"vote: Ending of new BSG series...keep it or krop it?" Topic

The recent thread on the upcoming movie "Avatar" was on my mind as I watched the final discs of the new "Battlestar Galactica".

After several months watching them pretty regularly, I found that about halfway thru the show's run it started to become a shambles of plot lines, vague, rambling high-school philosophy, and childish theology. Not only was the show hard to follow but I started to get to the point where I was fatigued by how miserable the lives of the characters were.

The ending continued this trend. A mish-mash of simplistic evolutionary mush with some pop science thrown in, I continued watching just b/c I wanted it to END and be done with it.

I feel compelled to vote "krop it" on the ending, altho I felt that the "realism" style of the show and much of the acting was excellent. And the special effects were also nicely handled.

So wouldn't tank the series, just warn a good friend that the ending doesn't cut it.

It would be much better, if reduced down to a 1.5 – 2 hour action flick, with lots of combat, and less of the political crap, and mindless, meaningless drama…..

More special effects please, and less dialogue.

With the first BSG I always wanted to see a good miniseries where they made it to Earth and in somehow found a way that they could then defeat the Cylons in a glorious battle filled with special effects. The new BSG at least got to end, but it did so in an intellectual way, not the visceral battle I had hoped for.

BSG was a wonderful show, but you're far from the first person to point out that the story arc was deeply flawed. The writing, as in the dialogue, was wonderful, but the authorship was terrible after first season. After that, it basically was missing some kind of vision of Where The Series Is Going. The plot meandered, contradicted itself, and was forced to rely on heavy-handed flashbacks to ret-con foreshadowing in. "…and they have a plan." LOL

The acting, directing, special effects, scenery, costumes and music were fantastic. Clearly, the workmanship was great, it almost made up for the lack of creative vision.

Personally, I think it's better to simply take the miniseries and season one and then go from there, or hypothesize alternative escaping fleets as some of the fanfic has done.

And normally I HATE fanfic.

I wouldn't have minded an intellectual ending at all. It's just that the ending they delivered didn't have EITHER action OR intellectual content. What was missing from the message was his point.

Loved the ending, felt like it paid off the investment of years of viewing.

It could be argued that any attribution of supernatural intervention to worldly phenomena is childish, so this dig doesn't really make any sense and at the end of the day the series was meant to be entertaining fiction, not another Elron-style cult recruitment exercise.

I totally disagree with Top Gun Ace; last thing I think SF film needs is another action flick vaguely disguised as "Syfy…" With that said, I agree with Wellspring that an intellectual ending would be satisfying, but the one we got was not. IMHO, if I were to change it, I would have the Colonials (and perhaps the Cylons too!) rejecting God and God's plan for them, and strike out in a self-deterministic way. Of course this ending may not float with the religious crowd, but I think if I were in that position, and I found out God was using me as a lab rat in his social evolution experiments, I'd repudiate God and use my Free Will to do my own thing…

Damon.

I found the ending to really poor and poorly executed. It seemed as if the writers must have written themselves into a hole. The series writing as a whole was so good I dont think they knew how to properly end something of such vast magnitude. Although babylon 5 did it rather nicely, providing they had skipped season 5.

The more I look back on it the more I hate the BSG ending.
They may as well have had Baltar wake up after a night of heavy bebauchery, look around and say, "What a crazy dream!"

It hasnt given me the urge to watch Caprica or get excited about any more of this joke.

To put it another way, you get Sylar for 4 seasons and in the last episode he turns into the ghost whisperer…

I was really impressed at how the storyline tied together at the end. I was expecting a whimper and I got the bang the series deserved.

The whole series, I was trying to figure out who the 6 in Baltar's head was, and then they added the Baltar in the 6's head. The only explanation that made sense, given the story elements, was supernatural, some kind of messenger from a higher power (in the series, God, the Creator). But I was sure they would chicken out from that and give us some cockamanie future Cylon tech explanation … but they didn't. The writers had the s and did it right.

Moreover they kept the characters human which kept that part of the story turning on faith. As Baltar finally admitted to everyone "I see angels" even though he knew he might be disbelieved. The point though was that he finally believed it himself, that there was a higher power, that it had a role for him, and that he couldn't just turn his back to it and stay selfish. That is what faith is about.

Last was the elephant in the room for the whole series. Clearly humans and Cylons were one species (they could impregnate each other, remember?) which was a point never taken up directly -- none of the characters ever reasoned it out from evidence. But there were tons of hints of previous cycles of humans creating robots who revolt and evolve themselves into humans who create robots who … etc. Humans and Cylons are two sides of the same species that reflect each other. Most good science fiction is a mirror held up so we can see ourselves, and we see that here.

So let's say you're telling that story. What's the point of a story of warring cycles where one side defeats the other? That is so depressing, it isn't a meaningful victory, because eventually it's just going to start all over again.

The only meaningful conclusion to that saga -- the only possible happy ending if you like to put it that way -- is to have the two races reconcile and settle the new world together. And they did.

Of course that's not forever, and thus there were hints at the end the humans were creating robots again.

I do agree some of the storylines in the middle of the last season seemed to meander. I remember nodding off during a couple of them … though, as someone put it above, the workmanship was so excellent it was easy to get drawn back in.

However, I think that, knowing the direction the story ultimately goes, if you watch those same episodes again, you'll find they fit in much better than you thought the first time.

Peyton Space

I agree with Donrice wholeheartedly. I enjoyed the series throughout, and the ending too.

Furthermore, there WAS an epic battle at the end, resulting in the defeat of the ultimate Cylon baddies. What more can you ask for?

But is it TRULY 'over?'

There were humans left behind in the 'colonies' as well as the cylon 'centurions' that were 'left to go their own way/find their own destiny' when the fleet got to the SECOND 'earth'…

We also have 'Caprica' and that direct to DVD/Blu Ray 'from the cylon perspective' THE PLAN….

Soooo….taking a page from the JJ Abrams 'Treknology'….I think that there are 'alternate BSG worlds/dimensions' for every 'decision' that was made…a new 'universe' calved/cloned off…(pardon the pun!) and in one of those 'alt-bsgverses' STARBUCK was even MALE I'd bet!

Great special effects, sets, props…interesting characters, some of the episodes even great…but it 'wandered'…(like making 'blind hyperspace jumps' only in how things were connected)…

Bad Humans, Good Cylons…good-looking BAD humans, good-looking good/bad cylons….etc and lotsa 'pew-pew-pew' space battles…(but not nearly enough!)

I'd collect both the original series and finish collecting the rest of the 'new' series/extra movies/Caprica etc…but just like the 'new' trek (due out on DVD/Blu Ray in two weeks?)…it's an ALTERVERSE…just like 'V' and a 'The Prisoner' (it's either out/coming out or is out), with Ian McKellon?/Gandalf/Magneto as Number 2 in the 'Village'

Or look at what they did to 'Lost in Space' as a Movie?

What next…'VTTBOTS'/Land of the Giants/Time Tunnel' and how many remakes of 'Poseidon/Adventure?'

Now what WAS the question? Krop or keep? They'll do whatever generates the most 'revenue'/marketability…why would you think anything else?

Slishfully,
Sgt DWW-btod

Junk the ending. Mixing "angels" and sci-fi takes a really deft hand, otherwise it's like dipping salmon in peanut butter.

Babylon 5 did it just fine with the Vorlons.

Battlestar Galactica's take smelled of fish and Jif.

I also agree with Donrice.

I used to talk this over with a friend who was is a fan.

I'd put the question, "What happens when they arrive at Earth"?

If they arrived during "today" time, then we just stare up and shrug. The Cylons follow and blow us all to crap (which in a way is what I thought had happened at the end of the 3rd series.). They can't arrive in the past(but wait…), and if they arrive in the future the series will have to postulate what that would be like. So I thought that the "get to Earth" thing was always going to be a dead-end for the writers, and the story would always be about the search, not the finding.

But they bowled me a wrong-un! The series wrapped up with some deft dodging of the problems of the original postulate (that _we_ were the 13th tribe). I thought it was very satisfying.

For me, the only nagging problem is that the original planet that the 13th tribe went to was called "Earth". Well, our planet is really called "Dirt"* isn't it. Or "Mud", "Terra" or "Soil". It is a bit odd for people with planets called cool names like "Caprica", "Jeesup II" or some-such to have a mythical planet specifically called "Soil". Really! Sol III?

G^is,
JohnG
*I think, like Clarke, it should really be called "Ocean".

I just finished the series myself last week. I sat and thought about how I felt the end was put together and I've come to the conclusion that it turned out ok.

They wanted to put and end to it, instead of leaving it open for some sort of continuation, and I thought they did a good job of that. I can definitely say I wouldn't have preferred a cataclysmic ending. After suffering along with the characters through 4 seasons, it was refreshing to see that they were getting a fair start on a new planet.

Some things I didn't like:

1 – Starbuck. I wasn't a huge an of her from the get go but she got better as time went on. Watching her disappear 'in plain veiw' at the end was disappointing, if only because it was 'magical' and didn't really seem to jibe with the rest of the series.

2 – 2nd Earth. I still don't understand why they bothered with this. I think it's a sideplot that could have been left out with no effect on the story, since ti had no effect on the story anyway.

Overall the series was good. I wish they could have kept more space combat in the series, I really enjoyed that aspect of it in the first two seasons and would have liked to have seen more later on.

The BSG ending was crap.

Chuck the tech (up to and including the toilet paper), I want to go live in the dirt and mate with neanderthals!

Yea, that makes sense… /sarcasm

Good show. Weak ending. I can understand our major characters wandering off to live by themselves and I can understand spreading out instead of clustering into one city, but throwing your ships into the Sun and breaking down into groups of 20 or so just screams at me "We'll all be dead by the first winter!" I mean who gets to live with the doctor?
Didn't like Starbuck disappearing too.

Can someone explain to me exactly what it was I watched? To be honest I found it a massively overhyped anticlimax. I didn't see any reference to God at the end at all. Maybe I'd dropped off?

I loved the whole series except the last 20 minutes. I would really love if they did the first Cylon war as a series from start to finish, there would be more than enough battles from space to ground I think that would be fantastic.

The end was abysmal. I mean really really bad.
Then again the show was good, got worse, hit another high point when they dropped the cap ship onto the planet (ignore for a moment why they sacrificed the other better cap ship pointlessly) and then just kept getting worse with no let up.

Red Fox: I didn't see any reference to God at the end at all. Maybe I'd dropped off?

I'd say so. :)

Throughout the series, mythology was mentioned frequently, both to drive plot, to explain motivations, and to contrast the two species, Humans and Cylons.

Humans worshiped 12 gods although there was a 13th god who had been abandoned in the past. Likewise there were 12 planets with a 13th lost planet, 12 tribes with a 13th lost tribe, etc. The gods were not all named but tended to have Greco-Roman-Mediterranean names and roles and were prayed to as appropriate to their area of influence.

Cylons were monotheists, worshiping a single entity named "God". There were 12 Cylon models (interestingly, corresponding to the 12 human gods). Some Cylon models were very religious, others more pragmatic, and one is an atheist (ironic because he infiltrated humans in the guise of a priest).

One Cylon model, played by actress Lucy Lawless, began pragmatic but experienced a religious epiphany and thereafter became obsessed with achieving a glimpse of God/heaven through the mechanism of repeatedly dying and resurrecting to try to recall "the other side".

An un-numbered, un-counted type of Cylon, the hybrids which controlled their starships, appeared able see part of God's Plan in some uncommunicable parallel consciousness-state, and in several episodes a hybrid functions as an oracle, with characters interviewing it for guidance and trying to interpret its garbled speech as prophecy.

A key plot driver was the Cylon model 6 appearing in Baltar's head, trying to recruit him to the Cylon cause by (among other whiles) telling him the Cylon God was superior to the human gods, that God had a Plan, and that Baltar had a key role to play in this Plan.

Later in a twist of ironic symmetry, it turned out that the Cylon model 6 who was in love with Baltar (Caprica-6, I think?) also had a vision appearing in her head, who looked like Baltar.

***SPOILER WARNING***
In the final episode we learn that a lot of this is true. There _is_ a God, and He does have a Plan, of which the Cylon plan was an imperfect interpretation. The two visions are actually angels that only their hosts can see. So we have a Cylon-6 angel who appears to a key human and a human-Baltar angel who appears to a key Cylon. They speak of God's Plan (I think they actually say "God" at least once but frequently they refer referentially to "Him"). They are party to God's Plan but aspects of it and of God's workings are mysterious even to them.

***SPOILER WARNING****
The humans and Cylons abandon their technology and settle our earth in its distant past.

***SPOILER WARNING****
The last or next-to-last scene in the series is in modern day earth where we see the Baltar and Cylon-6 angels walking and conversing about God's Plan, where it has taken the races, and alluding to the cycle starting again. Alongside this we see news story images of more and more sophisticated robots being developed.

Don, cheers. I had obviously clocked the references all through the series, that didn't need explaining. It was the end, and the angel thing that I must have missed. I just came to the conclusion that since Caprica and Baltar are cylons they won't die and saw the new cycle beginning. To be honest, I was expecting "proof" of god, not just reference.

Red Fox: To be honest, I was expecting "proof" of god, not just reference.

LOL! That can never happen. If there could be proof of God, there would be no need for Faith.

The BSG writers are smart enough to realize this so they handled the question accordingly.

(I'm not religious personally but I was educated by Jesuits and have always found discussions and logic about faith fascinating.)

When did Baltar become a cylon?

I guess while I got the mythological references I never got out of the end that it was determined there was a god, or goddesses.

One could argue that since the baltar/6 imaginations are seen alone that might imply something is going on (I just think it was a bad plot device they couldn't figure out how to tie up in the end.)

Frankly, I found the whole religious got old and nearly almost turned me off from the series entirely.

Grabula: When did Baltar become a cylon?

He didn't, Red Fox was mistaken. Baltar is a human who received divine guidance. Baltar was selfish and unwilling to accept his part in God's Plan, so the angel that appeared to him took the form of his obsession, the Cylon model 6, to better coax / convince him.

One could argue that since the baltar/6 imaginations are seen alone that might imply something is going on (I just think it was a bad plot device they couldn't figure out how to tie up in the end.)

Whether it was a bad plot device … who can say, that is up to the viewers to decide for themselves. But you're correct that since only he could see the vision, he had to evaluate whether he himself was sane, whether he should trust his own visions -- sane or not -- and whether he cared that other people thought he was insane. Quite a dilemma for such a vain man. Ultimately he concluded that if he had faith, he could accept his role, and then he could tell others, and if they thought he was crazy, well, that didn't matter.

Frankly, I found the whole religious got old …

Fair enough. You aren't alone.

As you can tell, I found it fascinating and one of the most important aspects of the series.

BSG suffered from the same problem as a lot of TV series that the team behind it don't know if it will survive for another season, or OTOH if they will be forced to try and extend the series for another season to milk the franchise.

I thought it dipped badly in season three, then started to pick up in season four and the ending was good.

donrice [me]: Baltar is a human who received divine guidance.

While true, Red Fox was speaking of the Baltar in the last scene of the series. This is the other Baltar, the vision-Baltar who earlier appeared only in Caprica-6's head. In the last episode this vision-Baltar is revealed to be an angel.

The angel-Baltar wanted to influence Caprica-6 to work towards God's Plan, so to better do this he took the form of her obsession, the human Gaius Baltar whom she was in love with. Thus Caprica-6 became a Cylon receiving divine guidance, in symmetry with the human she was in love with.

…you folks DO realize just how 'confusing' that last bit about the 'cylon angel' and 'human angel' appearing to both Baltar and #6 SOUNDS don't you????? until of course…they both appeard to BOTH of the characters at the VERY end before they 'jumped ahead' several thousand years to what appeared to be the start of 'another cycle'….

But that's another story…oh…right…it is…and it's called 'the plan'…just released on DVD/Blu-ray (from the Cylon perspective and all that!)…

And of course, Razor and 'Caprica' and what next to 'milk' yet more money from 'fans?'…..

*sigh….
Sgt DWW-btod

I thought the ending was pretty poor! Lots of things made zero sense. Let's send the Galactica into the Sun. So that all the med tech and machinery on it (or lack there of) will ensure the deaths of hundreds of those hurt or wounded in the latest battles with the Cylons. Yeah, made sense. The writers had no clue. Sorta reminded of the SHIELD finale. Great series. The ending just could not live up to the expectations created throughout the life of the series. The Shield WAS an intense series too.

Thanks,

John

I was a little disappointed with the ending, and really the series as a whole.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it, and watched every episode -- but I don't feel it lived up to the promise of what it *could* have been.

After the miniseries it looked like RM was going to give us exactly what he promised – gritty, hard core, realistic sci-fi about people trying to survive in space. We got some of this in Season 1, and bits and pieces in Season 2. Looking for a source of water, food, parts, internal problems within the fleet. This is what the series should have been about.

Instead it got off the rails onto this whole mysticism thing, which – while interesting at times – I think failed to be as engaging as the other alternative could have been. I think the overall plot of the show suffered from a very real case of "let's just make it up as we go along." RM said that he wound up pitching most of the series bible partway though the first season. . . I think it showed and the series suffered for it.

Still. . . it was worth watching. . . I've got the first couple seasons plus razor on DVD. . jury is still out on the plan. Hopefully at some point somebody else will take a crack at giving us the series that BSG could have been.

Criticisms aside – the acting, Special FX and sets were incredible. The writing itself at times was outstanding as well. I think episode 1.4 is possibly some of the most powerful TV I have ever seen.

TheStarRanger, did you ever see the trailer made by Richard Hatch and his associates before the new series was green-lighted? It might have been the best SF movie that was never made.

voting thus far: 16 Krop, 6 keep.

My non-sci-fi friends are overwhelmingling "krop". But of course, they aren't geeky enough to post here. :)

I think they could have cleaned up the end and avoided some of the more pathetic plot endings…hump a neanderthal? C'mon! Toss all the technology into the sun? No one with a kid who might need antibiotics is going to do that. You'd have to be a serious technophobe, and 30-40K people aren't going to come to a unified consensus to "primitivize" their lives, especially since they're totally unequipped to live a primitive life. Most of them have probably never left the world of complete plumbing. Dig one latrine, or die of the many diseases that kill those who fail to dig latrines probably (cholera anyone?) and that'll cure you of your interest in a primitive life.

Also, the God that sends angels isn't going to waste time with people who aren't ready to receive them like Baltar.

Oh, and one could go on, and on, and on…

HesseCassel: … the God that sends angels isn't going to waste time with people who aren't ready to receive them like Baltar.

Actually, those are exactly who the angels get sent to. Read your Old Testament some time.

People who know their part in God's Plan and act to further it for the sheer moral goodness of it? No need to send them angels, they know what to do and are doing it.

People with an integral role to play who are too selfish or short-sighted to do what is needed? That is who needs the nudging, the convincing, the coercion. They get the angel visitations.

BSG suffered from a lack of vision, an inability to plan for the whole story (due to fears of cancellation each season/half season), and decisions to keep popular characters around despite the impact on the story.

When the show was good, it was very good. In the first two seasons, there is enough momentum that you move past the plot holes and inconsistencies without really noticing them.

The second season has a forced ending that attempts to tie up loose strings, but ends up creating massive problems for the show once it was continued.

More and more episodes involved long, boring pseudo-philosophical discussions, rather than advancing the story. The human survivors grow more and more incoherent and self destructively selfish in their political games.

There are episodes that shine, even into the final half of the fourth season, but in the end, the writers have painted themselves into a corner that they use god-magic to try to escape from.

Personally, I think it was a mistake to try to wrap up all the loose strings. Galactica has always been about the journey, and has ultimately failed when it tries to show the ship reaching a destination.

don – you misunderstand.

Baltar is still worthless even at the end, and hasn't really progressed morally. The whole constant interaction with an angel had nearly zilch affect on him, and didn't bring about any particularly significant actions. It was the work of a god who expects very little, and certainly doesn't parallel Moses, for example.

Overall, the theology of BSG was misconceived and underdevleoped. Pretty much what you expect from people who neither know much about it nor have an interest in learning more.

I guess what i'm saying is that a frosh theology major could've written better plot lines, and despite his many scenes and much air time, Baltar doesn't develop into much more than the narcissistic loser he starts as, angels or no.

But that's neither here nore there. The count is now nearly 3-1 in favor of "Krop".

Also, Joedog makes some nice points with which I heartily agree.

HesseCassel: don – you misunderstand.

Baltar is still worthless even at the end, and hasn't really progressed morally.

I quite disagree. Baltar did progress morally by the end. See my posts earlier in this topic about why I think that.