"Soldier inadequate poses" Topic

A suggestion,something different for all scales and most periods.
Seeing all these Airfix boxes(on an earlier thread)is a great trip to our youth for most of us.
Many of us started their wargamer,modeler,collector activities with this Airfix boxes.
So of course you must remember some of these boxes contained figures that somehow seemed inadequate in actual close quarter battle!
By this I mean the almost omnipresent officer looking through his binoculars(these days you will notice some of us manufacturers make them just holding their binoculars,the lying down wounded(some of us do use them),standing wounded,firing to a high point(US Marines set)…I could go on…
In your opinion what poses should be avoided and which are most relevant in a set of say 5 soldiers per pack,considering the aspects of:
1-poses 2-weapons(5 rifles only VS 4 rifles and an Sub machine gun,a mix etc.) 3-head gear(a variety or just helmets on all 5).
Best regards
wargames48.blogspot.com

I want to see the same equipped soldier in the standing, kneeling, and prone poses. In skirmish, I enjoy the visual of the stance instead of a marker on the table.

They do not need to be firing, but need to look the part of being in/ near the action.

No more pointing officers, surely their arms must get tired eventually.

I noticed more extraneous figs in recent plastics. For gaming I would want the basics; stand ready, march, stand fire, load, kneel fire, kneel ready. If you want dioramas, you need more variety, but to have a bunch of figs in one box pointing is a lot of useless plastic/lead, IMHO.

Pretty much I agree with monongahela.

I never liked the prone soldiers or the crazy charging poses

An infantryman spends a significant amount of his time on his tummy.

I think you should make a pack of guys drinking from cups, all in different poses.
--
Tim

Check out some of the poses in this pack. Are they fighting or dancing?

link

I painted up some Brigade Victorian gangsters (Firefighting Club to be precise) the other day. One of them has his hands on his hips. ???

Perris- LOL!

Pulp Figures are nice – but too many are in static diorama poses rather than in wargaming ones. In the same way, some scifi or fantasy figures are in absurdly animated poses.

What you want is a pose that shows the character is alert and ready for action.

"Are they fighting or dancing? "

I started humming hootenanny music as soon as I saw some of them.

I don't like prone figures – they're harder to pick up.
The important thing in plastics is to have an appropriate mix. Usually they have too many machine guns and not enough rifles for ww2 sections.

The specification of 5 figures confuses me somewhat. I want way more variation than 5 in a box of 40.

We need more overhead bayonetting figures.

cf. figure 2, row 2: link

or surrending ones… (same row, last one).

If the companies feel they must put in the "artistic" poses, at least shove them all on one sprue, and only have 1 of each. They are a waste of space and money otherwise.

I feel we can never have enough blokes shooting at the sky or trying to club their opponents with their rifle butts. Running with arms outstretched sideways is also another good pose (ideally with a rifle/mg in one hand and a full ammo box in the other).

"I think you should make a pack of guys drinking from cups"

One of the 8th Army sets (maybe the ESCI one?) has a figure sitting on an oil drum eating something with a spoon, except the spoon is aimed at his ear. They include several of these useful figures.

Non fighting types are handy though. Those Emhar WW1 tank crews wielding spanners, looking at clipboards and carrying boxes turn up all over the place in my 20mm armies. Easy enough to carve new hats on them as the plastic is quite soft and many of them them are wearing generic overalls. I also really like the Emhar British officer in shorts with a map, he turns up a lot too. I even managed to get him into a jeep (still with his map).

Nice topic.

This is simply a list of my preferences and my tastes. I don't want to imply to all the hard working sculptors out there that I am any kind of "authority" on taste or that everyone (or anyone) should conform to my idea. But I like the question, so here are my personal mores.

Poses I find most useful:
Firing – Standing (leaning FORWARD), Kneeling, Prone
Alert – Weapon at Port or Barrel Down
Moving Forward

Least Universal poses:
Firing from an awkward/action pose stance
Firing upward or downward
Pointing/Firing one way and looking another
Running one direction and firing/looking another
Extreme Charging or HtoH pose (HtoH pose is great in Ancient/Fantasy figs, but not in Modern/SciFi)

Specifically to the question, in a 5 figure pack, I would like a fire team distribution like this:
1 Leader with SMG and/or Command pose
1 to 2 Riflemen Standing (Firing or at alert)
1 to 2 Riflemen Moving Forward
0 to 2 Riflemen Kneeling
1 Squad Support Weapon at Alert or Firing

As an example, here's Copplestone's standard Assault Troopers Pack:
link
Look at pack FW8

From left to right:
Figures 1,3,5 are exactly what I look for, 3 is obviously the squad leader
Figure 2 has a support weapon but is firing from a unnatural stance
Figure 4, it's not quite clear in the pic, but he is rounding a corner, nice figure, but to me, it throws off the symmetry. A "specialist" pose rather than a pose for the standard rank and file.

Not to pick on Mr. Copplestone, his figures are my absolute favorites and I own over 200 of those FW guys. But I do substitute for the support weapon and I often substitute for the "rounding the corner" rifleman.

My $.02 USD

Guiscard

The specification of 5 figures confuses me somewhat.
AONeill,my production was going to have 4 soldiers per blister,1/48 scale,but since you guys use mostly 10 soldier Infantry sections,5 would be half a section.
The weaponry variation is explained due to finding 5 rifles boring,so 4 rifles and 1 SMG would be more fun,plus that was the ratio for German paras,and sometimes the Russians had platoons equipped solely with SMG´s.
Also for the light machine gun blister I might propose the following combination:
1 Lmg ,1 ammo carrier,2 Smg,1 Rifle(so would this be ok?).
Wargames48.blogspot.com

"One of the 8th Army sets (maybe the ESCI one?) has a figure sitting on an oil drum eating something with a spoon, except the spoon is aimed at his ear. "

I share a works canteen with this guys descendants.

Graham

Perris0707:
"Check out some of the poses in this pack. Are they fighting or dancing?"

I particularly like the guy jumping over a barrel(?)!

bruntonboy: you're the second contender for my most amusing comment of the month award, the Golden Aspergillium. Awarded for making me spray my monitor with tea.

Maybe they are "break" dancing. Meaning they are dancing in a way that will break something or someone.

I don't think any one pose mentioned over another is more "realistic", not even when you calculate time spent in a certain pose. That is except the obviously unusual or strange poses you see. But in general, one pose is as realistic as another and it all comes down to taste.

Sure, soldiers spend a lot of their time in combat on their tummys. They also spend a significant amount of the most decisive moments in combat shooting, running, or otherwise doing something more active. You don't assault an enemy position after you've suppressed it while lying on your stomach! Soldiers also spend a lot of time out of contact, but near the action such as alert and patrolling.

All of these, including prone are all realistic positions for soldiers to be in if depicting soldiers in combat.

There, now that that "one pose is more realistic than another" nonsense is out of the way…

It comes down to taste.

I personally dislike the LOOK of prone models. I just don't like how when they get into close combat or are moving from one position to another they look so…lifeless.

"Is everyone dead?"

"Nope, we are just resolving melee."

Unless it is a support weapon such as an AT rifle, I don't use prone poses if I can avoid it. I especially don't like mixing prone with standing, but again, that's my own aesthetic.

My favorite poses that, to me, look best on the table are patrol poses. I like the alert, walking upright, guns at port or at the ready (especially LMGs) poses. I don't mind kneeling (both firing and scanning) and mix them in some squads. I also don't mind firing models and think they mix nicely with patrol poses giving a nice overall "in action" feel.

I really dislike the firing over the shoulder LMG poses. This just makes it problematic and silly looking in games that count individual casualties if you remove the holder.

Now for me, the way to get me to buy a range of miniatures is to follow these rules:

1. There must be a large selection of rifle poses. There should be at least one unique rifle pose per rifleman in a squad of that nation. A few extra is even better. For most nations, this is a minimum of 8 poses. 10 or more is better. I don't mind a few prone riflemen in there if I can still make a rifle squad with firing and patrol posed models.

2. There MUST be a variety of LMG poses. I will not buy any range of WWII miniatures unless I can get at least one LMG team advancing at the ready. For Germans I require at least two (to do two unique LMG teams for Panzergrenadier squads).

Again, I don't mind prone, but I need to be able to get at least one or two teams in the pose I like.

And please avoid two things: First, no more stupid firing from a pile of bricks or rubble or a wall or stones. That one is just plain silly looking for use in gaming IMO. Second, try to avoid the German LMG over the shoulder firing, or at least do NOT make it the only pose you offer.

3. It is almost necessary to have enough models in the range to do the minimum stuff a platoon would use. That means lots of rifles, LMGs, Loaders for those LMGs, NCOs and squad leaders, an HMG team, an AT team, a mortar team, a sniper, an officer, and a radioman or radio team.

An AT gun crew, tank crew, soldiers at rest, playing cards, or higher echelon command models can come later. Though by this point I am almost seeing an AT gun crew as essential these days.

I generally won't buy any miniatures from a line if I can't make up the basic platoon and do it in the poses I like. Which is a shame because there are some nice ranges out there I haven't dived into because of this.

So that's my list of essentials and taste in poses. YMMV.

Iron Ivan Keith,great to read your lines,I agree with you 100%,I have(so far mind) at least 10 different poses for each nation or troop(DAK,PARAS,Comandoes)etc.
I was going to do blisters of 4 but shifted to 5!
1-I gather you would favor 5 rifles,on the rifle blister.
2-the second blister will include one Lmg two Smg a loader and another rifle armed soldier.
(this still change in some cases to 2 Lmg 2 loaders and a Smg.
By the way my Lmg are usually fired from the hip whilst kneeling,some are in the semi prone position…
Gui

US infantry squads and pz grenadiers are 12 men.
Late war german infantry 9.
Then there's the platoon command element which was all sorts of sizes.

So that's kind of a problem for your 5 figure blister fits all.

I would advise you to sell squads, platoons and maybe offer single figures at a minor premium of some sort with minimum order necessary or some such.

I want to see the same equipped soldier in the standing, kneeling, and prone poses. In skirmish, I enjoy the visual of the stance instead of a marker on the table.

They do not need to be firing, but need to look the part of being in/ near the action.

No more pointing officers, surely their arms must get tired eventually.

I agree, except I would say only two poses are normally needed: advancing and prone.

What I find really lacking is enough men in a prone position, whether firing or not. As someone said, WW2 infantry spent a lot of time on their tummies. What do you do when someone starts shooting at you? Hit the dirt, right? Also, it'd be nice to have figures in fox holes (no I don't want to drill holes in my table). Standing firing is only useful if you're playing Stalingrad or some other house-to-house fighting in a built-up area. Otherwise, you only stand up in order to move.

On the other hand, most LMG teams seem to come in the prone position, so we need more of them advancing (1 guy with the gun, another with the ammo). Men carrying mortars/ammo would also be nice.

That is some good advice AONeil so maybe that is why most manufacturers have 4 soldier blisters,will be considering going back to 4 as previously planed.
donlowry prone soldiers are receiving very little preference sure it makes a lot of sense of course,lying down shooting is the more accurate position in action,but people generally prefer soldiers standing up or kneeling.
I do have prone aswell but not that many,and like some one said before,mostly for bigger weapons.
As to soldiers advancing carrying their Lmg´s etc.it will be done,first batches will have them firing mostly but for a change,those will follow.
Gui

I would personally love to see some one release a line of figs that represent guys off duty.Guys sittin around the chow wagon and eating ,playing cards ,goofing off,playin instruments an even reading mail .Those kinda guys are priceless for diaramas or to establish rear area (remfs)..

Take a look at Woodbine. If you include the grenadiers/grenade throwers that's 24 different poses. Add to that the NCO's and higher echelon officers and you get a range of at least 35+ different figures. Now that's what I want!

Off duty??ok guys standing around that could also pose as sentries could be done but first all the really relevant like 1 rifles,2 Lmg Smg,Hmg,Mortar,and then!the rest,but it is a good suggestion!
Gui

but people generally prefer soldiers standing up or kneeling.

Who are you going to listen to? Me, or people with money in their hands? Next you'll be telling me that the customer is always right!

people generally prefer soldiers standing up or kneeling.

I think you are right, unfortunately. It still doesn't change the fact that infantrymen spend much of their time prone. I think the reason folks don't like prone figures is because they end up taking up more real estate on a stand. While I prefer them, I find it more difficult to set up a stand with them.

OTOH, givn the sculpting style of some figure lines, a prone figure is probably impossible for some of these sculpters to do nicely.
--
Tim

Like I said before, they do spend time prone. They also spend a lot of time running. And shooting. And when you think about the dynamic and dramatic action of combat that our games are supposed to represent, they spend the most ***decisive*** moments in combat on their feet and fighting.

With that said, why is a pose "more realistic" based on a single factor of "time spent" in that pose. If that is the criteria, then maybe the smoking, drinking, playing cards minis are even "more realistic"…

I don't buy the prone is more realistic argument.

They all are in one way or another unless it is a silly, awkward, or unusual pose.

So again, it comes down to taste. You don't have more visual realism on your table just because you have more prone models laying around, even if that is where a soldier will spend a lot of time.

What makes you think soldiers only fight standing up? Those on the defensive will be prone or, more likely, in fox holes, unless they're in a building or bunker.

I say:

Defenders: prone and/or in foxholes

Attackers: advancing

Misc.: standing, walking etc. (handy for sentries, etc.)

The most classic poses(by the best soldier sculptors of the past),are always good,shooting standing and kneeling,the classic throwing a grenade,and kneeling with bazooka,Lmg etc,although flame throwers are often sculpted standing.
Now the also common officer shooting its revolver or pistol kinda fell into disuse as it poses little stopping power in a game,so this particular one was gradually substituted by some one with an Smg(I have two of those could not resist the classic appeal of the 80ies so DAK set and 8th Army set have their pistol armed officers…but the DAK one also has a big stick grenade on the other hand for attitude!).
I will do prone people:Fallshrimyagers have about 4 already.
Do use a lot of dismounted tank crews in my games so those will be a must too.
Here is a position I always dislike to find on boxes:the guy digging with a spade…I mean come on…its almost a useless in action as unfortunate guys with limb injuries…
Do not mind pointing,halting,or other hand signaling poses but within reasonable numbers in a box or blister.
Gui

Given that the general target market for these things is/was Boys under the age of Ten, I think the variety of poses is spot on.

Whilst you lot may have been born with a dice and tape measure in your hand, my childhood with toy soldiers was actually more about setting up vast battle dioramas sprawled across the Rockery or in the pile of building sand out by the driveway when my Dad was building/extending the house.

I would spend hours setting these things up, and viewing my carefully created vista from every concievable angle – which I attribute to my preference for the visual side of the hobby over the gaming bit.

The chaps with radios, binoculars, etc were essential for this – the dastardly Hun had to capture something before the brave Commandos or 8th Army hove into view!

The guys firing at the sky were also a must given the very three dimensional nature of Rockeries. :)

You have stated your age Chieftain!spot on the very early seventies just like myself!In those days wargaming was secondary to the diorama or scenic aspect of the event!
Even my cousins who were drafted by force to the game found the rules confusing,slow but complimented the setting.
New poses are also out there,that is the new element of white metal minis,in my case 1/48 spin cast added a new aproach to casting quite different from the past solutions,while over the years the main factories of classic 1/32 ,1/72 soldiers did similar positions,the so called cottage industry productions have a kind of freedom granted by less expensive productions,sometimes targeting very specific costumers.
Taste,good anatomic sculpting and today I guess innovating or unusual but realistic viable posing in figures will come forward the next few years as manufacturers cater to the more demanding wargamers.

Like I said before, they do spend time prone.

They spend a lot of time prone. If you haven't served yourself, then talk to anyone who has had time as an infantryman.

They also spend a lot of time running.

Not nearly as much time as you do on your stomach. Sorry. been there, done it, been there, watched the grunts with me – in fact, they stood up more to make sure we knew they were there so we didn't run over them, than they did when pepperpotting. And even then, it was running in a weird way, as close to the ground as they could go.

And shooting.

Which is done prone if the grass permits. Oh, and how do infantrymen usually practice at the range? On their stomachs. All the SMG ranges I ran were fired mostly from the prone position.

And when you think about the dynamic and dramatic action of combat that our games are supposed to represent

I absolutely agree running figures are dramatic, or rather are easier for very poor sculpters to to make dramatic. Prone figures are also dramatic as far as I'm concerned, certainly more dramatic than someone supping from a cup!

they spend the most ***decisive*** moments in combat on their feet and fighting

In close combat, yes. In FIBUA, yes. Elsewhere, not so much. I'm not sure why you are getting so excited over this. Many infantry memoirs remark on how much time is spent crawling.

BTW, I like all kinds of poses, but especially like to have at least some prone troops because that is how troops spent the majority of their time.
--
Tim

Not getting excited Tim, just talking :)

But you still ignored the point of my post: that time spent in a pose doesn't mean a different pose is less realistic…just more common. Which I am not arguing that you said, just that that is a common perception.

And like I said…again…if soldiers DO spend their time in combat running (which they do) and firing from crouch or standing (which they do) and all kinds of other poses (like patrol-which they do), then any of those including prone is as realistic as the others…

I don't have to ever have served to know this. Your service just meant you saw it with your own eyes. And that's great.

I agree about the "as close to the ground" comment. I always think of that German soldier in an almost flat run from the early way (Poland I think). It's really odd looking at first. Battle Honors did a sculpt of that figure which is pretty cool.

picture

So it goes back to taste again.

Isn't that nice?

Mostly I just like arguing with you! haha.

The final issue, especially with pewter minis, is what will actually work in a spin cast mould (mold).

They have to be relatively flat in one plane, hence why most of them tend to be advancing with rifle flat against chest or stomach.

To do something otherwise either creates casting issues with regards gaps between arms and body, or multi-parting, which causes all sorts of wailing and gnashing of people who can't be arsed to glue their little men together.

Lusitanus – I'm not *that* old… I was born in '76, by which time Airfix et al had sort of got a handle on poses… mostly…

I am glad to see this debate has a good number of very interesting lines,it is also a chance to learn from both veterans and those who study like myself and have family that served their countries.
We have been debating from several points of view,manufacturing,wargaming,and historical.
Ok I see,only 6 years younger than me Cieftain,still same generation,in those days Airfix was the best in terms of sculpting along with Britains in some cases.
We all have seen pictures of soldiers walking and running very close to the ground Tim (by the way what is FIBUA??),
Here in Portugal we had a Colonial war that went on for over a decade(1961-74)ended with a dreaded comunist Coup back home and not with military defeat,I have books with pictures of troops running in strange positions carrying their G3 assault rifles close to the ground a foot distance!to this day military academies consider our soldiers the best counter insurgence troops ever.
In the Anzio landing battles British troops developed the Anzio crouch,some veterans talk about it in the Wold at War series,unforgettable still watch it today.
From my experience sculpting figures for wargaming it is much easier to sculpt a man standing than everything else,prone positions are also easy,but running and running in a crouch position is much harder to do,in over 100 figures sculpted I have only about 3 in that position,but guess will be doing more now!!!
Gui

FIBUA = Fighting in built up areas.

Nowadays it's FISH.

Perris, who knew rifle aerobics would become so popular?

The Airfix early Germans with the reverse goose step….. I would like to meet the woman that runs that way but not my German soldiers.

The Marine holding his rifle over his head. This Airfix figure was only good for surrendering on Tarawa. The marines shooting up into the trees were useless too.

The prone figures are near useless.

The kneeling figures are almost as worthless as the prone figures in modern war. A crouching and advancing figure works almost universally. At least by the way I wage war.

Why are prone figures useless? Don't your guys ever hit the dirt?

NO.

The only poses I feel I have little use of are the ones of figures standing at attention or walking totally upright. Airfix had some such poses in their sets. They might have been of some use if there were more such poses in each sets but usually they were all alone with the rest of the figures being more in the action so to speak.

I understand the idea,at 1/48 my sets include at least one figure standing or walking upright.
They do differ from most of the other more active poses,but can have the purpose of representing sentries,or soldiers scouting,marching,etc.
Some soldier producers have groups of 4 sentries in a blister this might be a good idea,but as mine include more than 4 per pack let´s see.
wargames48.blogspot.com

Well, one of the things I did with my BF Omaha Beach US troops was to put all the troops at similar heights on the same base. Prone guys (and the supine guys w/ Bangalores), a down casualty, and the occasional hunched-runner.

Then there were kneeling stands, and finally standing ones.

Do you move prone figures at the same rate as upright figures?

I like a great variety of poses. First off, a pose only looks realistic relative to what the soldier is doing (bayonet charging figure facing a tank?), second, your officer with binoculars, walking wounded, or whatever, can make nice rear area figures, command stands, dioramas, or whatever.

A plethora of poses says I!