Oh has yet to present me with a digital camera. But one day…

I like the Inca list but suggest:

If horse used it must be Lord's company.

No seperate slinger companies just give warriors ranged fire.

I dont think the Inca used Atl Atl so no darts.

Inca spears were quite short and maybe overated here. Of course another company catergory adds to fun so feel free. Alternatively add Colla Bollas (1 or 2) companies with high ranged factor against horse. Low melee factor. For a bit more shock Chimu who had a fierce reputation again 1 or 2 companies.

The best book on all this imho is Hemmings Conquest of the Incas.

I think this is great stuff.

Admittedly the only source I have at hand is the Osprey 'Conquistadores' book which is a good read, but I know Osprey are far from infallible. Ok so:

Historically Manco rode with his chums on the ponies, but that doesn't mean that he 'always' would have – player/scenario choice.
No dedicated slingers.
Warriors receive long range sling fire. To counter them becoming uber-warriors, they should either lose melee (down to 2) but keep the charge bonus, or else lose the charge bonus.
Spear vs horse reduced to +2 modifier (they were still 6' long).
The Osprey volume believes that the Equadorian and coastal tribes used the atl-atl. When it comes to the Inca I am no authority to say otherwise.
Chimur and Colla auxiliaries added.

How about:

INCAS (I:1, C:6") NW
Company type Coy. size resolve move melee short/long range
COMPULSORY COMPANIES
d4 Big ear nobles(F) 100 5 3"a 4b 5+/–*
d6 Warriors(F) 75 3 3"a 2b 5+/5+*
OPTIONAL COMPANIES
1 Incan horse(H) 50 3 6" 3b –/–
d4 Spearmen(F) 100 4 3"a 3c –/–
d2 Incan shot(F) 50 3 3"a 1 3+/5+
d2 Chimϊ Warriors(F) 75 4 3"a 3b –/–
d2 Dart throwers(F) 75 3 3"a 3 3+/6*
d2 Colla bola throwers(F)50 3 4"a 1 4+/–*d
d4 Cannibal archers(F) 75 3 4"a 3b 4+/5+*
1 Priest(F) 25 2 2"a -1 –/–
a Incans never suffer movement penalties.
b Big ear nobles, Incan horse, Chimϊ warriors and cannibal archers receive a +1 modifier in their first MELEE phase against each opponent.
c Spearmen receive a +3 modifier in any MELEE phase against mounted.
d Colla bola throwers receive an additional +1 modifier in any SHOT phase against mounted.

Yes I follow all that. I think down to 2 for warriors and keeping the charge bonus gets the flavour nicely. Its looking good. Now I'm thinking could I stand to rebase my Inca's.

BTW do you know of a good 15mm mastiff?

"BTW do you know of a good 15mm mastiff?"

I asked the same question on another board in here about two weeks ago and got no reply. however, I have found that Splintered Light do both Saxon and Irish war-dogs in 15mm.

The Irish one looks like a wolfhound. link

The Saxon ones look mastiff-esque. link

I'm contemplating going with the Saxon dog, but would necessarily need a different handler.

Nic thanks for that. I like the Saxon dog but they seem to comein packs. As an interim measure I have based up a Minifigs Spanish officer with two old Essex muthical Inca wardogs, Incas could have had war llamas or war gueanea pigs- but not dogs. Any how it looks cool.

I'm mulling over a variant of your is it raining rule to simulate the impact on resolve of Aztecs capturing a Spaniard. Of interest to you at all?

"I'm mulling over a variant of your is it raining rule to simulate the impact on resolve of Aztecs capturing a Spaniard. Of interest to you at all?"

Short answer is jet-lagged.

Long answer is yes, I'd be keen to have a look at what you come up with. I've no idea how you might pull something like that out of the rain rules, but I'm also having a struggle trying to make sentances that work…

When you come up with something, drop me an email at irregularwars@gmail.com

Cheers!

Nic

Cossacks in Siberia could be an extension list -shame the Kremlin miniatures are no longer available with their hordes of Siberian tribesman.
Love the rules by the way -now digging out all those Foundry Conquistador/Sea dog figures that have been sitting in drawers all these years.

Thanks mashrewba, that's good to hear!

Cossacks anywhere are a bit out of my knowledge area, but that's not to say that expansion list would not be mightily welcome = )

I haven't done much research into this but there is a Conquistador aspect to the Cossacks.
Mainly foot troops with lots of firearms, but armour and swords as well.
Forces of less than 1000 men, lots of big boats, ambushes, attacks on fortifications, ruses, betrayals, traps etc etc.
The Siberians seem to range from Tartars to stone age Inuit types mainly armed with bows.
There was a good piece in Miniatures Wargames 23.
There were some streltsi involved at one point.